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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 08-06-2004, 08:10 PM   #26
BalefireX
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1.5" height without the compensator suggests that it would fit in a 5.25" bay along with a fill/bleed kit correct, or is the compensator required?
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Unread 08-06-2004, 08:11 PM   #27
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either configuration is available
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Unread 08-06-2004, 08:28 PM   #28
BalefireX
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Interesting... premium price compared to the MCP650 though.. are we looking at 3 figures?
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Unread 08-06-2004, 08:47 PM   #29
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not quite, not cheap
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Unread 08-06-2004, 09:17 PM   #30
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i would imagine that is why C - systems doesnt want to raise the price of thier pump's: its ALOT easier to drop $35 then say $87.50 or even $60.

hmmm only 3/8" ID I like that actually, couple nice ideas spring to mind.
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Unread 08-07-2004, 01:12 AM   #31
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I'll bite, Bill. Reliable, designed for no maintenance for several years, specific to electronic cooling, and affordable for a high-end OEM? Spells G5, I'd wager.
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Unread 08-07-2004, 01:29 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerSandwich
Spells G5, I'd wager.
Now that i think about it, I'd almost bet the farm you're right on the money.
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Unread 08-07-2004, 01:53 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Now that i think about it, I'd almost bet the farm you're right on the money.
Actually, I'll go a little farther... I just googled pictures of the G5 cooling system and it is an exact match.
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Unread 08-07-2004, 03:16 AM   #34
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I suppose two pumps would be used in an app where one large one won't fit- think of those chieftech's with two 80mm slots instead of one 120mm

other than that you have added noise, added heat in our application, and 'technically' more potential for maintainence
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Unread 08-07-2004, 11:36 AM   #35
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You guys ever notice how Bill likes to tease us with these guessing games, then gets real quiet when the answer comes out? I think he's avoiding the question of what I won...
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Unread 08-07-2004, 11:53 AM   #36
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a big Mac ?
call whoever
yes HS, you are correct (shit, took a gd road map !)

and now you know the designer of that system, and its provider
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Unread 08-07-2004, 12:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
and now you know the designer of that system, and its provider
Congrats then. That should be quite a plum contract for Swiftech.
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Unread 08-07-2004, 12:19 PM   #38
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noooooo
you missed a clue
it was posted
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Unread 08-07-2004, 12:43 PM   #39
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yea look at the title on that page "Delphi DC pump". Now consider that the Corsair complete kits were made by Delphi...
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Unread 08-07-2004, 12:46 PM   #40
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the elephant in the refrigerator is becoming clear, and bigger
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Unread 08-07-2004, 02:48 PM   #41
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OK so we have a serious mfgr of pumps interested in PC cooling. When will we see a quality self-priming setup with reservoir built into pump inlet? I want I want. I'm tired of Gooping barbs in tupperware!
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Unread 08-07-2004, 02:51 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
redundancy is good, when/if the units are prone to failure
adding the second unit then increases the chance of one of them still operating after the other has failed

would not a single pump of higher reliability be advantageous ?

fritol88
you are looking at the difference between DIY and an engineered solution

If I remember correctly unregistered, you found C-Systems claim of 50,000 hours MTBF for their pumps to be a completely ludicrous proposition at the time they were unveiled, I did too. I believed, and still believe Hotseat's testing claims and rationale for that pump's MTBF rating. You didn't let him off the hook though. Now you sell a pump with the same claim...ironic to say the least.

But which one is more reliable? C-Systems pumps claim the same MTBF your pumps do, and both pumps are engineered by companies with a lot of experience designing cooling solutions for transport equipment like cars, boats, etc. I guess we need to buy some random samples of both pumps and put'em in a loop and wait 'till one breaks. Until that test I don't think the information exists to substantiate a claim of one pump being more reliable than the other.

I doubt C-Systems pumps are prone to failure. They had growing pains because the market blew up on them faster than they anticipated. But I can buy two CSP750's from D-tek and save $10 vs. buying one of Swifttech's pumps, from Swiftech directly. So what's advantageous here?
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Unread 08-07-2004, 03:03 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronspink
Actually, I'll go a little farther... I just googled pictures of the G5 cooling system and it is an exact match.
Interesting. I was guessing 19" rackmount systems.
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Unread 08-07-2004, 03:22 PM   #44
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read the original review thread, you are working apples against oranges

what Dan stated was that the motors were purchased from a vendor who had established MTBF values for the motor (presumably the rotating parts and electronics)
N.B. the pump does NOT have a 50,000 MTBF (as relates to the shaft seal, and the housing seals, etc.)
-> Lee did NOT update the article to reflect this information (why ?)

note that there is much I do not know about the C-Systems pumps, just paying very close attention to what is said by those who do know

Dan, care to comment ?

HAL-9000
being not "prone to failure" is quite different from a MTBF of 50,000 hrs
the MCP600 is a good example, it will never have a MTBF of 50,000 hrs because there seem to be a few 'early failures' which cannot be eliminated, handled under warranty - not mission critical
- Swiftech incurred massive expenses related to solving the pump head problem, (which became a net loss when the pump mfgr decided to sell direct to our distributors)

Swiftech anticipates NONE of these kinds of problems because the MCP650 is a proven and validated design (and because we have a contract)
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Unread 08-07-2004, 04:19 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
HAL-9000
being not "prone to failure" is quite different from a MTBF of 50,000 hrs
the MCP600 is a good example, it will never have a MTBF of 50,000 hrs because there seem to be a few 'early failures' which cannot be eliminated, handled under warranty - not mission critical
- Swiftech incurred massive expenses related to solving the pump head problem, (which became a net loss when the pump mfgr decided to sell direct to our distributors)

Swiftech anticipates NONE of these kinds of problems because the MCP650 is a proven and validated design (and because we have a contract)
I was wondering why you guys ditched the MCP600, its a great pump. Sorry about getting shafted by the mfgr. But the point I was making is that I doubt the CSP750 is prone to being unreliable, and the cost advantage of buying two CSP750's vs. one MCP650. 50,000 hrs MTBF for the motor alone is impressive. Even if the seals are good for "only" 25000 hrs MTBF that's still almost three uninterrupted years of performance. Reliability starts to become measured by other criteria in my mind at this point, like how many times it can be cycled MTBF for instance.

I run a MCP600 pump, have no complaints whatsoever...love the pump. But I'm moving into an Nvidia Ultra 6800 next week for DoomIII reasons, and am going to watercool it. That CSP750 would be a great way to keep the overall flow in the circuit up to par even with the new addition, and with minimal impact and fuss.

That kind of scalability makes those things unique in the business, it definitely has a place in the market. Discreet scalable pumps do have advantages. Jury's still out in my mind regarding overall performance as the sole solution in a rig; but I don't know if the MCP650 is either better performing or more reliable than a CSP750-X2, because that information really isn't available at this stage on account of both products' histories in watercooling being rather recent, and not tested enough by valid independent reviewers. That's my point.
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Unread 08-07-2004, 04:25 PM   #46
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So when you come out with a new pump how do you know the MTBF is over 5 years without actually testing a bunch for over 5 years, it has to be just a, hopefully, educated guess doesn't it?
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Unread 08-07-2004, 04:38 PM   #47
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the 50,000 hr MTBF is not done by a reviewer, only by the mfgr and perhaps then reviewed by an outside lab
(Razor6, a formal write-up is being prepared)

please note that I am not denigrating the C-Systems pump, I even think I have a place for it

"Discreet scalable pumps do have advantages." - unclear
multiple pumps in series ?
multiple pumps in parallel ?

the example that comes to mind is the Exos, why do they use 2 pumps ?
is it fair to say that the Exos pumps ARE prone to failure ? (based on anecdotal forum evidence ?)
other examples ???????

"that information really isn't available at this stage on account of both products' histories in watercooling being rather recent"
no, not so at all; do some investigation before saying such nonsense
the Laing D4 has over 4 yrs service history in solar heating systems - which are far more demanding than watercooling

re the C-Systems - you might be correct, I don't know, but Dan stated that this design did have some years of 'water' service (Dan would have to respond to this point)
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Unread 08-07-2004, 04:44 PM   #48
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off topic, so I hope apples waterblocks are better then corsairs, if they are indeed made by the same company.
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Unread 08-07-2004, 07:22 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
"Discreet scalable pumps do have advantages." - unclear
multiple pumps in series ?
multiple pumps in parallel ?
That is the advantage, you can take your pick. More power or more loops? Its your choice. The units are compact enough you can line three abreast on the floor of a computer case in a 6" x 2" x 2" volume. Dual circuit for dual CPU, seperate video circuit, whatever you want. Your MCW-Chill thing for optimum performance uses three water circuits. CSP pumps would be pretty good solution there I think. Wouldn't be out more than $120 bucks for the pumps either. If I bought three MCP650's, it would literally cost me twice as much for the pumps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
the example that comes to mind is the Exos, why do they use 2 pumps ?
is it fair to say that the Exos pumps ARE prone to failure ? (based on anecdotal forum evidence ?)
other examples ???????
The Exos is a consumer grade "solution" that's designed for OEM stuff. Fill'n forget type appeal. Exos systems in say an Alienware are pretty much designed to never be taken apart. If one pump goes, user never knows., 'puter just locks up every so often. Redundancy with CSP pumps is a fringe benefit, but it's the scalability of the pump's performance that interests me. Just because Exos rigs use dual pumps doesn't infer that CSP's are junk, if that's what your suggesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
no, not so at all; do some investigation before saying such nonsense
the Laing D4 has over 4 yrs service history in solar heating systems - which are far more demanding than watercooling
I don't cruise the solar-heating forums much, sorry. And Laing pumps are generally out in the watercooling market, so I guess I'm wrong on that one. Chalk one up for unregistered. But, in doing my badly needed research I realized the pump Danger Den sells looks eerily like an MCP650. As a matter of fact, the schematics of the pump for both Danger Den and Swiftech appear to be identical. The Danger Den one is $75 instead of $79. Danger Den has been selling that pump for some time. At least all summer I thought you guys had a contract with Laing. There's got to be some difference there, what is it? I'm curious now.

Last edited by HAL-9000; 08-07-2004 at 07:31 PM.
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Unread 08-07-2004, 08:12 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
the example that comes to mind is the Exos, why do they use 2 pumps ?
is it fair to say that the Exos pumps ARE prone to failure ? (based on anecdotal forum evidence ?)
other examples ???????
The dual pumps probably help their flow immensely, pushing it up to a whole 15GPH . The redundancy may help, too.

MCP 650 is the same as the muffled D4 except for a sticker. Swiftech is the sole North American distributor, meaning, I think, that they sell to DangerDen. As for price, I'm guessing that we just have to wait until the inevitable drop comes.
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