Go Back   Pro/Forums > ProCooling Technical Discussions > General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar JavaChat Mark Forums Read

General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 02-19-2005, 03:47 PM   #26
Autobot
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 29
Default

Personally I think Bose's Acoustic suspension system is really quite unigue. Take a gander at it here...
http://qualitysound.bose.com/pg/lear..._challenge.jsp
Autobot is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-19-2005, 05:17 PM   #27
Hotseat
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 62
Default

Ya, that is a sweet set up as well, and in theory you can re-cover the energy.

Whats is also nice about the Bose system, is that it shows it can be done in a rolling proof of concept.

The only issue I know of with the linear system is high un-sprung weight.
But maybe can be over come using suspension geo.

I always wanted them to make a hi-stress demo, and rally or off road vehicle, and I know two people that approached them with no luck

Just one problem, people are going to run feedback from there Bose audio system back into it, and have dancing car contests
Hotseat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-19-2005, 06:49 PM   #28
bobkoure
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA - Boston area
Posts: 798
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autobot
... Bose's Acoustic suspension
Very interesting - essentially a mcpherson strut setup. This suspension does use springs (not very visible in the photos as they're torsion springs - as I remember torsion springs are usually linear, which makes sense, given what they're doing). I do think that some kind of spring (metal, air, whatever) makes it a lot easier to support the vehicle without a constant energy drain - and are a good way to store / recover energy. There are certainly non-spring ways to do lots of mechanical things. I got a look at a Lotus F1 electro-valve head prototype, hmmm... ten years ago, maybe more. But a tulip valve requires no force to remain shut. (and, as a BTW, neither of my street bikes has valve springs - both desmos). Anyway, "no springs" makes me think the stuff hotseat is talking about is further "out there" than this.

Quote:
The only issue I know of with the linear system is high un-sprung weight.
Preaching to the choir - bikes have an amazingly high sprung/unsprung ratio - and the lighter the bike gets the worse it is. According to John Britten (who folks here may or may not have heard of) the reason he came up with a way of making wheels in CF was that the rest of his bike had gotten so light that even with magnesium wheels, his unsprung weight was too high (and he was a whiz with CF, but he wasn't mentioning that part).
Quote:
But maybe can be over come using suspension geo.
Hmmm... well, even if you relocate something or put it on a bell crank, there's still the effect of mass being added to the unsprung weight. Say, for example, if the Bose system was a rotational motor, so you could just attach it like a torsion spring. The intertia of the rotating part would still act as unsprung mass as it would have to be accelerated every time you move the wheel...
bobkoure is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-20-2005, 10:43 AM   #29
Hotseat
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 62
Default

^ No, I have had this same arguement 1000 times in my career. Un-spring mass effect refers to the "un dampened" mass, or in order words, the mass that can not be controled. I understand this has been overcome with additional programming to correct for the linear motors own mass.

But this can also be overcome with geo, and I have designed heavy off road vehicle suspension that where as stable as small cars, in the past.

The demo I seen of the Bose system didn't have springs, but it appears there latest type has, but I would suggest still a total weight savings.

The key to what we are doing is the fluid, which as you likely have guessed, is compressable to some degree. This takes the place of the air/pressure system in the past. It is a hybrid of current semi-active controls and hardware, and the past work done on full hydro control.

The pump need only overcome input / efficent losses, not directly provide full forces. So as you may also suspect, the more bumpy the road, the LESS it needs work.

This is about as much as I can say Bob, but I think you get it

I REALLY want to try it with a rally car, given I will soon have my medical back, thanks to a cornea transplant procedure I have recently undergone.
(Will get my flight medical back soon as well)
Hotseat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-20-2005, 11:52 AM   #30
lolito_fr
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: France
Posts: 291
Default

Might magnetorheological fluids have anything to do with this?

just had to get that word in somehow
lolito_fr is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-20-2005, 06:47 PM   #31
JFettig
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Willmar MN/Fargo ND
Posts: 504
Default

Bill, whats the death/failure rates of your pumps? Havent quite a few of the origional 'swiftech' branded pumps died? and a few mcp600s died right away, I dont see you going out and bashing everyones heads off because of it, but as soon as a competitor shows up your wailing on them.
I inquired about my dead pump and immediately got an e-mail back and they are replacing it with virtually no questions asked. Just like you would do right?
Pm me with some numbers on death rates, I have a close number of c-systems pump deaths.

Jon
JFettig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-20-2005, 07:09 PM   #32
Cathar
Thermophile
 
Cathar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,538
Default

Jon, the difference is what is claimed by the manufacturer/reseller vs what is provided.

Swiftech never said that their pumps had 50000hr MTBF's, and in fact if you pushed Bill on the MTBF of the MCP600 when it was released, he wasn't able to provide one because I don't believe that the OEM manufacturer had a value to give either. Maybe they did, I don't know, but it was never advertised as having a ~7yr MTBF.

What the issue here is when someone comes onto the market with a cheap and poorly made pump, and starts spouting figures for reliability that are the reserve of well designed higher priced pumps.

That the pumps fail is not the issue. The issue is that certain individuals have put their reputation on the line in backing a product that does not even remotely match what was being advertised as its reliability.

Things fail. Fact of life. Quite a different matter to effectively dupe people into buying a faulty product under the pretence that it is better than what it is, and then start back-pedalling and finally dumping the company to divorce oneself from their created liability when the brown stuff hits the fan.
Cathar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-21-2005, 11:28 AM   #33
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default

hey geek, think it out before posting
here is the issue being discussed:
a new pump was released with an exuberant review by Lee and much attention was paid
some slightly pointed questions were asked and largely ignored
orders were placed, pumps shipped - and right off the bat the problems started
mechanical, anodizing, rusty screws, leaking seals, corroded pump internals, etc
and it seems the MkIIs are starting to do the same

now the guy who started this debacle unloaded the company, but still 'looks over its shoulder', but has yet to enlighten the hardware geeks here as to how much shit could come from a new product, before one questions the competence of those involved

now they have a new product, and it may well be good - I've asked their expert for pumps before and received nothing, I doubt I'll test this one either
-> but this is the point, new products should be validated before being dumped on a gullible public

such is not the history of C-Systems
and the past is always the best predictor of the future
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-21-2005, 12:21 PM   #34
Hotseat
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 62
Default

Too the best of my knowledge, C-Systems still has a very low return rate.
However I understand from Dave, there are a few people that can not make there 750 work at all, for more then a few weeks.

I believe they maybe using a very restrictive system, or thermol overloading somehow.

I also believe given the low percentage of returns (around 1%) that this can be explained by simple assembly issues. They have also found that the pumps can be damaged in transit, having seem several that where hit so hard, as too have the screws holding the motor on stripped out, one even had the magnetic cap bent (was not disassembled). They have since changed packaging, with additional protection.

The only issue I see, is long term use under very restrictive use or in series, in which case I would suggest a MAG model or another pump designed for high back pressures. This is why AVT is sponsering a low cost upgrade program with C-Systems. We have to do this with C-Systems as our insurance carrier will not let us do so directly. In a free flowing systems, the 750 runs for years, and AVT still produces them for our applications and OEM orders.

C-Systems only produces the MAG model, and the company was purchased just to secure a supply of these units for there own internal use.

I was in charge of C-Systems when you requested pumps Bill, and personally found your actions as a professional engineer unexceptable, and did not want my company or myself associated with your behavior. It was a personal call, and as I have no partners or public stock holders, I have the option of making said calls.

Enough said, going back into my "hole"
Hotseat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-21-2005, 12:44 PM   #35
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default

thats a heads up response Dave, I doubt you will be faulted for it
a recurring problem with internet 'failure analysis' is that the failures take on disproportionate weight
- but the NPSH issue was very well known at that time due to the PanWorld problems,
and why I was insistent about testing some pumps BEFORE expressing commercial interest
1% ? you know better than anyone else

no argument with your choices, might have been nice to let me know - other than on a forum months later
but apparently I was given what you think my behavior deserved, ok
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-21-2005, 04:26 PM   #36
Belenar
Cooling Neophyte
 
Belenar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Belgium
Posts: 51
Default

Well, I'm not an expert. But it seems to me that C-Systems has realised that the original CSP had things that could be improved (I'm not going to pronounce myself about the quality of the original 750, because I don't have the numbers). They have changed a lot and as far as I can tell everything that has reported problems on the old CSP, has been replaced by other solutions in the new one.
Time will tell if this pump stands the test, but I think there is no need to be negative about it before it even hits the shelves. After all, they ARE trying to make a pump that fits our needs. And as far as I'm concearned, that should be a good thing.
And even Bill found out the hard way that promises on paper aren't allways what they seem ... that goes for every product. The only way to know is putting them in real life situations and see what happens. But I think we ought to be optimistic here ... If the MAG turns out not to be the perfect watercooling pump yet, it sure is a step in the right direction.
C-Systems itself seems to be pretty confident about the pump, offering a 30 month warranty. This could be marketing just to make us believe it is a good pump, but I doubt that any company would give such a warranty on a product they know is prone to failure.
__________________
The fastest cross team around: Team Supreme
Belenar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-21-2005, 09:19 PM   #37
ferdb
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: texas
Posts: 68
Default

I purchased 2 CSP750 MKIIs, one of which had one of the motor mount screws stripped out on arrival. Upon inspection there was very little interference between the hole and the screw threads. Either the screws were not to spec or the holes were drilled too large. I'm not surprised that the motor screws were stripping out with the marginal amount of thread engaging into the metal.

I called c-systems and they promptly sent me a new center section with motor and impeller mounted to the aluminum bulkhead. I rebuilt the motor with the supplied part and installed it a system. It ran for about 2 months before the shaft seal leaked and corroded the motor till it died. I then replaced it with the other CSP-750MII I had, but this one produced a great deal of noise when running. Either the impeller or rotor was hitting something. Other than to make sure it was not hitting the fittings I didn't bother disassembling it. I ran it for about a week and then replaced it with a DDC in frustration.

I would consider that 3 failures out of 3 for the CSP-750 MKII. At least that's my sampling. I have not returned any of these pumps as I'm not interested in constantly replacing failing pumps and I'm fairly certain a cash refund will not be forthcoming.
ferdb is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-21-2005, 09:31 PM   #38
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotseat
Too the best of my knowledge, C-Systems still has a very low return rate.
However I understand from Dave, there are a few people that can not make there 750 work at all, for more then a few weeks.

I believe they maybe using a very restrictive system, or thermol overloading somehow.

I also believe given the low percentage of returns (around 1%) that this can be explained by simple assembly issues. They have also found that the pumps can be damaged in transit, having seem several that where hit so hard, as too have the screws holding the motor on stripped out, one even had the magnetic cap bent (was not disassembled). They have since changed packaging, with additional protection.

The only issue I see, is long term use under very restrictive use or in series, in which case I would suggest a MAG model or another pump designed for high back pressures. This is why AVT is sponsering a low cost upgrade program with C-Systems. We have to do this with C-Systems as our insurance carrier will not let us do so directly. In a free flowing systems, the 750 runs for years, and AVT still produces them for our applications and OEM orders.

C-Systems only produces the MAG model, and the company was purchased just to secure a supply of these units for there own internal use.
. . . . .
I dunno ?
it seemed like everything was explained away in this post,
guess I missed something

one of the luxuries of NOT being a pump mfgr is that I do not have to make excuses about pumps, I replace them and send them back to the mfgr
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2005, 09:53 AM   #39
bobkoure
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA - Boston area
Posts: 798
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotseat
^ No, I have had this same arguement 1000 times in my career. Un-spring mass effect refers to the "un dampened" mass...
We're not at odds here, just pointing out that most geometry changes don't change unsprung weight (and, yes, even "bike guys" realize that this is a misnomer and we're really talking about "unsprung mass" and the issue is inertia). As far as this mass being damped, well, yes, it should be but it isn't always - unless you count the internal friction of the suspension material (spring, gas, rubber, whatever), so I'm not sure I'd want to call it "undamped mass".

Oh - a compressible fluid. Makes sense given what you're doing. You realize that I would regard this as a kind of spring?

Back to your regularly scheduled pump discussion....
bobkoure is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2005, 10:24 AM   #40
AngryAlpaca
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alberta
Posts: 631
Default

Now, this 1%, is that all your pumps total or just the PC cooling ones? ("In a free flowing systems, the 750 runs for years, and AVT still produces them for our applications and OEM orders." just made me wonder.)
AngryAlpaca is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2005, 10:51 AM   #41
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default

AA, skip it
he is talking about returns, not failures
think coupon redemption rate and the slight is apparent
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2005, 11:15 AM   #42
Marci
Cooling Savant
 
Marci's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 486
Default

Aye, it's not necessarily the case that the number of failures tally's to C-Systems' returns as not everyone will have returned their failed pump, then there's however many have been returned to resellers that are still awaiting return to C-Systems, and then there's the figure of how many have failed that just made their way straight to the local dustbin...

Can't tally a products failure rate by the number of returns you have on it... you can just get an idea of how likely they are to fail and why based on the returns received.
Marci is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2005, 11:59 AM   #43
Butcher
Thermophile
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,065
Default

Also if it's a cheaper pump than many people might see it as almost "disposable" and just bin it when it dies.
__________________
Once upon a time, in a land far far away...
Butcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2005, 09:49 PM   #44
divardio
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Christchurch NZ
Posts: 22
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotseat
This is why AVT is sponsering a low cost upgrade program with C-Systems.
What will this mean exactly for disgruntled Mk2 owners like myself? :shrug:
divardio is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2005, 11:15 PM   #45
maxSaleen
Cooling Savant
 
maxSaleen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 383
Default

So far I'm getting this impression from everyone: "Yeah C-Systems has a good idea but I doubtful about their ability to deliver." A small DC pump with a high head rating seems to be what the PC water cooling community needs. The DDC has performed thus far with aplomb... its just that $75 for a pump? That stings. Hell for $30 more I could have purchased a good Iwaki. I personally would like to see C-Systems produce a reliable pump that the community can except, while, hopefully, keeping their price point the same....
maxSaleen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2005, 11:49 PM   #46
divardio
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Christchurch NZ
Posts: 22
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxSaleen
I personally would like to see C-Systems produce a reliable pump that the community can except, while, hopefully, keeping their price point the same....
I think we all want that, but can we expect the price to remain the same?

For me a good 'Mag Drive' upgrade offer is going to be key.
divardio is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-23-2005, 01:01 AM   #47
DryFire
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 148
Default

perhaps more along the lines of <$50 seems like a good target.
DryFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-23-2005, 01:57 PM   #48
BillA
CoolingWorks Tech Guy
Formerly "Unregistered"
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106
Posts: 4,440
Default

re this thread's other topic
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/21/au...s/21CARS.html?
not electronic suspension, but moving along
BillA is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-23-2005, 03:22 PM   #49
Dave
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 260
Default

Hello all !
Sorry I do not have much time available to spend in here as I am working at C-Systems and AVT Canada these days.

Dan asked that I jump in an answer some of the questions he could not.

First a correction, the pump housing is not fully aluminum. We use the plastic pump volute insert from the OEM models. There is a small area in front of the impeller exposed and of course the ports as well.

We should have the new models up for sale next week and suggested retail is $49.99. Please do not send me nasty emails or make voodoo dolls of me if this doesn't happen till the week after next. We are very busy meeting other commitments.

To answer questions of performance, management has decided to release a mid range impeller, about 120-140 gph, max head of 3-4 psi at 6-8 watts. They will be offering different configurations in the future and I am busy matching cooling blocks.

The AVT sponsered upgrade program is also expected to start soon and will be under $20.

I will jump in again when I have more news and will update our WEB site when I can. I hope to have some new pictures of additional products posted soon.

Dave
C-Systems Support
Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-23-2005, 03:23 PM   #50
lolito_fr
Cooling Savant
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: France
Posts: 291
Default

Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/21/a...es/21CARS.html?
not electronic suspension, but moving along
nice find.
a college friend did a small research project on this stuff a few years back and concluded that real-time tuneable shocks would be a most promising app - why I mentioned it.
my remark was (half) made in jest though as I can't imagine what type of pump could handle iron filings...!?
lolito_fr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(C) 2005 ProCooling.com
If we in some way offend you, insult you or your people, screw your mom, beat up your dad, or poop on your porch... we're sorry... we were probably really drunk...
Oh and dont steal our content bitches! Don't give us a reason to pee in your open car window this summer...