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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 07-02-2004, 12:46 AM   #226
nigelyuen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexwai
I am expecting to see the performance on both blocks on different flow rate scenarios so that we may have a full picture (C/W VS flow rate curve from 0.25 gpm to 2gpm).
not all the block you can pump 2gpm
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Unread 07-02-2004, 12:51 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelyuen
not all the block you can pump 2gpm
It is ok if not all blocks can be pumped with 2gpm. Just want to see how they can gain on different flow rate.

Last edited by alexwai; 07-02-2004 at 01:00 AM.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 01:09 AM   #228
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And here I was thinking we were talking about off the shelf manufacturer designed systems, not hand picked setups... :shrug:

It would have been nice, though I guess Swiftech probably would have won.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 02:07 AM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firtol88
And here I was thinking we were talking about off the shelf manufacturer designed systems, not hand picked setups... :shrug:

It would have been nice, though I guess Swiftech probably would have won.
swiftech can never win with their radiator
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Unread 07-02-2004, 02:10 AM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
When over-volted as planned, it'd be more powerful than a Danner Mag 3, or a Laing D4.
That's not what I get from Alphacool's site. The pump is specced at 3m of head at 24v, unless I'm reading it wrong.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 02:17 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerSandwich
That's not what I get from Alphacool's site. The pump is specced at 3m of head at 24v, unless I'm reading it wrong.
Would that be the pumps on this page that all say that they're 12v pumps for the AP700, AP900 and AP1500?

For the AP1500 12v pump, at 1500lph peak flow and with a peak 3m pressure head makes for a pump that's slightly more powerful than a Danner Mag 3. Over-volt by even a small amount, and it'll leave a 12v Laing D4 far behind.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 02:18 AM   #232
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Does that make my current PC the entry as an Australian system? D4, large single pass core, and Cascade?
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Unread 07-02-2004, 03:20 AM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Does that make my current PC the entry as an Australian system? D4, large single pass core, and Cascade?
Hmmm, from an admittedly somewhat ego-centric point-of-view, I guess a somewhat typical "Aussie" enthusiast setup would be:

Cascade waterblock
'87-'94 Toyota Camry heater-core, being the original "Big Arse" radiator, sold as a product here (not by me) as the JARON IceCool
1/2" ID tubing
Swiftech MCP600 or Laing D4, or to be truly Australian the Davies-Craig EBP 12v pump
2 x Panaflo H1A's on the radiator, typically at 7V

A fair number of people over at OCAU have followed that sort of configuration.

Last edited by Cathar; 07-02-2004 at 03:41 AM.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 04:29 AM   #234
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From the time I started reading this thread this is what I got the feeling of what was coming in as the average german type system.

And what I would of liked to of seen used for the typical american high flo system would of been an all dangergen setup including

1. TDX/RBX block 1/2
2. DD D4 12v pump
3. DD double heatercore with shroud and 2 papst fans
4. Tygon 1/2" id tubing
5. dbl 3 1/2" or 5 1/4" res
6. Zerex supercoolant
7. Misc clamps and hardware.

It would come in under $300 and would be quite comparable to most of the enthusiasts setups.

I know that on this site there are a couple issuse with DD and this site and members but for a one stop shop from the same place I think it is a decent setup for a comp such as this.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 08:58 AM   #235
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Cathar - Do you have anything positive to add to this thread instead of your misinformed whinge/rant?

You are wrong on so many counts, it might be funny if you weren't so serious about it.

I'll leave the majority of the egg on your face for now and just let you read back through the whole thread to realise some of your mistakes but I will pull you up on a couple of points.

The challenge itself -
I was fed up of going around minding my own business (literally), trying to help people make an educated and informed choice with their watercooling setup, only to be trashed by words like "don't buy that German stuff, it's crap".
^^^ Now that was an actual quote from a ProForum member on another forum, in the actual thread that prompted nightic to compose this thread in the first place (before he emailed me to inform me that he'd asked for you guys' opinion too.)
I come into the thread to find you and BillA warbling on about how US systems are performance-oriented and all German systems merely adequate.
Well, helllloooo? Welcome to 2004... lift the veil of ignorance and come on in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
The Black Ice Xtreme II radiators that Pug included were made primarily for the US high-flow style market.
In case you weren't aware, the rad in the kit was commissioned by a German firm who recognised that barbs as used by the majority of the US systems I've seen (and permanently attached to the US version of this rad) are both inefficient and dated by way of a PC watercooling standpoint. Rather than using a proprietary system, as others have done, they chose to have it threaded for interchangeable fittings to increase compatibility for those who wish to mix & match or even upgrade their system partially if they can't afford to do it all at once - an approach I personally have a lot more respect for (as an end user and mentor to others) than the alternatives.

I'll agree that most well known German systems have, until recently been based around a continuous tube radiator - but it's usually a 240 or 360 with the smaller pump, while US systems usually tend to comprise of a single 120mm fan rad & shroud with a hefty pump {as with the Danger Den system proposed by Paul (Coolmiester) and BillA's Swiftech offering}.
There's not a lot in it at normal every day real-world use, in fact, the APE 360 in my own ClearPC in conjunction with the 12V AP900 and "typically restrictive reservoir" probably outperforms the BIXII and AP1500 anyway - as would the HTF triple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Crap, I'd use that pump if I could. I think many US people would be more than happy to use that pump. When over-volted as planned, it'd be more powerful than a Danner Mag 3, or a Laing D4.
I'm glad you like the AP1500 but you don't seem to realise quite what it is when you speak of overvolting it further. The info is around (even in this very thread) if you care to read for it properly.
This kit was aimed to offer the best cross-section of performance & silence in one package - it's adjustable to boot so if, like me, you want to be able to use your overclocked computer in silence six days a week and be able to cope with any fluctuations the weather might throw at you or run a mad overclock for a LAN party - you have it.
I personally run the AP900 (which is the exact equivalent of running the AP1500 at its base 12V setting) and would never advocate people running at 24V unless they have a particularly well soundproofed case and/or don't mind the noise produced. There really isn't a lot in it - you'd be better off tweaking it to a satisfactory noise level (at whatever voltage that is) and then selecting fans to match that acceptable noise threshold.
The pump in its un-overvolted state is very similar in its flow characteristics to the 1048 we all know & love... it's just that with the step up transformer we also give you the wherewithal to "overclock" it out of the box, as you see fit to suit your needs & system requirements.
It's futureproof in this way and fun to mess about with too, I don't understand your problem with that.


All the parts in the kit are as German in origin as Swiftech & Danger Den's offerings are American - it's the German version of the BIX, in contrast to the Swiftech & Danger Den versions. The German blocks are there too, with their small ID fittings... If it would make you happier, I can supply the 7mm ID hose that I personally use instead of my "high-flow" 8mm ID.
The minimum ID of the fittings is 7mm anyway - If I put these on your block for a comparitive test, you'd moan like f$ck that we were hamstringing it!!

It seems to me that you yourself must have some ulterior motives behind your posts - I don't have time to dignify them with much of a response other than what I've already said and I haven't changed my tune since I came into this thread - read my posts and see (and thanks Chew Toy, I can see that you have done so ).

I could just send a block... but what's that going to show if people can't see that it's the parts that make a whole.
With this kit, I can show you a balanced system that would outperform a badly designed Cascade XXX rig any day of the week, no matter what either block can do on its own under lab conditions.
Even if you can't open your own eyes to this, there's no need to hold your hands over everyone else's (in the interests of your own "admittedly somewhat ego-centric point-of-view").

Now if you'll excuse me, I have customers to support.
Please keep your points valid and research your arguments further to save wasting both my time & theirs.
Thanks in advance.

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Unread 07-02-2004, 09:45 AM   #236
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*clap* *clap*

Spoken with the spin of a true sales-person.

Very good. Enjoyed it immensely.

You explained some history, but it still doesn't change that the system that you outlined falls very strongly onto the side of "US"-style.

Spin it how you want. Explain it how you want. Apart from the tubing, it's a true "US"-style system.

I have no ulterior motive here except to point out that I see someone who is eager to sell his products, and is prepared to present a system in the best possible light, which can only be described as "US"-like, in order to achieve that goal.

I have no vested monetary interest in this. You do.

So who has the ulterior motive here, hiding under the umbrella of a "German vs US" bake-off? This is no longer a "German vs US" bake-off. This is a "near-US" vs "US" bake-off.

If German systems have really commonly evolved into the system that you're putting up for comparison, then all that's been done here is to dispel some myths that German systems now pretty much have fallen in line with the US way of doing things, and might I add, "Welcome - we've been waiting for you!"

*off to bed*
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Unread 07-02-2004, 10:50 AM   #237
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Well. If we were to keep you happy, all I'd need to do would be to keep the step up transformer out of it (sorry pHaestus - I think you'd have appreciated that too) and switch the rad for a multipass one. Oh and switch the tubing to 7mm ID too.
We'd probably lose what? About 2-4°C all told? Pfft. Up the fans on the rad back to the GMLs and we'd have that difference straight back.

What you propose won't be a commercial offering that was part of the criteria that I proposed initially as you conveniently seem to be forgetting that I was the one who issued the challenge in the first place!

You overestimate my vested interest in this. I'm just calling you out for your misinformation.
**** it - I'm not even US-based so I'm unlikely to be the one benefitting from this in any other way than as a moral victory over you for talking trash about products which you freely admit you have had no experience with (or did you conveniently miss this part of the first post -
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightic
I'd merely like to hear the thoughts and opinions of those who may have practical experience of both types of system.
)

So, seeing as you feel so qualified to post in this thread, would you care to share your experience of German-style setups? If you have none, would you like to foot the bill for sending the kit revised to your chosen criteria????


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
*off to bed*
^^^ At least that's a good reason to keep your eyes closed.
Sleep well.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 11:02 AM   #238
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Crap - I couldn't sleep. I was lying there thinking why does this irk me so much, and I figured it out.

This whole "German vs US" thing. The pro-German's point at WaterCoolPlanet as if to prove that somehow the "US style" blocks are all under-performing in comparison. Every "US-style" block that's there is a fair way behind the leading German blocks.

The US-style proponents point out that due to the WCP testbed's use of the very weak Eheim 1046, the small-ID tubing, and a very restrictive coiled-tubing radiator, that the flow rates are so low as to be totally out of spec with the intent of the design of the "US-style" blocks.

Now along comes a proposed "German" vs "US" bakeoff. Problem is that now the rest of the "German" system (aside from the block) is something that would now be totally "within spec" for a US-style block, being most everything that a US-style system calls for - being a strong pump (roughly a Mag 3 equivalent) and a large unrestrictive heater-core style radiator.

So I wonder.

Why is it that US-style blocks get tested (and bested) on a German testbed that apparantly epitomises everything that we are always being told is "German" when it comes to a water-cooling testbed, yet when it comes to a square off for the apparantly dichotic philosophies, that the "German" system that gets proposed is one that the US blocks would be quite happy to be run with, and certainly one that would show most of the US blocks in a far better light if it formed the basis of the WCP testbed?

i.e. it's the anomalies between what gets presented as a "German" system when it comes to ranking waterblocks that everyone points at vs what is being sent that is nothing like what gets used to rank waterblocks in Germany.

So which is it? What is a German setup? It certainly does not appear to be anything like what was explained in the opening thread, nor does it appear to be anything like what is upheld as the be-all/end-all of German waterblock test-beds.

There, I think that's what has been bugging me all day. Now maybe I'll get some sleep.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 11:10 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
If German systems have really commonly evolved into the system that you're putting up for comparison, then all that's been done here is to dispel some myths that German systems now pretty much have fallen in line with the US way of doing things, and might I add, "Welcome - we've been waiting for you!"
It seems this is what is happening.

Look at Innovatek's first X-flow kit:
http://www.viperlair.com/reviews/cas...vatek/p2.shtml

And now their XX kit:
http://www.bigbruin.com/html/innovatek-xxs.htm

Look at the radiator more spacifically. They still use a weak pump and 8mm ID tubing but one peice at a time is catching up to US system style specs.

I would rather see a complete German manufactured kit as opposed to one thrown together by a currently wannabe company and peices the parts together.

Last edited by jaydee116; 07-02-2004 at 11:16 AM.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 11:41 AM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelyuen
swiftech can never win with their radiator

I think you underestimate Swiftech's dual 120 rad, the 676 or whatever...


All said I thought we would see the Asetech kit, Alphacool basic kit, Innovateks kits, DD maze 4 kits, Swiftech's kits...

Kits put together and sold as a whole by manufacturers not pieced together mish mashes, Swiftech's 22600 series would likely trounce the others. I have no numbers to suport this but that is my gut feeling, considering ease of installation, performance and noise level.

Hell if I'm out in left field somone let me know.

These kits have a place, maybe not in my main box but maybe my wifes or kids... Hell I could use a bit of quiet speed for my system at my office. Kits designed to work as a unit have a better chance of increasing adoption which can only help all of us, I'd like to see where they stand.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 12:37 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firtol88
I think you underestimate Swiftech's dual 120 rad, the 676 or whatever...


All said I thought we would see the Asetech kit, Alphacool basic kit, Innovateks kits, DD maze 4 kits, Swiftech's kits...

Kits put together and sold as a whole by manufacturers not pieced together mish mashes, Swiftech's 22600 series would likely trounce the others. I have no numbers to suport this but that is my gut feeling, considering ease of installation, performance and noise level.

Hell if I'm out in left field somone let me know.

These kits have a place, maybe not in my main box but maybe my wifes or kids... Hell I could use a bit of quiet speed for my system at my office. Kits designed to work as a unit have a better chance of increasing adoption which can only help all of us, I'd like to see where they stand.
i dont think it will out perform this one
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Unread 07-02-2004, 12:46 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelyuen
i dont think it will out perform this one
LOL I wasn't refering to external kits or single unit packages... this has become pointless we may as well include phase change, pelts...

Oh well overall it was a nice idea.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 12:57 PM   #243
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i had a swiftech 8500pv kit
its rubbish, maybe its because its old
the base of the block is thick, the radiator is small(8cm), the pump is loud, and its dead after 3-4 months
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Unread 07-02-2004, 01:29 PM   #244
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Resuming, there are 3 systems:
- US systems;
- German systems;
- The new German systems (the one pug is sending);

What i want? the 3 of them tested.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 01:29 PM   #245
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We don't have any problems here with Dangerden; I talk to Dennis and Jeremy fairly regularly and have always said they make well-built and inexpensive products for the mainstream. I had some altercations with DangerDen FANBOYS on other forums but that's nothing new.

Nigel: If thick base blocks are rubbish then I guess there's no need to test german waterblocks at all?

Pug: It seems to me that all we are doing here is arguing the same debate that led me to testing waterblocks with a large pump and flow control instead of with a variety of pumps and radiators. And when I said I'd make a dual radiator system with loud fans to win a competition for the good ole US of A you thought that was pretty unfair. Now that's pretty much what you are doing: "I could use a radiator more typical of the German style but then I'd switch to loud fans". I thought the concept of quiet cooling was stressed in German systems?

How hard is it to choose a complete kit put together by a German mfgr? Or barring that just send a few waterblocks on loan for me to test?

Or (here's probably the best solution) why not send me a German kit as provided by a German mfgr and then send the parts YOU would use instead for your hybrid wizard designs kit? That way we all see the tradeoffs (if any) involved in the German style, the American style, and then how much is to be gained from mixing and matching?

I am fairly confident I could get the missing parts to build either a DTek or a DD kit as well.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 01:40 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelyuen
i had a swiftech 8500pv kit
its rubbish, maybe its because its old
the base of the block is thick, the radiator is small(8cm), the pump is loud, and its dead after 3-4 months
You bring up an interesting point, is there a warranty with the kit and how good is it.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 01:45 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firtol88
You bring up an interesting point, is there a warranty with the kit and how good is it.
i didnt bother if i could get a L20 for 15us
i replaced with l20 and its not as noisy

are we testing the german waterblock or german watercooling kit here?
shall we test the german vga block too?
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Unread 07-02-2004, 02:12 PM   #248
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nigelyuen...Please suppy link to the Wasserkuhlung. Now that says German!
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Unread 07-02-2004, 05:49 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Nigel: If thick base blocks are rubbish then I guess there's no need to test german waterblocks at all?
Or any number blocks at all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Pug: It seems to me that all we are doing here is arguing the same debate that led me to testing waterblocks with a large pump and flow control instead of with a variety of pumps and radiators. And when I said I'd make a dual radiator system with loud fans to win a competition for the good ole US of A you thought that was pretty unfair. Now that's pretty much what you are doing: "I could use a radiator more typical of the German style but then I'd switch to loud fans". I thought the concept of quiet cooling was stressed in German systems?

How hard is it to choose a complete kit put together by a German mfgr? Or barring that just send a few waterblocks on loan for me to test?
To a lesser degree that's perhaps my other gripe with all this. I was honestly interested in seeing just how a "traditional" German kit would've compared. I mean it gets thrown about often enough in US forums by German proponents that US kits suck, and that "small, quiet and elegant" is the "German way" and is every bit as good.

Instead what I see is what I would call a super-aggressive custom-assembled kit made from specially commissioned components offered by a reseller of various water cooling components.

If those are the rules of the game, then would it not be more appropriate for someone line Bruce from Cooltechnica to put together a "best of USA" kit, or perhaps a kit from a custom reseller like JPI?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Or (here's probably the best solution) why not send me a German kit as provided by a German mfgr and then send the parts YOU would use instead for your hybrid wizard designs kit? That way we all see the tradeoffs (if any) involved in the German style, the American style, and then how much is to be gained from mixing and matching?

I am fairly confident I could get the missing parts to build either a DTek or a DD kit as well.
Totally agreed.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 07:23 PM   #250
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Well, let's say we were to ask Bruce to selectively build the best U.S.A. watercooling system. One ongoing trend that I have seen between German and USA setups is that US setups involve much more "home" modification than German setups. We are satisfied with "strictly made for watercooling" pumps such as the MCP600 and the soon to be Dtek Csystem pumps but we always are anxious of how a non-made for watercooling pump such as an Iwaki, Blueline, or Gen-X pump would affect performance. Moreover, most WC enthusiasts would opt for a Fedco2-342 rather than a BIX or Thermochill.

That said, choosing items not made for watercooling would be an unfair comparison. I'd say an MCP600 and a Thermochill would suffice.

For the German side of things, I agree that using a BIX caters towards more of a U.S. specified system because of its similarities to a standard "from the car" radiator (even similar to the "Big Arse" style radiators of Australia). I suggest using an HTf2 radiator rather than an Airplex because it performs a lot better and I think utilizes the restrictive tubed style radiator that we have all been accustomed to seeing with a German system.

As for tubing, when I think American I automatically think 1/2." That is just me. The MCW6000 was a wonderful block, but many people waited for the 1/2" version because their systems were already 1/2" and they assumed "bigger is better." I do not know exactly if it performs better, but the assumption is already there: typical U.S. systems prefer 1/2" and nothing less. All the parts that PUG chose are catered towards 3/8" and utlize a quiet low flow pump like the AP. I honestly don't understand how it can even be considered American (that is, after Pug has decided to take out the transformer andexchange the BIX for an Airplex) because it has little to do with the "bigger is better" stereotype.
1. You have small tubing.
2. The pump is nowhere near the specs of a Mag 3 or MCP600 (again, this is
without the transformer)
3. The Coolplex reservoir follows the same restriction as a Tank-O-Matic (which
Americans have come to hate because of its restriction, although most
decide to modify it)
4. The restrictive radiator.

That said, I slightly modiied my setup, which can be seen here
http://www.insanetek.com/index.php?page=germanwb
with some German blocks. I used the same radiator and reservoir (both which can be considered American) but I switched to a 1048 and three German blocks as well as 3/8 inch tubing. Before this I had an MCP600 and a TDX and Fusion HL. The graphics card temps remained unchanged with the newer setup, but the CPU temps went up 2 degrees C on Load, but the change in noise was MUCH lower than before with the elimination of the MCP600.

I still have all my stuff, and I'm saving up for an HTF2 radiator and a Coolplex reservoir from http://snt-systems.com/catalog/index.php.

I hope to do a comparison between the 1/2 setup and the 3/8 setup, but I know that it won't be near as good as Phaestus's reviews.
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