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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 05-25-2004, 08:14 PM   #101
Meethoss
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Well it's German and supposedly pretty good, so I think that's a good choice.

I agree with the fact about the UK being more towards the US - most guys I've spoken to seem to want a good balance between silence and power.

P.S. Cathar, so are you shipping Cascades again? Which ones?
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Unread 05-25-2004, 08:26 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meethoss
P.S. Cathar, so are you shipping Cascades again? Which ones?
No. Am still prototyping the P2/Storm. Actually the machinists rang me not 5 minutes ago to tell me that they have the fixed G1 & G4 sub-design types ready (they delivered a mis-coded G1 & G4 last week).

I'm still supporting the Cascade though which maybe what's confusing you, but my life has been chock-a-block full with my real-job and family and I've had no time to get stuff off (upgrade Cascade tops etc) to people for the last two weeks, with my apologies to all concerned (about 5 people).
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Unread 05-25-2004, 08:26 PM   #103
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Thanks for the link Cathar.

I'd like to see pH have the chance to test this also, I find it unlikly that it can best the Cascade by 3C. It also looks like it would have a very high pressure drop.

What sort of flow rate did the German testers use? I recall the one sites testing a while back of your blocks, not a very good one.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 08:29 PM   #104
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Yeah, just read your site again and realised I must have mis-interpretted what ya said (it's late! ). No problem mate - you're doing a great job and I'm sure everyone understands.

My mum's boyfriend has a CNC machine and he's pretty interested in my water cooling (he built my enclosure which I should be installing within the next two weeks - I'll take pics and post them at my thread ASAP http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...?t=8639&page=7). Hopefully sometime in the near future we'll get to play around with some designs as he's a very clever and skilled guy. Doubt we'll get anything to your level though. Still, will be fun trying
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Unread 05-25-2004, 08:29 PM   #105
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Default How many Cascades have you sold?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
I probably shipped about 2/3's as many Cascades to the UK as I shipped to the US, and the UK absorbed well over half of the total number of Cascade SS blocks I made - the strong value of the UK Pound in comparison to the Aussie dollar made the Cascade SS look like a relative bargain...
I'm curious Cathar, how many Cascade blocks have you sold? Which country is your biggest customer?

I've also noticed, in all this international brouhaha we are having, that no one has mentioned the Japanese. Normally performance electronics and weird mod/tweaks on them are pretty common in Japan. Yet the country seems completely absent regarding representation in the water-cooling scene. Ever wonder why? I do, I think its strange.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 08:31 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
What sort of flow rate did the German testers use? I recall the one sites testing a while back of your blocks, not a very good one.
They didn't quantify. Yes - same site as before with the 3C thing. My best guess is 0.4-0.5GPM flow rates. Coincidentally they also put the RBX on par with the Cascade at those flow rates which certainly doesn't gel with any other reputable test (both public and private) - hence my strong desire to get the "best of the German blocks" over to Phaestus to test.

Heck, I'll even pay for all of it if someone in Europe will order it and send it to Phaestus. The CF-2 block can't be ordered from outside of the Euro nations....

Any takers?
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Unread 05-25-2004, 08:40 PM   #107
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I have an Innovatek XX I could send to pHaestus
wrong shape for a fishing weight
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Unread 05-25-2004, 08:41 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAL-9000
I'm curious Cathar, how many Cascade blocks have you sold? Which country is your biggest customer?
Enough to cover costs for the Cascade development, and to cover my current R&D costs, and that's about it. Unsure of the exact number, but it's totally "small-time" in comparison to the big boys. I did make 39 Cascade SS's though, the level of interest in which surprised the heck out of me.

USA was by far the biggest consumer, probably about 40% of the total. UK about 25%. Australia about 15%. France about 10%. The rest in very small percentages (typically just single blocks) to Belgium, Denmark, Japan, Brazil, Canada, Malaysia, Finland, Sweden, Germany, Greece, Italy, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Phillipines.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 08:44 PM   #109
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So for the number of individuals in the US & UK the UK water coolers were buying your blocks by a much larger %. Another interesting point which also greatly supports your earlier post on UK being closer to the US than Germany when it comes to water cooling set ups.

I'm looking forward to seeing the new Storm design you've been working on.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 08:57 PM   #110
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Cathar - I can do some buying for ya if ya like (I'm in Wales, UK). Just let me know what you want, where to send it etc.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 09:01 PM   #111
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Let me guess....you guys are going to want lower than 0.5 GPM flow rates for these tests
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Unread 05-25-2004, 09:07 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightic
That wouldn't be the case in this instance.

No manner of taxes would account for that level of price inflation on an electrical item.

Dell simply charges that amount over here because we're all idiots and don't mind paying :shrug:

Further reading:

Inq
well that misses the reason why they are expensive here - which is the same reason why Levis etc are - european law lets the manufacturer tightly control the distribution of branded products and prevent "grey market" imports from outside the EU...

the reason why "Someone could probably make a very healthy profit buying these things in the US and shipping them over Europe" is that they'd be liable to legal action from Dell

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/11...ing_what_does/
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Unread 05-25-2004, 09:08 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Let me guess....you guys are going to want lower than 0.5 GPM flow rates for these tests
I would think that your .5 gpm starting point should be fine pH.

Then go well up from there as usual............
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Unread 05-25-2004, 09:11 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldenton
well that misses the reason why they are expensive here - which is the same reason why Levis etc are - european law lets the manufacturer tightly control the distribution of branded products and prevent "grey market" imports from outside the EU...

the reason why "Someone could probably make a very healthy profit buying these things in the US and shipping them over Europe" is that they'd be liable to legal action from Dell

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/11...ing_what_does/
What possible good is such a set up going to do besides allow companys to rape the consumer........?

How did such a set up come about?
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Unread 05-25-2004, 09:15 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meethoss
Cathar - I can do some buying for ya if ya like (I'm in Wales, UK). Just let me know what you want, where to send it etc.
Hmmm, trying to find someone who sells it on-line via Credit Card. The CoolCases site wants you to do a direct deposit into their German bank account...
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Unread 05-25-2004, 09:20 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
I have an Innovatek XX I could send to pHaestus
wrong shape for a fishing weight
LMFAO

Anyway............

You know i think this is always going to be a grey area regardless of how strong yours or anybody's particular currency is but (and i mean this without bias what so ever) there is always going to be the person who wants fantastic results for minimal outlay and on the other side of the fence there will be people who see products for what they are and will pay the going rate for them whether it be cars, houses, Sunday dinners even, we seem to have Sunday Dinner wars around our local hostelry's at present ................feed a family of 4 for £9.99 lol

Extreme case sinario.......wasn't there a Picasso painting just sold for like 98 million $'s to an un-named buyer................madness to you or i but this is the point where money becomes irrelevant (or does somebody know something i don't???)

Not that money is irrelevant to me but i will say I am one lucky enough to own one of the SS Cascades and shamelessly in all honesty i haven't got a clue to this day how much it cost (not as much as Picasso i hope lol) but what I can say is, its the best block bar none that i have ever owned............so for that to me its was worth every penny (and i know i'm not alone when i say that and also why it may of supprised you)

At the end of the day nobody likes to be ripped off and who can blame anyone wanting maximum bang for buck irrespective of what it is they are shelling out their £££'s for but its always nice to see which car is faster (Cather analogy) and then at least one can make an adult decision bases on relatively unweighted facts............hopefully!
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Unread 05-25-2004, 09:22 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
A comparison of kits is all fine and good..........so far as it goes.

The EU is most likly to win (I'll be very surprised if they don't) as the low number of offered US kits are all designed for modest cost + ease of use. Performance isn't that great when compared to a DIY kit of equal investment.

Much better to let Pug chose his set up within the $ limit he set (be it DIY or a kit) while the board members here reach a agreed upon set up of DIY parts. If a few other rules regarding the number of fans to have ect. are wanted that would also work. But a test limited to kits will prove nothing as far as which is really the best approach. None of the US kits I know of combine enough high end components to really show what the best DIY 1/2" set ups can do.

$380.00 is ample to build a good strong set up from DIY parts.

rad = heater core 2-342 = $30.00 at Napa
shroud = $10.00 in materials to make it.
120mm fans x 2 or 4 depending on agreed rules. $20 - $40
CPU block = Swiftech's new 6002 = $45.00
5 ft of clear flex = $10.00
fittings = $5.00

Total so far = $140.00 taking the most expensive route on fan costs.
This leaves out of Pug's $380.00 original budget $240.00 still remaining with which to buy a pump.

Iwaki MD20rlzt = $180.00

Still leaves $60.00 that I've no idea how to spend unless it were to add a GPU block.

Some on the board may disagree with one or more of the parts I've named, but not a bad starting point. And Pug there isn't one part named that isn't used by a number of water coolers. Although I'll grant the users of the MD20 are a minority. But then if you want to see which is the better route for water cooling one should use the best parts.

Pug,

Any pics of the inside of the block you depicted as your first choice? It's a nice shiny one for sure.

Best O/C would, along with temp. be another way of testing performance.

Edit: weeded out some overheated remarks.
hmm - just a quick thought while i wait for the second period to start, but it occurs to me that, since the (potential) buyers buy them for a purpose, the best way to ensure a realistic playing field may be to specify the case it is for...
then each "competitor" can select parts/a kit that fit within (whilst allowing sufficient hardware to give a reasonably functional rig...)

i would suggest some reasonably desirable mid-tower (lian maybe?) on the basis that any kit that requires a pc70 or similar huge case is doomed to marginal appeal.....
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Unread 05-25-2004, 09:31 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
What possible good is such a set up going to do besides allow companys to rape the consumer........?

How did such a set up come about?
err - because the EU is not a democratic institution.......

they are even handed though and let EU businesses charge rip-off prices here too
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Unread 05-25-2004, 09:34 PM   #119
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Let's see I have a Chieftec midtower and an AMS GTower case that I could use. The Chieftec has been cut up a little on the front (to fit a heatercore lol) but I could return it to similar to stock. This case has 4x80mm fan holes (2 front and 2 back). The AMD GTower has 1 120mm exhaust and 1 120mm blowhole on top. It also has an 80mm intake in front (very restrictive though). Other than that I'd have to buy a case.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 09:50 PM   #120
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Default The G-Tower sounds kinda good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
Let's see I have a Chieftec midtower and an AMS GTower case that I could use. The Chieftec has been cut up a little on the front (to fit a heatercore lol) but I could return it to similar to stock. This case has 4x80mm fan holes (2 front and 2 back). The AMD GTower has 1 120mm exhaust and 1 120mm blowhole on top. It also has an 80mm intake in front (very restrictive though). Other than that I'd have to buy a case.

With two 120's it would probably be pretty fair I think. Most people are using a heatercore/BIX that takes a 120mm fan. With the RAD fan blowing in, and an identical fan blowing out, it would keep the case pretty aired out. And its simple.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 09:51 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Hmmm, trying to find someone who sells it on-line via Credit Card. The CoolCases site wants you to do a direct deposit into their German bank account...
LOL, I looked at that site and even with my GCSE German and the Google translator I didn't get anywhere Oh well, let me know if you find anything.

BTW, it's only 1/8" ID? Craaaaazzzzyyyy!
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Unread 05-25-2004, 09:56 PM   #122
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Humm. One thing I never understood about this "quiet" vrs. "performance" argument is that the higher the block performs the quieter you should be able to get the system. :shrug: If the block can remove MORE heat (higher performance) then you will need a smaller/slower/quieter fan on the rad.... This holds true if the high performance block works better at lower flow rates than a lesser block.

I don't know. Hell right now I got an XP1700+ running on a $5 HS with a 60mm to 80mm fan adapter with a 25CFM 80mm fan and it runs comfortly at 45-50C. That is also my gaming system. I can hear the hard drive over the HSF and I got a fairly quiet hard drive. Sure I probably couldn't do that with a faster processor but I don't need a faster processor. Plays all the games I play just fine UT2003/4 included.

I guess it is up to the user and their requirements.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:11 PM   #123
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On the noise thing, one thing I've noticed with the impingement blocks and powerful pumps is that the blocks do develop a real "hissing" noise. With the "Storm" (which is also doing other things to stir the water up) and using really what are quite dramatically high pressure drops (11mH2O) the block is certainly about as noisy as a case-fan. Dropping back to a more realistic 3mH2O "high-end" level and the noise is audible with your ear near it, but not at any distance.

Perhaps something to consider in the quest for more pumping power.

I tell ya - trying to squeeze even the quite squishable Tygon tubing at 11mH2O (~16PSI) is quite an effort. The tubing certainly does expand quite visibly when the pumps are engaged, which I guess can be something of an argument for 3/8" ID tubing with restrictive blocks. When the pressure's on, the tubing expands and essentially has a larger ID and a consequentially lower pressure drop as a result.

Just random thoughts...
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:31 PM   #124
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I think in the near future we will see the move to 3/4" tubing. This is what I am using and have been pleased with the results so far. If anything the fittings can sometimes be easier to find. As for 3/8ths, fo-get-about it. Even 1/2" is pushing twoard the low performance end. These days you gotta go big. Wait around to long and Dell will release a watercooled PC with 1/2" tubing.
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Unread 05-25-2004, 10:55 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
On the noise thing, one thing I've noticed with the impingement blocks and powerful pumps is that the blocks do develop a real "hissing" noise. With the "Storm" (which is also doing other things to stir the water up) and using really what are quite dramatically high pressure drops (11mH2O) the block is certainly about as noisy as a case-fan. Dropping back to a more realistic 3mH2O "high-end" level and the noise is audible with your ear near it, but not at any distance.

Perhaps something to consider in the quest for more pumping power.
hmm - maybe you need to design in some acoustic damping
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