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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums. |
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07-24-2004, 11:01 AM | #1 |
Big PlayerMaking Big Money
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Liquid Cooling Knowledge Base
Ok guys in another thread we have been kicking around the idea of having a Wikipedia-style repository for water cooling information. What I envision this becoming is a sort of easily searchable, easily assessible front end for all the GOOD information that is out there on the web. Or in other words it's basically a way to take the good posts and links that are already stickied in forums across the web and convert them to a format that people will actually see and read and use. The noblest of goals.
What we seem to be looking at here is a user-submitted and group edited compendium. It is a HUGE endeavor when you think about the breadth of the topic. What we will end up with in essence is a web-based water cooling textbook. Joe has offered to code this up and implement it, and so we have to come up with a list of features for him to implement. I imagine a system where content is submitted in a textbox, edited for content and for readability by the overseers of that section of the compendium, cross-linked with other content for easier indexing and searching, and then made visible to all. Keywords will be a must. The way this should work if implemented properly is that the higher tiers of information should be readable and understandable without a lot of technical education (think executive summary here) but with links embedded that take you to more detailed results. So people can learn as they go as much as they want. There should also be extensive citations and references to engineering and technical specs offsite when it's possible. Now this will require active contributions from many people to succeed, and a lot of editing and fact checking from a smaller number of people. And it isn't the sort of thing that can be done in a week or two; this is a BIG SCALE project. Anyway this would be the time to tell me that my vision is way off base or that the concept itself is a bad one and make suggestions and changes. My thought is that it would be great to have good people from other sites involved: RoboTech, MYV65, Cathar, ??others?? Should we start with an outline? How big of a scope? Theory -Pressure/flow -Heat transfer Waterblock Construction -CAD -Machining --equipment --usage/tips/tricks Testing -Goals -Methods -Equipment -Data acquisistion/noise/automation? -Results from mfgrs and reviewers Implementation -Matching components for a system -Avoiding leaks -Optimizing your loop --noise/size/performance/cost --removing unnecessary restrictions --troubleshooting poor performance Components? -Pumps -Radiators -Waterblocks Thoughts? These would all be extensively linked together (so in the implementation you are kicked back to theory sections for WHY removing 90 degree fittings on the pump is a good idea etc). I would think that culling forum threads and stickies for gems, reposting them in a single, permanent, SEARCHABLE location would in itself be a good project. This would go far beyond that.
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07-24-2004, 11:03 AM | #2 |
Big PlayerMaking Big Money
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Oh and a good example of one way that COULD work is OC FAQ
I would favor a flow chart setup like that Google link web you showed yesterday though Bill
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07-24-2004, 11:17 AM | #3 |
CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered"
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pretty huge scope
do suggest doing it in discrete pieces, with lots of focus on a specific topic perhaps a good draft can be generated, then fleshed out by one or two doing a single topic initially may show how to structure the activity so it can maintain a sufficient activity level to complete a working draft the mouse stuff: more work for Groth, or does Joe know how to do such ? despite the bling bling factor, I suspect a fleshed out hierarchy might be more useful (using alt text to expand upon the category title) |
07-24-2004, 11:30 AM | #4 |
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Was (mostly) joking about that Google thing. It's a java app of some kind. It seems to me like the Design/Construction stuff is almost separate from the rest (as I outlined it anyway) and it is far out of my expertise. JayDee was considering putting together an article on milling and machining; maybe he could help coordinate that section...
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07-24-2004, 12:20 PM | #5 |
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I think the most important(most busy) sections would be the Components/Implementation section, with the Theory and Testing sections backing up with hard data when needed.
In Components section, would that be just a basic description of generic components or a comprehesive list of all mfgrs/products available in the market? Each product in that list could contain a brief overview of the product, links to reviews, known issues, etc. It could also have some sort of "suggested setup" for that product, just like when buying something in amazon.com and thereĀ“s that camp: "People who bought this item also bought". |
07-24-2004, 12:42 PM | #6 |
CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered"
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"People who bought this item also bought".
hmmm may not lead in the 'desired' direction, no (bent) spoons - make 'em use the info |
07-24-2004, 12:45 PM | #7 |
Cooling Savant
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A very interesting idea. I would be very happy to help out if i can.
IMO the biggest challange would be ensuring a high standard of information. Who have you got in mind to do the editing/fact checking side of things? I feel that is a very important issue. Dont want dogey info getting posted do we hehe Would this be a part of the procooling site or a seperate affair? |
07-24-2004, 01:35 PM | #8 |
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I would prefer to maintain control of it as part of procooling (more likely it would become the active part of procooling rather than writing separate articles like this).
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07-24-2004, 02:16 PM | #9 |
Cooling Savant
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Good thats what i was hopeing. (just been reading the other thread where this was mentioned and it basicly answerd most of my questions anyway)
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07-24-2004, 02:24 PM | #10 |
Big PlayerMaking Big Money
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well I am hoping at some point to get a javascript pulldown "System performance calculator" set up that will at first estimate final flow rate from pump P-Q curve, wb, hose, fitting, and radiator dP-Q curves, and then show final deltaT. Next step after that would be to get some radiator/fan performance data into the calculator as well.
That would be a lot more useful than "people who use x also use y" because just because a combination is popular doesn't make it optimal.
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07-24-2004, 06:12 PM | #11 |
Cooling Savant
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I think Bill is on the right track here - I think we should select one thing, preferably something reasonably simple, and see how it goes. Maybe we should do something on pump selection, as issues with testing that are what inspired this idea
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07-24-2004, 06:14 PM | #12 |
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Here is an (incomplete) outline that I started on yesterday after posting in the thread.
(Edit: Bah - damn formatting) 1. Introduction 2. The Basics 2.1 What is WaterCooling? 2.2 Why Watercool? 2.3 What can water-cooling do for you? 2.4 What water-cooling won't do for you? 3. What are the necessary components of a water-cooling setup 3.1 Water Block(s) - [At least one of the following is required] 3.1.1 CPU 3.1.2 GPU 3.1.3 Northbridge/Southbridge 3.1.4 Hard Drives 3.1.5 PSU 3.2 Pump 3.3 Heat Exchanger 3.3.1 Radiator 3.3.2 Fan 3.4 Tubing 3.5 What are the optional components of a water-cooling setup 3.5.1 Hose Clamps 3.5.2 Elbows and Bends 3.5.3 T-line filler and cap 3.5.4 Reservoir 3.5.5 3-tap fill and bleed 3.5.6 Water Additives 3.5.7 Flow Meter 3.5.8 TEC's/Peltier's 3.5.9 Water Chiller 4 DIY vs Kits vs Mix'n'Match 5 CPUs 5.1 Problem description 5.2 Heat produced 5.3 Basic heat exchance theory 6 Waterblocks 6.1 Metals used 6.2 Performance Terminology 6.3 Pressure Drop 7 Pump 7.1 Pump terminology and characteristics 7.1.1 Mains vs DC 7.1.2 Peak Head (Pressure) 7.1.3 Peak Flow 7.2 PQ Curves 7.3 Size 7.4 Power Draw and Heat 8 Heat Exchangers 8.1 Basics of water-air heater transfer 8.2 Radiators 8.2.1 Basic Types 8.2.2 Desirable Characteristics 8.2.3 Pressure Drop 8.2.4 Fans and fan characteristics (should probably be in its own section) 8.3 Direct Water-Air exchangers/Evaporative Coolers 8.3.1 Benefits 8.3.1.1 Dew point 8.3.2 Drawbacks 8.3.2.1 Pollution 8.3.2.2 Toxicity & Additives 8.3.2.3 Refilling 8.3.2.4 Noise 9 Tubing 9.1 Different Types 9.1.1 Vinyl 9.1.2 Silicone Rubber 9.2 Different Sizes 9.2.1 4mm->5/8" 9.2.2 Pressure Drop Characteristics 10 System Component Interactions 10.1 Pumping Power vs Back-pressure resistance 11 Deciphering Web Reviews of WaterCooling Products Last edited by Cathar; 07-24-2004 at 06:24 PM. |
07-24-2004, 07:13 PM | #13 |
Cooling Savant
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I would like to see this integrated/expanded upon, too
http://www.procooling.com/articles/h...g__-_phaes.php there are 7 or 8 things to add to that list, like: water must slow down to absorb heat or cool down too much flow is bad gold is the best thermal conductor etc
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07-24-2004, 09:59 PM | #14 |
Cooling Savant
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I'm happy to donate some of my time to help; busy work with formatting, doing general grammar/spelling checks...
If you're interested in having solidmodels made of major components and put into a photoshop file for easy file generation (ie, loop set ups, etc etc) I could also do that pretty easily. Anything solidworks/photoshop/illustrator/freehand/rendering based I can help out with. Just tell me what, and I'll do it ps i dont caddy, nor am i a ball boy |
07-25-2004, 03:21 AM | #15 |
Cooling Savant
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This is a nice source of information so that anyone having inquiries can have immediate answers.
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07-25-2004, 04:01 AM | #16 | |
Cooling Savant
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Great idea.
Quote:
I would love to see a one-stop guide to form factors. What type thread does a HD take? Where are the holes? Etc. All from one location. I don't believe this has been compiled before. |
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07-25-2004, 09:27 AM | #17 |
Cooling Savant
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I can commit some time to this as well.
I'm something of a neophyte, possibly know as much as other folks about some noise/audio issues, know which end of a sentence to put the period at. |
07-25-2004, 09:49 AM | #18 |
CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered"
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may I belabor the obvious ?
as the far greater amount of 'knowledge' to be utilized has already been written one place or another, why not expend some effort to overhaul the Linkage section ? is this section not to serve as the underlying reference base ? it is much easier to pull a draft together with the relevant references before you and this is something that any interested individual can do: create topical lists of links with a 2 sentence description of what the resource is/contains pH could pass the lists, by topic, to several involved with that topic to vet and assess the value, finally for accuracy/correctness |
07-25-2004, 10:30 AM | #19 |
Cooling Savant
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Unfortunately the information that is out there is often hidden among piles of useless drivel or in terms which would be difficult for the layman to understand - this is the problem with referring people to procooling threads for example - you have to sift through a dozen pages of posts, often with conflicting opinions to gain an understanding (assuming you follow what they are saying, as the conversation often breaks into tangents).
The work for the people helping write the knowledge base is not so much coming up with the information - as you so rightly said it is already out there - it is turning it into a format that someone easily refer to and learn from. That being said it would be a very good idea to creat the topical lists of links with short descriptions that you said, as the sources of any information put in the knowledge base should be properly cited.
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07-25-2004, 12:13 PM | #20 |
Big PlayerMaking Big Money
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That is a good point by Bill. Starting by updating the arrangement of articles in the Linkage section and adding additional references is probably the logical first step
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07-25-2004, 12:24 PM | #21 | |
CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered"
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Quote:
suggest you select a topic, define some sub-headings - and see how that affects the Linkage section on that topic N.B. do define the format desired, i.e. Excel spreadsheet (provide a blank formatted with headers ?) ohhh, just saw your title I'm impressed ! so it was true after all |
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07-25-2004, 01:07 PM | #22 |
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I've been pondering the same idea, for quite some time (including making bigmoney!).
I believe that the first division should seperate beginner, intermediate and advanced texts. Then, the individual components/topics distributed accordingly. If you don't do it, I'll eventually get to it myself. |
07-26-2004, 02:55 AM | #23 | |
Cooling Savant
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Quote:
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