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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 04-16-2005, 10:12 AM   #176
Dave
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I see Bill just can't help himself

The only thing he is right about the spec's, we don't annouce them, as we ask reviewers to do this for us.

In the past, many companies inflate there spec's, so I suggest you read a review test before designing around a spec sheet.

Bill, I understand as you have said yourself, you have never designed or engineered a pump, is this not correct ?

For those who are truely interested, the MAG has a curved impeller, and alot of pump theory that is being quoted here applies to much higher fluid velocities then most small pumps develop.

I was subject to alot of pump theory in school, and I had to re-learn much of what I "knew" when it comes to micro pumps.

I see D-Tek has posted there spec's, the only addition I can make is RPM.
The retail version operates at lower rpm then the 750, about 2400-3300 with norm at 2650.

Also please understand, D-Tek specs may not be "everyones", there are many different versions of these pumps.

There are OEM units out there, that you guys will likely find someday, and you need to understand they may have more performance, but this does not mean you can just install them in any system and expect good long term results.

The OEM units are design to fix specific needs that can not change.
C-Systems, unlike other companies, will NOT sell OEM style units too the public, so please do not email me

I finally posted the Delrin case pics on another thread, sorry I was out last weekend with spring flue.
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Unread 04-16-2005, 10:47 AM   #177
Arivaldo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
... the MAG has a curved impeller, and alot of pump theory that is being quoted here applies to much higher fluid velocities then most small pumps develop.
What about closed impeller? Could you think about it?
My ordered MAG was shipped last week. I will make some test ASAP and i will post here.
It could takes 2 weeks or more to get here...
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Unread 04-16-2005, 11:19 AM   #178
bobkoure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnJoY
From what I gather the there are very few aluminum parts in this new pump and the ones that exist are subject to a new process stronger than anodizing.
Any idea what that process might be? Just curious - probably doesn't matter at all if the aluminum isn't in contact with coolant...
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Unread 04-16-2005, 12:10 PM   #179
Dave
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Closed impellers are used to generate higher pressures by limiting flow, and are only effective at higher velocites. They can be noisy and need to be designed carefully. They are also very expensive to mold and fluid sensitve.

We use a close impeller on one of our OEM units, more do to the higher viscosity of the fluid this pump runs then for pressure.

Pressure equals rpm x diameter, and curved impellers REDUCE max possible pressure. You curve impellers to help match motor load / flow numbers.
It is a waste to pump fluid once you hit your flow requirement, so you angle blades to reduce motor load.

I have been doing impeller / load matching for about 6 months now, so I have some idea how it works

I think the senior engineers have me do it because they do not want to do all that math.

The process is Anolok, and there is no exposed surfaces now, except the one bearing chamber which needs the strengh of AL

Dave

Last edited by Dave; 04-16-2005 at 02:12 PM.
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Unread 04-16-2005, 04:37 PM   #180
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Default What about the upgrade program, Dave?

Hey Dave what about the upgrade program for the 750's? Any info on how to get one since it started on April 1?
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Unread 04-16-2005, 04:48 PM   #181
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Two words....no stock
C-Systems has stopped excepting additional OEM clients until we meet our retail demands.

This comes right from the top, not from me.

In addition AVT is handling some of C-Systems OEM production to give them room to start the upgrade program. AVT (aka Dan Neault) is the sponser of this upgrade program.
They need to do this through C-Systems for insurance reasons.

I hope it will start soon.
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Unread 04-16-2005, 04:54 PM   #182
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Oh - OK so is is anodizing - or at least AFAIK both Anolok and Anolok II are electrolytic dye processes (which lay-people like me call anodizing). Again, not an issue - just was curious...

Quote:
Pressure equals rpm x diameter, and curved impellers REDUCE max possible pressure.
Interesting. I wonder how length of rotor vane plays into this...(?) Is it rpm x outer diameter? rpm x average diameter? Just more being curious - if you don't know off hand, maybe you can point me at the appropriate text? Not that I'll necessarily understand it - but I'll leave you in peace while I try to.
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Unread 04-16-2005, 05:54 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
I wonder how length of rotor vane plays into this...(?) Is it rpm x outer diameter? rpm x average diameter? Just more being curious - if you don't know off hand, maybe you can point me at the appropriate text? Not that I'll necessarily understand it - but I'll leave you in peace while I try to.
I think there is another important parameter/data: blade height. Fast and big impeller will not generate any flow/pressure while it is plain. By this way, closed impeller could generates good flow as big as distance between its plates. That is how tall are blades will act on pressure/flow ratio. Similarly, fans with same speed (rpm) and diameter can generate different air flow by increasing blade tichness (25mm x 38mm fans).
I wish i had made this clear. And i am just curious too.
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Unread 04-16-2005, 06:07 PM   #184
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^ you are very clear and 100% correct.
You can not state one type of blade is better then another without considering velocities.

I remember about a year ago, when I designed a real nice impeller based on what I knew from pump theory in school. Dan made a straight 6 bladed piece about as simple as you can get, and it out performed my design by 20% (flow and pressure)

Bob search the net, you will find all the pump theory you need. Just remember 99% of it apply's to larger pumps, and most of it is based on proven designs.

What I am saying is someone designed a good pump, then they based the theory on it, not the reverse as some people think.

Your best beat these days, if you do not have experience, is CFD software, for which AVT has had some success with.

The equation that describes the pressure is U^2/g and U=(N2pi/60)(D/2)
Where D is diameter and N is rpm. This is then reduced by the final angle of the blade tip below 90 deg. D is the final diameter.

In the real world of large pumps, you can not use 90 deg and most pumps max out at 75 deg. But this is not the case with small pumps, which react more to the total volume of fluid and rpm then anything else.

Closed impellers control total fluid and can therefore if well designed increase velocity, which in turn increases pressure, with the cost being flow.

It's all a balancing act between flow, pressure and more important motor load, which is why people should not mess around with factory pump chambers.
Almost any DC pump can produce more flow or pressure, but at the cost of overloading the motor or bearings and reducing long term life.

This is the issue we had with the retail MAG, which we needed to design so that people trying to change chamber will have very limited success. This was quite the challange, and I will not discuss how we manage this.

The only issue with the MAG like any other small pump is fluid. You can not pump oil with a MAG and expect it to last. We have other impellers for higher fluids if needed.

Last edited by Dave; 04-16-2005 at 06:38 PM.
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Unread 04-25-2005, 02:13 AM   #185
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A few questions about the CSP750 upgrade program :
- Any idea if there is a time limitation?
- Is it valid for pumps that have been "modded"?
- My pumps come from a group order done by C-systems, can I participate in the upgrade program?

Some comments:
It would be a nice idea to have both side and top inlet on the CSP Mag pumps, as some users may prefer to sacrifice some space to gain some performance or the opposite (though I know that the top inlet is not as restrictive as a 90-degree elbow).
Very restrictive systems are used in Europe. Most of the time, you get between 25-40 gph. For this kind of watercooling circuits, a pump optimize to produce the most possible pressure at let's say 80 gph would be ideal!
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Unread 04-25-2005, 11:14 AM   #186
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We have top and rear inlet options, for side just turn housing 90 deg
Return any 750 in any condition as long as they don't have Innovatek logo.

Haven't flow tested these vary restrictive blocks yet, get between 5.6 and 6.4 l/m with DD TDX, D-Tek white water,and Swiftech 6000.

Higher for older maze type blocks.
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Unread 04-25-2005, 12:17 PM   #187
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Thanks Dave. I actually meant 2 inlets ports (top and rear) and 1 outlet on each pump , so that the user can choose what he prefers. Also, the advantage is that C-systems would not have to manufacture 2 different versions of the same pump.
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Unread 04-26-2005, 03:10 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floflooo
Thanks Dave. I actually meant 2 inlets ports (top and rear) and 1 outlet on each pump , so that the user can choose what he prefers. Also, the advantage is that C-systems would not have to manufacture 2 different versions of the same pump.
....and a Tapped blanking plug for the other. Much as was done with the watercool.de polytop for the DDC.
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Unread 04-26-2005, 08:14 AM   #189
Dave
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^ Can not get plug to fit in rear port without restricting top port inlet.
We use the pre-chamber area for both ports, so if a plug is in there, it causes restriction.

Looking for a short plug now.
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Unread 06-20-2005, 11:15 AM   #190
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Eventually a review
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Unread 06-20-2005, 11:48 AM   #191
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I was hopeing they would test dual and inline configs like they did with the CSP 750s, but its still got some pretty good info on these little babies. I think Cathar should do that part

Last edited by Breach; 06-20-2005 at 11:54 AM.
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Unread 06-21-2005, 12:08 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
^ Can not get plug to fit in rear port without restricting top port inlet.
We use the pre-chamber area for both ports, so if a plug is in there, it causes restriction.

Looking for a short plug now.
What do you think about a overlay plug with o-ring.
I think that just a 4mm thread depth will not obstruct top inlet.
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Unread 06-30-2005, 12:59 PM   #193
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