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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 06-30-2004, 03:37 PM   #201
nicozeg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelyuen
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Unread 06-30-2004, 03:59 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlaterSpeed
Yeh ive seen that one before. The guys test bench is his bedroom floor! nuf said

Pug are you sending over that Alpha Cool kit? Thats almost a highflow setup. Big pump!
nothing can be trusted outside the lab?
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Unread 06-30-2004, 04:06 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelyuen
nothing can be trusted outside the lab?
Well thats debatable but IMO threse only a handful of people in the world who i would attualy trust to test stuff like that. You do have to be very careful
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Unread 06-30-2004, 04:11 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlaterSpeed
Well thats debatable but IMO threse only a handful of people in the world who i would attualy trust to test stuff like that. You do have to be very careful
when there is a heat simulator machine, the flow is not good enough
when there is enough flow, the test bench room is not good enough

whats wrong with his review in his room anyway?
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Unread 06-30-2004, 04:16 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelyuen
nothing can be trusted outside the lab?
A number of anomalies:

Quote:
I verified the accuracy of this Thermistor to within +/-2C
Quote:
I was able to maintain a constant ambient room temp of 20C/68F (+/-2C)
Well I just counted up to an 8C margin of variation right there...

Reviews that report absolute temperatures, with wildly swinging room temperatures that affect the temperature of the water, is like doing archery in a gusty storm. You have no idea of how close to the mark you'll be.
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Unread 06-30-2004, 04:27 PM   #206
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i guess we will have to wait few weeks til Ph gets the alphacool block
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Unread 06-30-2004, 05:02 PM   #207
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pug: Screw it and send it. Value it low please.. I'll use my monthly computer budget for this month on shipping fees and duty I guess (was heading in that direction anyway).
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Unread 06-30-2004, 05:34 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelyuen
when there is a heat simulator machine, the flow is not good enough
when there is enough flow, the test bench room is not good enough

whats wrong with his review in his room anyway?
control, resolution, calibration, accuracy, and procedure

the testing was crap, but quite enough to write a review
and the review was indeed good enough for you (else you would not be asking)

not too sure just which of the mfgrs got 'done', but I'm glad Swiftech gear was not included
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Unread 06-30-2004, 06:08 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
but I'm glad Swiftech gear was not included
I would say that being included in such a review would be most serious mfgr's nightmare.
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Unread 06-30-2004, 06:24 PM   #210
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Default He's trying harder...but still needs some work

Sounds like he has taken some criticisms from here to heart. I love the way he places his temp probes in a ice bath (kinda like phaestus); but doesn't really describe what he did from that point on to actually calibrate the probes over any kind of statistical distribution. Its like if you put it in a ice bath, that alone does something.

Note also the TDX temps are a degree cooler...running 100Mhz faster with a higher V-core than the previous run. As a matter of fact, its the same temp as idle on the completely stock-clocked test. Calibration indeed.

I also find humor in his insistence on the word malleable being relevant here to the TDX. He even had a little hyperlink to a dictionary defintion of it. I guess from a technical point, he's right. Perhaps he doesn't understand the perception of the word in vernacular English though. Nice macro pics though; he must have a nice camera.
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Unread 06-30-2004, 10:57 PM   #211
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Now why don't respectable sites like Procooling.com or Overclockers.com get high quality (and EXPENSIVE) German waterblocks like this guy? I bet if you wrote a letter to them they'd probably send you one. I'm sure they'd appreciate more business in the US market.
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Unread 07-01-2004, 12:11 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldenton
hmm - would they not come under 9993.00.00 ?(as long as you're going to send them back within 18 months - or indeed send them anywhere outside canada...)
It's a possibility Paul, thanks for looking.
Here's another category I found which might be applicable

9988.00.00 Apparatus, utensils, instruments and parts thereof, other than goods of Chapter 70, when to be employed:

(a) directly in teaching or research by
(iii) any non-governmental organization incorporated or established in Canada solely for educational purposes or solely for the purpose of carrying out research designed to benefit the public at large, if carrying out its objectives without pecuniary return to its members or shareholders other than as salaries or fees for duties performed or as reimbursement of expenses incurred


Sure sounds like ProCooling to me.


pHaestus - thanks. I'll probably end up paying somewhere in excess of that to get it to you in the first place but it's all in the interests of awareness-raising and removal of the amount of doubt and hypothesis that goes on around and about.
Look forward to your findings.



Slater - High flow kit? Come on... High velocity, maybe.
10mm ID & under is my domain. You guys with your 1/2" and 3/4" setups are the high flow lot.

The kit in question may as well be the CustomPC one, as although there are variations of it, it's nicely balanced as it is.

Contents as follows:-
1x Black Ice Xtreme II radiator - these are a new version that I've hardly seen about which have G1/4 threaded connections for interchangeable fittings
2x Papst 4412F/2GML 120mm fan - these are (typically ) now being phased out by Papst, so instead of supplying these - we'll be supplying 2x Papst 4412F/2GL 120mm fans with the retail kit instead (with the option to upgrade free-of-charge from my own personal stash of F/2GMLs on request while stocks last). As BillA requested our "silent" kit, I'll leave it as GLs for this test and hope that if he can front the requisite two 120mm fan rad, pH could swap & test the fan options more easily between the two.
2x 12v/7v adapter cable (for optional use)
1x AP1500 pump (consisting of an AP900 and the 12-24V variable transformer module) was included just to help edge us further ahead of the competition in the magazine article (the increased noise of the pump at 24Volt is hardly worth the degree or two it affords but many people will find they can select the appropriate voltage setting to trade off performance against acceptable noise level 12v/15v/18v/21v/24v selectable)
- together with this, there's a velcro pad for pump mounting and an ATX jumper block (which is like the mobo socket but with the green bridge wire for 12v pump priming independent of the mobo being powered)
1 x Cape Coolplex 25 external reservoir - basically a perspex cylinder res with a couple of one-screw mounting rings
4metres 10/8mm clear polyurethane (PUR) tubing - I'm tempted to offer a substitution on this of the 10/7mm PUR PE (polyurethane polyether) stuff I'm using in my ClearPC but am still testing it right now
10mm Ni-brass plugin/pushfit fittings throughout
Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Interface Material. I guess you'll be using the testing version of this anyway, so I can send it with or without this.
500ml Tec Ice Protect pre-mixed coolant
and king of the show... the NexXxoS XP block [the Silver (Ni-plated) version] (unless you want to cover the shipping instead of me and then I'll send you my own gold plated version )
complete with appropriate hex key for installation of same.


At the end of the day - I make my choice at a balance of performance, usability and lesser restriction to internal airflow (which is something a lot of people forget about when selecting their oversize tubing).
Uninhibited radiator airflow is easily as important than coolant flow rate to me (but weighed up against silence to give an efficient all round system which suits most users' needs, whichever their preference).

BillA - Long term reliability is our design brief. Installation convenience is all very well for those who just want to deal with "bolt-on" parts but we're catering more specifically to the slightly more dedicated enthusiast market here, so those that don't mind a bit of jigsaw/dremel work will be more of our target demographic.
With that said, if you can fit the rad, you've done the hardest part. :shrug:


In closing, I'd like to publicly extend my personal thanks, gratitude & appreciation to Taner DeMirci and alphacool.de for backing me in this and other testing ventures, without whom, this could well have been less likely if not impossible to arrange.
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Unread 07-01-2004, 01:12 PM   #213
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i want that NexXxoS XP block, looks better than my 1ahv2
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Unread 07-01-2004, 03:36 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelyuen
i want that NexXxoS XP block, looks better than my 1ahv2
You'll probably like the rest of the kit too then. piccy <-- clicky

The metal collar plugin fittings supplied don't normally come cheap but I've always used them by way of personal preference and you've gotta admit they are teh sexy (apart from being better suited to use with liquids rather than the gases that poly collar ones are generally recommended for).
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Unread 07-01-2004, 10:34 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug
You'll probably like the rest of the kit too then. piccy <-- clicky

The metal collar plugin fittings supplied don't normally come cheap but I've always used them by way of personal preference and you've gotta admit they are teh sexy (apart from being better suited to use with liquids rather than the gases that poly collar ones are generally recommended for).
i really like the waterblock, its very shinny
but i dont like the radiator, there is no fan grill that fits the BIX2, at least its not made for that. iam using the airplex 240, gonna change it after summer.
The res. wouldnt fit in my case, iam using a lian li pc-7
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Unread 07-01-2004, 10:47 PM   #216
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Wow Pug, what started out as a challenge for "German" vs "US" style kits, and the kit you've laid out there can best be described as being strongly in the spirit of a "US" kit.

The pump you included is stronger than many US-style systems are setup with, and certainly far, far, far stronger than a choked down Eheim 1046.

The radiator, being a dual-fan radiator, is exactly what most US-style proponents call for.

8mm ID push-fit tubing is basically equivalent to the lower end of the US-style 3/8" ID slip-over-barb setups.

In essence, what you've specified there, is a setup that is 90% "US", with the only "European" consolation being the tubing, but even then being push-fit and 8mm ID, it's still what many in the USA would call acceptable.

If anything, I see that "US"-style has already won a moral victory before any testing is done, given what you've assembled there.

When most people in the USA think "German", they're typically thinking:

Eheim 1046
6mm (1/4") ID tubing
Single low-speed fan 12cm radiator
Restrictive reservoir
Waterblock to suit tubing size

Now how does the kit you've assembled resemble anything like that?

If anything, your kit is more in the spirit of "English", which before I pointed out, was mostly in line with the USA perception of performance, with some European influences, and that is exactly what you've assembled.
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Unread 07-01-2004, 11:17 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Wow Pug, what started out as a challenge for "German" vs "US" style kits, and the kit you've laid out there can best be described as being strongly in the spirit of a "US" kit.

The pump you included is stronger than many US-style systems are setup with, and certainly far, far, far stronger than a choked down Eheim 1046.

The radiator, being a dual-fan radiator, is exactly what most US-style proponents call for.

8mm ID push-fit tubing is basically equivalent to the lower end of the US-style 3/8" ID slip-over-barb setups.

In essence, what you've specified there, is a setup that is 90% "US", with the only "European" consolation being the tubing, but even then being push-fit and 8mm ID, it's still what many in the USA would call acceptable.

If anything, I see that "US"-style has already won a moral victory before any testing is done, given what you've assembled there.

When most people in the USA think "German", they're typically thinking:

Eheim 1046
6mm (1/4") ID tubing
Single low-speed fan 12cm radiator
Restrictive reservoir
Waterblock to suit tubing size

Now how does the kit you've assembled resemble anything like that?

If anything, your kit is more in the spirit of "English", which before I pointed out, was mostly in line with the USA perception of performance, with some European influences, and that is exactly what you've assembled.
US vs german = double heater core VS single low-speed fan 12cm radiator
lol
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Unread 07-01-2004, 11:25 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelyuen
US vs german = double heater core VS single low-speed fan 12cm radiator
lol
Not even worth spending any effort to formulate a response, especially if that's all the mental effort that you put into reading something.
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Unread 07-01-2004, 11:32 PM   #219
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thats the radiator german ppl use
the one on the right is as thick as the thermal chill 120


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Unread 07-01-2004, 11:44 PM   #220
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Personally, I think it would be much more exciting (and maybe cheaper) if Pug could send a few different european waterblocks instead of the complete system he put together.

At the moment I'm wondering which block would be best suited with the c-systems pump and a heatercore. Right now it seems the 6002 holds that spot but perhaps one of those european blocks might be able to bump it out.

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Unread 07-01-2004, 11:54 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelyuen
thats the radiator german ppl use
the one on the right is as thick as the thermal chill 120
It's also a highly restrictive continuous tubed radiator. If that's the radiator that "most" German people use, then why is that not part of the test suite?

The Black Ice Xtreme II radiators that Pug included were made primarily for the US high-flow style market. They are a low flow restriction radiator.

Still, fine, even if we kept the radiators the same, the pump that is included does not typify a quiet low-wattage low-head low-flow pump that most people associate with German systems. When over-volted above 12V like Pug is proposing, it is powerful enough in terms of its delivery pressure head to ram more flow rate through an 8mm ID tubing push-fit setup, than the Swiftech MCP600 could probably achieve through a 1/2" barbed setup.

Herein is the rub. Pug's setup consists of a powerful pump that is designed to fight any restrictions in the setup. It is not "elegant" in the way that typifies most German systems, which is a small low-power low-pressure pump not particularly stressed about pushing low flow rates through thin tubing.

Crap, I'd use that pump if I could. I think many US people would be more than happy to use that pump. When over-volted as planned, it'd be more powerful than a Danner Mag 3, or a Laing D4.

Back to the radiator though, it's primarily a very popular US-market radiator.

So basically the setup is one whose pump is strong enough to make most US setups envious, a radiator that is essentially one of the better US-style radiators on the market (in terms of performance), a tubing setup that on the whole is not a great deal more restrictive than various US setups, and one of the highest performing German-derived blocks as perhaps the only "consolation", which I might add is made using pin-fin and impingement concepts that have been pushed hard in the USA for a while now.

It is a USA setup for all intents and purposes. It's a setup that most people in the USA would look at, and see that it's setup in a way in which they can understand as to how it would perform well.

It's a long, long way away from the not-so-humble beginnings of this thread that pleaded a case for, and I quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightic
a European (specifically German ie. 1/4-3/8" ID fittings, multipass tube radiators, small/quiet pumps) set-ups in comparision with more modern, 'extreme' ones (ie. 1/2"+ ID fittings, heatercores, powerful pumps - for brevity I'll herein refer to this as the "US-type").
Of the points raised by nightic, the kit assembled by Pug fits well and truly in the US-style he described, with the only exception being the barbs/tubing size, and even then, not a particularly big exception.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 12:10 AM   #222
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I should add:

This "contest" is no longer a measure of the US vs German approach. This is a stacked marketing effort designed to allow for the promotion of a line of products sold by an English water-cooling reseller.

The issue of "German vs US" left the room long ago. This thread has for the last few pages now been totally about competitive marketing and product promotion and positioning.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 12:25 AM   #223
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typical german watercooling is 1046-1048, 6/8mm tube, G1/8 waterblock and res.

i think its best to test the waterblock rather than the whole kit
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Unread 07-02-2004, 12:30 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelyuen
i think its best to test the waterblock rather than the whole kit
I do agree on that one. If we remove the marketing posturing that's been going on for the last few pages of the thread, what it really comes down to is whether or not a top-end German block at low flow rates (<0.5gpm) is better than a US block at moderate-high flow rates (1-2gpm). That is really the crux of it. The radiators and pumps for either setup can be chosen to suit the "needs" of the block. A low-flow block doesn't need a powerful pump, big tubing, and an unrestrictive radiator. A high-flow block does, more-or-less.

Still, and it gets murky even here. Many of the newer blocks coming out of USA/Australia are more moderate in their demands for "high" flow rates, with a fair number of them being quite happy in the 0.5-1.5gpm range.

Last edited by Cathar; 07-02-2004 at 12:35 AM.
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Unread 07-02-2004, 12:41 AM   #225
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I am expecting to see the performance on both blocks on different flow rate scenarios so that we may have a full picture (C/W VS flow rate curve from 0.25 gpm to 2gpm). By this way, people can choose what they really need according to their specified need and setup.
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