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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 05-12-2004, 08:22 AM   #151
jlrii
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You must be somewhat anxious.....I know I am. Like a kid a christmas exept your not sure if Santa's really gonna show up. If things work out for you within the next 3 or 4 months partialy because the timing would work out perfectly for me . WCing is ripped out of my current rig right now whilst I upgrade.I have all in hand exceptin a block- new rack mount case, 2xD4s...brass ones even, dual Thermochill 120.1s, I have a 5/8 od mandrel bender in hand and I'm going to do much of the main tubing in 1/2 id Cu (except where i can't squeese it or it needs to move) The "P2" would complete it nicely, as I was having no luck at all scanning forums and eBay for a used Cascade and wouldn't touch an RBX or similar if it were free. The whine of my 60mm 6k rpm SK700 air cooler is a constant reminder to get to work on it. Nevermind that I had to derate my oc to run it on air. So wishing you the best here...albiet somewhat selfishly. And also looking forward to how some of the manufactures look in the aftermath of the "storm".

Last edited by jlrii; 05-12-2004 at 08:49 AM.
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Unread 05-12-2004, 09:50 AM   #152
AngryAlpaca
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Why doesn't anyone ever try overvolting the MCP 600? jlrii: The approximate difference between the WW and the Cascade is 1C... Why not just grab the WW? Is that 1C really important enough to make you keep that whiny (and much warmer) HSF?
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Unread 05-12-2004, 12:18 PM   #153
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Cathar, I am seriuosy glad you figured it out finally!
Benefits are quite phenomenal there. Massive increase in coolants velocity with increased pressure combined with substantially higher water to copper surface area. There's one more problem here. It's 3D design of a block using pressure force and velocity increase effects. All I can say is that there's a compromise to be struck here between an amount of coolan't molecules being in contact with copper in any given time, restrictiveness and spot cooling technology. I got inspired by foamed graphite cooling tech Keep digging m8! You are so close (or maybe you are there already???)
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Unread 05-12-2004, 02:20 PM   #154
jlrii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca
Why doesn't anyone ever try overvolting the MCP 600? jlrii: The approximate difference between the WW and the Cascade is 1C... Why not just grab the WW? Is that 1C really important enough to make you keep that whiny (and much warmer) HSF?
Hmm.....Ummm...yup ...was time for a rebuild, was running a reeal old block, an Innovatek R3, worked well but there's a lot more mhz in this 2500+. I want to do it up right so I can be happy with it for quite some time and have the option to move on as possibly to a 64 platfom at some time. Just using the ex-wc rig for gaming right now, so i found an acoustic solution. Sound is an Audigy ZS Platinum through an old Sound Craftman preamp and PM1600 amp pushing about 600 wrms into a pair of Polk SDA SRS 2 Speakers. I just crank it up about 1/2 way while playing UT and the fan noise seems to go away. NG for listening to music at low volumes as it sits now tho'... drives me nuts. The WW blocks were supposed to be back in stock the end of this month and I had considered getting one but I will hold off till I see what happens with the P2. Once the new box is done I can use the old block in the interim and will pick up a WW if it doesn't work out. I just missed out on the Cascade, I'll be damned if I miss out on this one.
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Unread 05-12-2004, 03:46 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca
Why doesn't anyone ever try overvolting the MCP 600?
it doesn't offer as tempting results as the D4... see cathar's test
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...5&pagenumber=3
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Unread 05-12-2004, 08:07 PM   #156
AngryAlpaca
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Yeah, 60% more flow in an actual system isn't that great. How much improvement does the D4 allow?
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Unread 05-12-2004, 09:34 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca
Yeah, 60% more flow in an actual system isn't that great. How much improvement does the D4 allow?
err no - at 16V its 60% more than 10V.....
mcp600
12.0v 0.98A 11.8W 5.8LPM
16.0v 1.41A 22.6W 8.0LPM
which is a 38% improvement....

the D4 gave:
12V approx 19W 7.5LPM
16V approx 24W 10.5LPM
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...5&pagenumber=7

why would you go to the effort of overvolting an mcp600 (seperate psu, separate control circuit, plus an unknown effect on the life etc...)
when a stock D4 delievers virtually the same performance without the hassle. the attraction of overvolting the D4 is iwaki performance cheaper and more compact.....
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Unread 05-12-2004, 10:05 PM   #158
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An MCP600 oc'ed to 15-16V gives US-spec Iwaki MD15-R sort of performance. A 15VDC power-pack is a pretty cheap thing, and the MCP600 + 15VDC powerpack would be considerably less than the Iwaki MD15-R.

Not that overclocking of DC pumps is a terribly good idea if you care about warranty or pump life-span (I don't and I don't try to RMA a product that I broke - I accept the consequences of my actions), I still wouldn't recommend running the MCP600 at more than 15V as it may not reliably start up above that voltage.

I use 2 x D4's in series for my testing, attached to a lab bench PSU where I can run the voltage from 5V (Eheim 1046 sort of performance) right up to 16V (US-Spec Iwaki MD-40RZ sort of performance).

I tell ya, the 2 x D4's in series at 16V provide plenty of push, hitting around 19PSI or so if you want to try to stop them from flowing. Excellent cheap pumping power.

Last edited by Cathar; 05-12-2004 at 10:50 PM.
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Unread 05-12-2004, 10:46 PM   #159
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Oh oops.
Quote:
MCP600 + 15VDC powerpack would be considerably less than the MCP600.
?!?!? 19PSI? I find that hard to believe, well, a little...
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Unread 05-12-2004, 10:55 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca
Oh oops. ?!?!? 19PSI? I find that hard to believe, well, a little...
Fixed the "Oops".


A Laing D4 at 16V dead-heads at around 6.8mH2O.

2 in series = 13.6mH2O

13.6 x 1.42 ~= 19.3PSI

Here's my plots of my measurement for the Laing D4's PQ curve at 12v and 16v: here.
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Unread 05-12-2004, 11:31 PM   #161
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Damn the whiny noise! The teal would be approximately representative of the Mag 3, correct? Oh well. Are the results of those experiments (the ones with the higher flow along with the higher temperature offering a higher overclock) applicable to the WW as well, or is it simply a Cascade thing?
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Unread 05-13-2004, 12:02 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca
Damn the whiny noise! The teal would be approximately representative of the Mag 3, correct?
Maybe this will clarify?

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Unread 05-23-2004, 12:51 PM   #163
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I live in the us, and I am considering buying an Iwaki md20-30rz pump. Since you have had experience with the new danger den pumps, would you reccomend them over the iwaki pumps?
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Unread 05-23-2004, 01:46 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
I live in the us, and I am considering buying an Iwaki md20-30rz pump. Since you have had experience with the new danger den pumps, would you reccomend them over the iwaki pumps?
Iwaki is much better. If you gotthe bucks thats the one to go for.
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Unread 05-23-2004, 08:15 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
I live in the us, and I am considering buying an Iwaki md20-30rz pump. Since you have had experience with the new danger den pumps, would you reccomend them over the iwaki pumps?
Hmmm, tough call. Iwaki are better quality - no two ways about it. The D4's when over-volted catch up to even the really powerful Iwaki's though, and put less heat into the water when doing so. Life-span is something to consider though when over-volting and right now that's an unknown. Have been running my D4's at 16v fairly often (weeks at a time non-stop on occasion) with no apparant ill-effects yet.
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Unread 05-23-2004, 08:26 PM   #166
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Well I should be picking up the Storm/G4 later today. Been testing the Storm/G3 against the Cascade SS, establishing a base-line and verifying results. On further testing the G3 has retained its ~1C lead over the SS, using a Barton AthlonXP 2800+ @ 2500MHz/1.95v running BurnK7, and these results apply to both the on-die diode, and external monitoring. Performance vs pumping pressure tests show that at lower pumping pressures (~Eheim 1048) that the G3 still holds a slim lead over the SS, which slowly grows as the pumping pressure is increased.

With the G4 I don't anticipate any major gains - slightly more than a 0.5C improvement at the standard testing conditions if reality matches theory. It may work out a little better than that as the G3's implementation did have a flaw that I tried to work around, but am uncertain as to how successful I was in doing so.
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Unread 05-23-2004, 08:54 PM   #167
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Does the heat that the Lian D4 puts into the water justify its noise, and lifespan over the iwaki? Also, which Iwaki model would you reccomend?
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Unread 05-23-2004, 08:54 PM   #168
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At approx. what gpm & head rates do you see the 1C improvement over the Cascade SS?
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Unread 05-23-2004, 09:08 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
Does the heat that the Lian D4 puts into the water justify its noise, and lifespan over the iwaki? Also, which Iwaki model would you reccomend?
Noise is a subjective thing. I can't factually state what is annoying to me will be annoying to someone else. A moderate assessment of the D4's noise based on more experiences than just my own is that it whines, the pitch of the whine is annoying, but the volume is not so loud that it cannot be managed, or that if there are sufficient sources of other types of noise in the case that its noise will just become lost in the cacophany. People who are noise sensitive will hate it. People who accept high-speed fans as part of everyday life will hardly notice it. For myself it's a case of the noise always being noticable without specifically having to listen for it, but due to sticking the pumps in a 1/2" thick MDF box, the volume is tolerable. I can't be any more specific than that - noise is a subjective perception.

Which Iwaki model? If you live in a 50Hz power country, the MD20-RZ seems the best fit. If you live in a 60Hz power country, then the MD15-R for a moderate one-size-fits-all type of pump, or the MD20-R for low-moderate restriction setups, or the MD20-RZ for moderate-high restriction setups.
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Unread 05-23-2004, 09:16 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
At approx. what gpm & head rates do you see the 1C improvement over the Cascade SS?
I want to wait until I test the G4. Basically ranges from ~0.4C better at Eheim 1048 sorts of pumping pressures, to 1.0C better at a 50Hz Iwaki MD30-RZ sort of pumping pressure, with a fairly linear slope of increases between those two points. I'm extremely hesitant to put a lot of faith behind those sorts of resolutions as it's basically pushing the limits of what I can reliably detect and not mistake it as just "testing noise". Theory says that the G4 should be better by enough that I can start to put some more faith in the scale of the results. My goal here is to develop the G4 as well as I can, and ask nicely for Phaestus to independently verify my findings.
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Unread 05-23-2004, 11:21 PM   #171
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I'd have to agree about the whining noise. Just post the sound file... It speaks for itself.
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Unread 05-27-2004, 12:54 AM   #172
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Well here's a piccy of a somewhat dirty prototype G4. Sides don't quite align properly, but since people always ask for pictures....



Sorry, no "internal" shots...
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Unread 05-27-2004, 01:46 AM   #173
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needs more "i will kick your ass" stickers across the individual platess to seal it up (think Danger Den meets Schwartzenneggar)
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Unread 05-27-2004, 01:48 AM   #174
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Looks sexy nuff for me. What made you choose aluminum? (or is that some kind of plastic, delrin perhaps?)
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Unread 05-27-2004, 04:33 AM   #175
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delrin, totaly block weight is ~300g according to the source. including barbs.
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