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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 05-27-2004, 05:26 AM   #26
Les
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Poiseuille's Law ?
Your assuming laminar flow?
Strange.
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Unread 05-27-2004, 06:25 AM   #27
Polski Radon
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This has given me a great idea..

I'll be starting WC when I have enough money in a few weeks, so I was thinking of converting my (air) MC 462 to watercool just like this one does.

I'll see what happens.
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Unread 05-27-2004, 07:37 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polski Radon
This has given me a great idea..

I'll be starting WC when I have enough money in a few weeks, so I was thinking of converting my (air) MC 462 to watercool just like this one does.

I'll see what happens.
Erm, if memory serves, the pins on Swifty heatsinks are Aluminium right? Physical contact between dissimilar metals in water is a big no no.

Also, gone_fishin, long time no see.
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Unread 05-27-2004, 07:41 AM   #29
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Lets talk DIY - Presumably, an individual with a small drill bit (3/32"? 1/16"?) some patience, and a drill press could create a reasonable imitation of this sort of pin density and size using the #rotor method, then fabricate the halfmoon and slap a top on. I realize the pins would be diamond-shaped rather than round, but I still think we'd be looking at a new non-CNC DIY performance king. Any thoughts?

EDIT: Added concept drawing
Attached Images
File Type: gif mcw6kclone.gif (15.4 KB, 41 views)
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Unread 05-27-2004, 08:08 AM   #30
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Ok, didn't know about that.

What if I used the Fluid XP+ that's reviewed at Overclockers.com? Linky
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Unread 05-27-2004, 08:21 AM   #31
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Quote Polski Radon
"What if I used the Fluid XP+ that's reviewed at Overclockers.com?" end quote

Buy a real waterblock with the money instead of throwing it away on golden water (or is that golden showers?).
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Unread 05-27-2004, 11:19 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gone_fishin

Buy a real waterblock with the money instead of throwing it away on golden water (or is that golden showers?).
My thoughts exactly. The base of the MCX is way too thick anyway.
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Unread 05-27-2004, 11:28 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BalefireX
Lets talk DIY - Presumably, an individual with a small drill bit (3/32"? 1/16"?) some patience, and a drill press could create a reasonable imitation of this sort of pin density and size using the #rotor method, then fabricate the halfmoon and slap a top on. I realize the pins would be diamond-shaped rather than round, but I still think we'd be looking at a new non-CNC DIY performance king. Any thoughts?

EDIT: Added concept drawing
that design is poor because there is too many places for the water to go where its not cooling...it should have a clearcut path where it enters, cools, and leaves. it shouldnt hang around at all.
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Unread 05-27-2004, 11:36 AM   #34
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not upset, a reviewer can do as they wish (cut your hand, eh ?)
not interested in adding fuel to the fire, but Jabo is closest - but incomplete
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Unread 05-27-2004, 11:42 AM   #35
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I think I'd just buy a MCW6000-A rather than drilling all those tiny holes...

Almost all heatsink bases will be too thick for optimal performance.
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Unread 05-27-2004, 12:08 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronchev
that design is poor because there is too many places for the water to go where its not cooling...it should have a clearcut path where it enters, cools, and leaves. it shouldnt hang around at all.
Erm - that design is quite blatently stolen from the MCW-6000 (if you look at the original picture, its the same approximate pin number and density with the same inlet placement, same outlet, and same half moon deflector... Since pH's review places the MCW6000 up there in Cascade territory, I wouldn't call it a poor design by any stretch of the word.

EDIT: Re pH's comment
I agree - thats 361 holes (19x19) with a very small drill bit - not a quick task. Then add in the dremeling - seriously fiddly work to make sure you leave that halfmoon unbroken. However, if someone has more time than money, or simply would rather make the block themself, its not a bad idea. I'll most likely be getting MCW6002s for my Opteron system, but I'd still be interested to see the performance of a DIY MCW6kClone.
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Unread 05-27-2004, 12:56 PM   #37
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Well they took it to the gates in performance, now if they could just do a little bit about style. If I get it I think I am going to have to cut a custom retention piece to give it a nice looks because right now that just says "Sweater Vest"
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Unread 05-27-2004, 01:11 PM   #38
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I suppose one could chrome or nickel plate the wb top (you can do this w/o dipping the bp right?) or powder coat it.
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Unread 05-27-2004, 01:30 PM   #39
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we have some colors 'in the mill', no timing (weeks away)

do not powder coat the wb, temps too high
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Unread 05-27-2004, 03:24 PM   #40
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Quote:
that design is poor because there is too many places for the water to go where its not cooling...it should have a clearcut path where it enters, cools, and leaves. it shouldnt hang around at all.
D00de! that's the whole point of this design, coolant DOES NOT 'hang around' , it 'hangs around' more in Cathar's blocks than in this one


Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
not upset, a reviewer can do as they wish (cut your hand, eh ?)
not interested in adding fuel to the fire, but Jabo is closest - but incomplete
I did not want to elaborate here too much. All is needed here is a simple visualisation (ran in your mind's eye) of movements of 6 coolant particles placed eqaully around inlets perimeter (pretend there are only 6 of them in total and analyze interactions with block's walls&pins taking into consideration velocity, inertia and pressure gradients - hint=velocity is highest along the straight line connecting edges of crescent and inlet tube=end of hint).

Les-> why do you assume that calling Poiseuille's Law equals thinking laminar flow? Re number increases with coolants velocity, right? Pins/crescent by producing an obstacle create localized regions of high velocity (think about high rise buildings and windy day) increasing Re number and thinning down boundary layer.
Geometry of Swiffy's block enhances 'verge velocity' of coolant.
Please, do not make me to go into more detail, I'd bore myself to death doing so

Flow control=equalization of coolants velocity=>more coolants particles participate in thermal exchange = much better efficiency and performance allowing this block to come close to jet type designs.

Teaser-> what about a design having impingement velocity flow at every point of water-copper contact over the whole footprint of a block's base? Wouldn't that be just fantastic?
Impingement designs base on velocity since it was devised to achieve max cooling density per mm^2. Now, without using nuclear reactor size coolant pumps how would you do it in PC water block design using DIY methods (dead cheap solution in watts/£ ratio)?


P.S. That's why I asked you BillA about your R&D, costs and why such design and not 'something new'
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Unread 05-27-2004, 04:42 PM   #41
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business (commerce) is about cost effectiveness,
too close to the bone for luxuries here
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Unread 05-27-2004, 04:53 PM   #42
Les
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabo
....
Les-> why do you assume that calling Poiseuille's Law equals thinking laminar flow?
.....
Poiseuille's Law only applies to laminar flow - see for example the link I gave.
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Unread 05-27-2004, 05:15 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les
Poiseuille's Law only applies to laminar flow - see for example the link I gave.
Yes, but to get any idea of how the whole thing works that's the best equations I know for allowing to understand basic relationships.
We all know that turbulent flow in heat ecxchangers is what we are after.
I never attempted to give Poiseuille's Law as an universal fluid flaw description tool. It is useful with arriving at turbulent flow. After critical Re value is reached we are in deep $hit as far as mathematical description of such flow conditions is concerned.
There are two ways of approaching this (well three if you account for expriments). One is probabilistic apporach where you use massive number crunchin power to predict where groups of/single particles are at the moment, their velocity vector and calue.
The second one is simply calculating movements of each and every particle of coolant - number crunching power neded is mind gobbling here but calcs are extremely simple. I just wonder if it would be possible to limit number of calcs by entertaining nono-scale model where number of molecules is extremely limited
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Unread 05-27-2004, 08:34 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee116
The little divider caught me off gaurd though. Makes me wonder why the Aqua Gold block has this divider milled in when all they need to do is bend a thin peice of metal and set it in the pins.

Good stuff pH.
The original plan did call for a thin piece of bent metal to control the flow for the Aqua Gold. We went ahead with milling the top because we had to mill the top anyway and leaving the wall on top at that point was no big deal. There was also some concern by some members at aquajoe that a thin piece a metal would resonate and cause problem.
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Unread 05-27-2004, 08:43 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemac
The original plan did call for a thin piece of bent metal to control the flow for the Aqua Gold. We went ahead with milling the top because we had to mill the top anyway and leaving the wall on top at that point was no big deal. There was also some concern by some members at aquajoe that a thin piece a metal would resonate and cause problem.
No you wouldn't have had to mill the top, and in fact you would have had a considerable LESS amount of milling if you used the bent metal because you wouldn't have had to mill the area around the pins to fit the milled top around them. Could have shaved some $$$'s off your overhead. You knew that though.
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Unread 05-27-2004, 10:53 PM   #46
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It looks very dirty in there from the the brazing... and this has not affected the performance!

I thought the scaling would hinder the cooling properties of copper.
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Unread 05-28-2004, 02:00 AM   #47
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Now I really want to see how a Cascade performs in reverse. A slight suspicion has been growing for a while and the performance of MCW6000-A makes me wonder.
The question being is the key true impingement or purely turbulence.

(not suggesting it should be the same backwards as forwards, merely considering the mechanism)
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Unread 05-28-2004, 02:38 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incoherent
Now I really want to see how a Cascade performs in reverse. A slight suspicion has been growing for a while and the performance of MCW6000-A makes me wonder.
The question being is the key true impingement or purely turbulence.

(not suggesting it should be the same backwards as forwards, merely considering the mechanism)
In reverse? Meaning a group of jets targetted down in between pins? Something like the NeXXoS does? Works pretty well actually going by the NeXXoS's performance. The NeXXoS is tuned for low flows and is overly restrictive, stopping the jet impingement activity from properly developing. Would need to open it up a little bit to get it to fly better.
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Unread 05-28-2004, 02:59 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
In reverse? Meaning a group of jets targetted down in between pins? Something like the NeXXoS does? Works pretty well actually going by the NeXXoS's performance. The NeXXoS is tuned for low flows and is overly restrictive, stopping the jet impingement activity from properly developing. Would need to open it up a little bit to get it to fly better.
I was thinking simply pushing the water backwards through the block, inlet becomes outlet and vice versa. Thing is, it seems to me that the cascade has one of the highest surface areas for a given die coverage, and it's inherently turbulent. Of course it would be sub-optimal (jet height particularly, no forced flow into the cup rims etc) but by removing the jet impingement part of the equation it would be possible to quantify the "jet impingement" effect. It's been debated before but the question remains about whether it is true "jet impingement" I was convinced for a while, because of cascades performance delta but this new block can not be impinging in the strictly correct sense so it makes me wonder.
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Unread 05-28-2004, 03:39 AM   #50
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Thanks for the clarification. Cascade is more restrictive in reverse though, but it could be done. I'm busy testing now so I'll throw the SS on in reverse and let you know how it goes.

The Cascade kinda muddles between "true impingement" and turbulent flow hitting structures. A "true impingement" is something that is much more widely spaced out, which I have built and played with, but the effect of the cooling is somewhat uneven, and while offering overall temperatures about the same as a White Water, it doesn't allow for as stable CPU overclocks. To "smooth out" the heat-flux requires adding more bp material, but that then costs with increased temperatures and lowers the benefits seen when boosting the pumping pressure. I have often described the Cascade as more of a turbulent mashing of water in each cup, even though I refer to it as a real impingement block, it strictly isn't - however it is more of one than most anything else on the market. The MCW462-U is perhaps the only block out there that could be classified as "true impingement".

So yeah, you're right, a turbulence mashing is perhaps a better description and can be achieved in many ways, be it a mash in a cup, or a mash around some pins, or a mash following some (optionally bumpy) fins.
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