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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 04-12-2005, 07:12 PM   #151
BillA
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I do not have any truck with God

C-Systems pumps are 12V, and the ONLY 12V ones I'm aware of with 'reportedly' high failure rates
- so if you are talking about 12V pumps with 'problems' you are talking about C-Systems
-> there is no other possible interpretation, do correct me if I am in error

my mistake, sorry
I thought you knew what you were discussing
(I note that you did not respond to questions about other 12V pumps)
as JoeK used to say, 'its all good' - buy the pump with the best color (blue of course)

lets try to be positive, the old C-Systems pumps are no more
the new pump is a different design, as I suspect will be its performance and longevity
time will tell more than our words
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Unread 04-12-2005, 07:40 PM   #152
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Hmmm... I'm pretty sure Iwaki uses a fluid bearing to keep the rotor from contacting the shaft (or at least their sales material seems to claim this). No idea how well it works.
I have had some contact with fluid (AKA "plain") bearings in the automotive world. The shop owner (back when I worked at a bike shop) had a film from ...Chevrolet? anyway it was a high speed film of the various things oil would do inside of an engine. They had a part transparent plain bearing and you could see the shock wave the outer portion of the bearing was riding on.
Of course, that was engines and oil and this is pumps and water, but I would guess that it would be possible to design a bearing that worked a lot the same way and had been assuming (silly me - and, yes, I do know what you can do with that word) that at least the high end pumps would have been designed with something similar.

So now this mention of sapphire bearings has me thinking that it isn't possible to make plain bearings "work" in centrifugal water pumps.
Anyone care to enlighten me as to what important point(s) I've missed?
Is it as simple as "automotive hours are nothing compared to 24x7 x a couple of years? Something else?
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Unread 04-12-2005, 08:24 PM   #153
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by "plain" you mean sleeve ?
they do work excellently,
HOW excellently depends on the materials, design, mfgn, etc.

the revised MCP600/ne 50Z have a large dia ceramic shaft with a grooved passageway down its length to promote fluid flow, but the impeller 'bearing' is the mere hole in the glass-filled acetal (Noryl ?)
- hardly the best bearing matl, but if the film is maintained then should last a long time
what is long ? who knows w/o testing

the sapphire on ceramic is interesting, know nothing about such
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Unread 04-12-2005, 08:48 PM   #154
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I think I may be suffering from automotive-speak, so, yeah, "sleeve" (although "sleeve" means to me something like a low-speed oilite-bronze bearing, but I'm a dinosaur and the automotive folks likely follow your terminology now and not mine. Come to think of it, there may not even be oilite bearings any more - gone the way of babbit and bearing shells.)
Just figured maybe I was missing some important point...
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Unread 04-12-2005, 08:54 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
by "plain" you mean sleeve ?
they do work excellently,
HOW excellently depends on the materials, design, mfgn, etc.

the revised MCP600/ne 50Z have a large dia ceramic shaft with a grooved passageway down its length to promote fluid flow, but the impeller 'bearing' is the mere hole in the glass-filled acetal (Noryl ?)
- hardly the best bearing matl, but if the film is maintained then should last a long time
what is long ? who knows w/o testing

the sapphire on ceramic is interesting, know nothing about such
I can see why sapphire is desirable as a bearing component, it is a form of the mineral corundrum, which also is what rubies are. The only difference is that the impurities present change the color of the resulting crystal. I believe the impurity that makes sapphire blue is boron (I believe it is chromium in ruby, I could be wrong). It is the second hardest material there is next to diamond (a distant second to be sure) and very tough. Good choice for a hard bearing. It can be produced synthetically with relative ease so long as the crystals are very small. Jewel grade ones are of course much harder to grow!
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Unread 04-12-2005, 09:04 PM   #156
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bk
I started by learning to pour babbit bearings, and those bronze bearings are still ubiquitous
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Unread 04-12-2005, 10:42 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
I note that you did not respond to questions about other 12V pumps
What questions?
MCP600/50Z has an old-fashioned design (similar to photochemical pumps), with many parts wasting good space. Seems to be a good but old project.
D4 gets many goals with its sealed motor, spherical rotor and changeable parts.
DDC sounds like an excelent unit, special notes for ceramic ball (bearing), circular stator and small size.

I must mention that these are my humble opinions and i do not have those pumps in my hands to make deep reviews.

I did understand your criticism with "buy the pump with the best color", but my intention is to get improvement on computer wc, so i can not to miss the opportunity to offer my opinion to c-system.
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Unread 04-13-2005, 05:09 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
aiiii
what a Prince
so what's a MCP655 worth ?
Unless this is a typo..... you're the worse tease I ever met, glad yer not a chik!
MCP655=?
MCP350 "silent update" ho! new PQ graph. Is it a barbed MCP350?
edit: If silent update is tach why new graph?
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Unread 04-13-2005, 09:42 AM   #159
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I'm hurt, almost offended even
here we have a 7 pg thread about an announced but not yet avaliable pump with no specs, and I am the tease ?
double standard being applied here for sure

off topic
not in this thread
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Unread 04-13-2005, 03:43 PM   #160
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Sapphire/ceramic might be interesting for end thrust bearings. Or is there no end thrust whatsoever...(?)
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Unread 04-13-2005, 03:51 PM   #161
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Excuse me for the OT.

What's the hold-up on the Mag release/reviews? just NDA? or is production still ramping up?


didn't think you were so thin skinned bill
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Unread 04-13-2005, 03:51 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
here we have a 7 pg thread about an announced but not yet available pump
There was a bunch of conversation about the DDC before it became available - but maybe it hadn't been announced at that point (?)
It's a common phenomenon in the software world - compare one vendor's currently available product to the specs of another not-yet-released competing product. Fairly frustrating if you work for a place that doesn't announce specs before availability.
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Unread 04-13-2005, 03:57 PM   #163
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ment good naturedly, different ways to launch - accepted
and Laing put up the pg which started the commentary on the DDC

it is the notion that there is no thrust that has caused much difficulty
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Unread 04-13-2005, 11:10 PM   #164
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R&D then, ceramic on ruby

I thot the MCP600/50Z rolled on 1or2 ballbearings? not a hole in acetal/noryl?
Alshiemers!
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Unread 04-14-2005, 09:47 AM   #165
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It's not running on a hole, it's running on a cushion of fluid. Done correctly, the inner and outer "hard" pieces should not touch except when stopped (or stopping/starting).
Most automotive engines use this for crankshaft bearings. Two stroke engines (the ones using the crankcase as a "pump") cannot do this and have to make do with ball or roller bearings, which have a lower lifespan than the "hole" ones. Fluid bearings are good.
If you have something, like a rotor or a crankshaft, spinning on a fluid bearing, you then have to deal with the fact that it will not want to stay "centered" on that bearing but will push to one side or the other. With a centrifugal pump rotor, this push (side load) should be fairly small (there will be thrust (pull) from the water coming in the center inlet, but you should be able to counteract at least a good portion of that by angling the rotors and maybe the output chute. I would guess however that the balance won't be perfect because of variables you can't control for - so you need something to keep the rotor from walking off-center. IMHO, that's where sapphire/ceramic gets interesting.
Of course, I'm no pump engineer - and my automotive know-how is laughably out of date.
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Unread 04-14-2005, 10:08 AM   #166
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the MCP600/50Z has ball bearings supporting the motor and drive magnet,
the impeller is a sleeve plus locked ceramic/Noryl flat thrust bearing
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Unread 04-14-2005, 02:38 PM   #167
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Bill,
You mean it isn't you on this paper?

Nanocrystalline Diamond as Wear Resistant and Protective Coating for Mechanical Seal Applications
A.V. Sumant, A. R. Krauss, D. M. Gruen, O. Auciello, A. Erdemir, M. Williams, A. Artiles and W. Adams
Tribology Transactions, in press.

I figured the nextgen pump would all have diamond coated bearings.
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Unread 04-14-2005, 02:44 PM   #168
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no, but I'll add it to my CV
lol
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Unread 04-15-2005, 03:33 AM   #169
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what a card.
Thanks Bill, I knew there were BB's somewhere.

bobkoure: Thanks for the read, yeh like the pneumatic lifters in F1 motors to reach... what 19000RPM? for 2 whole races now! crazy!!

Last edited by Wang; 04-15-2005 at 03:38 AM.
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Unread 04-15-2005, 11:17 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wang
...yeh like the pneumatic lifters in F1 motors to reach... what 19000RPM?
The amazing (to me) thing is that they are still using tulip valves for this. You'd think that there's be a non-reciprocating solution. Tulip valves became "standard usage" in 1905 or so (first as inlet valves pulled open by suction, shortly later as the tops of pushrods in side valve engines). They may have started out as steam-engine technology (amazing what's either come out of that period - like shock absorbing bolt heads or been recently re-invented - like asymmerical fastener thread profiles, now NASA ultra-high-tech).

Anyway, the interesting part (to me) about the pneumatic lifters is that, like electroinic ignition or injection, you can adjust valve timings to suit the situation. Any kind of cam is a compromise (and if you look at high speed film you can see that the valve train is essentially doing a resonant thing and the cam is just "pushing the swing" - and the interplay varies with speed).
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Unread 04-15-2005, 09:22 PM   #171
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Dang nab it, Bill, every time you give me something for free, I have to work! I'd be way ahead if you'd just let me buy the Swiftech hardware like everyone else.

So I've got the first cut on the vi for pH, but I need to check into the temp coefficent of the resistors I'm using for I to V and verify things with a constant current source. I also want to document the terminal connections.

Coming back to the thread though, has anyone actually tested the new CSP pump? I've got a dead CSP-750 that at this point I'll give someone who can disect it and say why it died. Anyone interested?
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Last edited by talcum; 04-16-2005 at 07:09 AM. Reason: Lack of content
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Unread 04-15-2005, 10:31 PM   #172
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http://www.dtekcustoms.com/index.as...PROD&ProdID=148

Derlin housing. Really low wattage which means low heat dump. Good performance specs. Cool.
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Unread 04-15-2005, 10:48 PM   #173
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You're missing the most important thing, EnJoY. Reliability was the bone we had to pick last time. Is this reliable? The 50,000 hour rating says yes, but the history says no... I honestly don't know.
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Unread 04-15-2005, 11:23 PM   #174
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The two biggest reasons they were deemed unreliable before if I'm not mistaken were due to leaks from the seals and corrosion. In this pump there are no longer seals and the housing is made of derlin, which will not corrode. From what I gather the there are very few aluminum parts in this new pump and the ones that exist are subject to a new process stronger than anodizing. So we'll see what happens, I'm not trying to defend them really, just gets the facts straight.
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Unread 04-15-2005, 11:34 PM   #175
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Well, those are the things that DID go wrong and those have been corrected, but those early failures precluded late failures from happening.
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