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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 08-12-2005, 12:22 AM   #1
Spot
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Default Sub forum for Radiator Design

I am thinking, we have a sub forums for waterblock design, I suggest that we should have one for raidiator designs and discussion. Much discussion of rads have been made before and the room for further development is still there. With recent launch of Single pass rad by Thermochill and the "Quiet Power" series from Swiftech, there is even more exchange of opinions around.
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Unread 08-12-2005, 06:59 AM   #2
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Not a bad idea. Heat exchanger design under constant developement in automotive industry, maybe able to link a few articles
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Unread 08-14-2005, 06:04 PM   #3
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Dave that would be nice.

How's about some regarding the research into a return to use of copper over aluminum?

As I understand it newer tube designs and fin arrangements combined with brazing instead of soldering are all being looked at. Supposedly from the little I've read on this these new units would be thinner than the old type designs, more compact & lower weight than aluminum yet cool better than aluminum. But would be nice to hear more about this area of research from someone who's involved?

Thanks
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Unread 08-15-2005, 06:45 AM   #4
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^ Going to ask Dan for this info, as I do not have much experience in this field.

I understand Dan has extensive knowledge from he automotive racing days, where due to aerodynamic concerns, any reduction in size is an advantage.
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Unread 08-15-2005, 09:59 PM   #5
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That will be great. The benefits of such knowledge will really help get some people out there going. I think the heat exchange designs in automotive is just the right thing we can take reference from.
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Unread 08-15-2005, 11:53 PM   #6
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Ahhh...its good to be back.

Just from the top of my head...

Radiator designs work on both sides of the equation, namely water and airside.

The problem with our intended application is that we've got fairly limited airflow using computer fans (especially with the noise restrictions) and an even smaller frontal surface area.

Both materials have their benefits and their disadvantages. For instance, in automotive, Alluminum has become the material of choice namely because it is cheaper, and production costs in volume is also lower. It however suffers from the difficult and expensive (replace it rather than repair it) possibility of damage.

Also, the problem with alluminum though is its limited conductivity compared to copper. Which isn't necessarily a problem if you've got enough of it spread out on a wide area like a car but it would be a problem if you have it say in a heater core or a PC radiator.

There's also the issue that the thinnest Alluminum fins are much thicker than that of their cupric counterparts because of its structural nature. In order for it to achieve sufficient strength it needs to be thick enough. Moreover, when you braze alluminum it sheds off a few layers of itself in the brazing process.

This thick fin tends to result in a greater airside pressure drop when placed into a core.

Copper radiators on the other hand employ a less sophisticated manufacturing baking process to alluminum's brazing. But these require more steps and distinctively more precise equipment (in some cases) to manufacture.

Off the bat you've got better conductivity and lower airside pressure drop and the potential for units with smaller footprints. Which doesn't matter as much in the automotive industry.

It loses out to alluminum in terms of cost of material and being far denser than Alluminum it becomes even costlier in terms of weight.

But its easily repairable and more corrosion resistant.

Copper Brazing or Cuprobraze®, is a very expensive technology considering the number of steps it has relative to the much more mature alluminum (nocolok) brazing technology and the equipment required.

Its primary purpose was to gain back ground lost when the automotive radiator industry alluminized back in the 70's.

Its distinct advtanges has all the great attributes of copper but enhances strength, durability, and doing so at lower material costs. The added factor is that its a greener process for the environment.

Cuprobrazed radiators and charged air coolers are targeted for heavy duty applications which have higher pressure/temperature requirements which Alluminum would eventually buckle under. Think huge trailer truck turbo diesels with 200psi and 200C up operating temps.
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Unread 08-16-2005, 05:51 AM   #7
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Sadly you won't find me and Cathar discussing much in the way of ThermoChill radiator designs on open forums anymore thanks to the Chinese and other manufacturers doing the obvious thing and duplicating / swiping our work... I've already seen a Chinese-clone-PA160... so unfortunately at this time, all development discussion is now going on between us by e-mail.
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Unread 08-16-2005, 06:38 AM   #8
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^ Too bad, but what makes you think it was from this forum?

For what I understand from Dan, most Chinese companies do little engineering and as suggested simply "clone" anything they get there hands on?

He has experience this over and over again

What is really bad, is when they break into your data base then email your dealer list with there knock-off product, which recently happened to C-Systems.

Had RCMP on it from what I understand, but have no additional information at this time.

If it is of big concern, maybe we shouldn't discuss openly?
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Unread 08-16-2005, 07:31 AM   #9
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This was the only forum at the time that had the full specs of the rad... and there were only 2 rads in physical existence at the time, both in my hands... but photos had already been published here at procooling of the prototype model...

http://sgoverclockers.com/modules.ph...viewtopic&t=81 - see 3rd post down by Sin22 - it was before the final public launch of the rad, but not before the prototype etc being sorted on here...

End of the day, they're watching all the significant forums, rest assured. But then again... so do we. *shrug*

Note later in that thread the Chinese-Innovatek clone rads make an appearance where they call it a ThermoChill OEM - it isn't.

We also know that our discussions with regards optimising the HE120 series based on findings from PA160 were being closely watched by another radiator manufacturer, in discussions going on both here and at OCAU... hence the decision to move all conversation to e-mail.... but yes, they now have PA160's over there to be able to clone as well as their original one shown at CeBit...

The particular difficulty is when we're approached by Chinese and Taiwanese companies wanting to resell our products. This has happened in the past. They get one order... and that's it. They never order any more... and very soon afterwards, a host of clones suddenly surface... so we're having to turn away dealer applications from such regions purely to minimise the risk.

I know ultimately it's a good thing for the end-user - they get the goods cheaply manufactured en-masse by China at a very affordable price... but for those of us shelling out for the initial work to be done for them to be able to clone it's enough to put a company out of business... unless we consider moving to Chinese production, which involves laying off a large number of staff - not something we feel comfortable doing. Sadly it's a case of UK Economics again and the fact that they're appalling when it comes to labour output vs workforce input vs cost...

Either way it is becoming an increasing risk for a manufacturer to discuss openly details of new products and research... and foolishly expect others not to take note and take advantage of that...

This game puts food on the table, but that's about it now... whereas at one point it at least put food on the table and paid the bills.

I see the Storm is making it's way over there now - doubt it'll be long before that's cloned too at this rate... anyone being innovative in this business is destined to loose out in the long run.

All we can do by keeping discussion private is minimise the damage by ensuring the manufacturer gets to bring the goods out first and the clones appear afterwards... but from open development discussions the clone appears to now surface very early on in the game...

Anyways.... apols for dragging this thread O/T... back to yer radiator discussions...!
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Unread 08-16-2005, 08:41 AM   #10
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"call it a ThermoChill OEM"

What can I say, can't believe they tried to pass on there product as yours!

Just told Dan, he was not surprized in any way
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Unread 08-16-2005, 08:56 AM   #11
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I wonder if there's a place for "confidential" forums - something "by invitation only" and maybe even with actual paper NDAs - maybe even "non-compete" agreements.
Maybe it's already going on - and I just haven't been invited

I'd put forth that there are a number of regular posters here (not necessarily me) who have very good insight into some of these areas and it might actually be to your advantage to include them in the discussion.

Just a thought, of course...
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Unread 08-16-2005, 08:59 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marci
I know ultimately it's a good thing for the end-user - they get the goods cheaply manufactured en-masse by China at a very affordable price...
Well I would argue that point to a degree. Quite often these cheap knock-offs are made to a far lower overall quality and finish because there is no pride and quality control.

The end-users may see what is a cheap bargain that looks somewhat like the real-deal, but they're actually getting inferior goods because these guys don't really understand what they're doing and are not even aware of the little details that gain 10% performance here, and 5% performance there.

So often I see Chinese copies of name-brand goods being sold in various budget shops and the quality is always lacking. This doesn't mean that the Chinese can't make quality goods, but when some plant is just pumping out goods that it doesn't understand all the details as to why it needs to be done a certain way, and also have no quality control being enforced upon them by a contract, then the end consumers ultimately suffer.

They get inferior goods at a cheap price, and the guys who invented it go out of business and the innovation stops, and all the end-users are then left with is a source of inferior goods and no hope of improvement.

This is the innovational malaise that is the result of free-trade that gets passed over in the quest for cheaper prices for the masses. Sadly it seems to be the way of the world. Historically the nations that provided the cheap labour often got wealthy enough as a result of the trade imbalance that over time it sort of balanced itself out. China is a different story though. At 4x the population of the USA, it's going to take a LOT of trade imbalance before China begins to level out on the international scene. One can only hope that the manufacturing industries in the rest of the developed world can survive until that day. It seems unlikely though.
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Unread 08-16-2005, 09:21 AM   #13
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It's an open forum, it's good....and then it's sometimes bad. I believe due respect and acknowledegement must be given to the contributors like in the case of Thermochill to Cathar.

The Innovatek rads are from A Single Chinese Company, own by a China Chinese national (not to be specific). They supply also to "the other" prominent German watercooling company and some other smaller ones around the world. The comment on Sgoverclockers.com on the "Thermochill OEM" was made by me, and for the record, then, I already know what exactly it is, right down to its lack of QC and such & such & such. However, this series of rads, from the Single Chinese Company, has another name, which, in our region, we call it "Thermochill OEM", many who uses this term knows, the original of it and what it's trying to imitate. Coupled with this clarification, I promise I'll not refer it as "Thermochill OEM" again. It has a name, just that it's not popular. From what I understand, this Single Chinese Company is what I see to be a formidable competitor for the 2 other rad company, namely Thermochill and HWlabs. The others have a long way to go.
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Unread 08-16-2005, 09:59 AM   #14
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I am with Cathar.... who pays for innovation?

Developement is NOT cheap!

Sure I can play around with alot of idea's on my own, because Dan has spent millions of dollars on the equipment that allows me to do so, but this is not the case for most people.

On the other hand, I must admit AVT sources alot of components for various projects outside North America, however the company that has contracted us, and has paid for developement, is the one to profit, as it should be.

I guess what I am saying, is taking a product that someone else has paid to develope, and just plan "cloning" it is stealing anyway you look at it.
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Unread 08-16-2005, 10:29 AM   #15
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I think now the question that precedes should be, "exactly WHO is innovating".
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Unread 08-16-2005, 10:42 AM   #16
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Seeing as how my name has suddenly appeared in this thread, along with the site I've recently started, guess I'll throw my 2 cents in.

A sub-forum would be an interesting way to go since there already is one for the wb designers out there, though how much traffic it would receive would be an issue. In a sense, building a waterblock is a lot easier than building a radiator, especially at home.

As for the whole cloning issue. I'm sure that our memories are not so short, or that we are so narrow-minded as to only target the chinese & chinese factories. Cathar ought to remember this, not two years back there were several lively discussions on OCAU with a particular manufacturer on certain series of blocks that had been released. Was he not Australian? (Lets not get into the ethnicity of the owner here). Or some of the other blocks released from many "reputable" watercooling companies.

It has been said that the highest form of flattery comes from imitation. People all over the net, at least informed people, having been lambasting a lot of the cooling companies like Evercool, Thermaltake and anyone else who has tried to enter watercooling and has failed miserably. Looking at Gigabyte's latest kit, it doesnt take a genius to notice its hugely similar to a Swiftech kit, and that obviously someone over there has started to notice this. In a sense, our overt criticiscm of their products has brought the current situation about too.

The whole open discussion concept was good whilst it lasted but was doomed once w/cing became more mainstream. Thats because it used to be a niche market in which only tech-heads ventured and really understood. Now, everyone wants a piece of the pie and there is money to be made, as such the once strong moral values and codes of conduct that upheld the little bit of integrity of the designers and those who frequented such forums is long gone, with everyone trying to make a quick buck.

Though personnaly, I dont feel all is lost. I may be a romantic, but still, things will change as they always do.

Do take care though and a big hello to some whom I've not spoken to in some time
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Unread 08-16-2005, 11:39 AM   #17
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Quote:
I wonder if there's a place for "confidential" forums - something "by invitation only" and maybe even with actual paper NDAs - maybe even "non-compete" agreements.
Maybe it's already going on - and I just haven't been invited
You n' me both fella! But yes, that idea popped into my head this morning as I typed my post... ThermoChill originally started out as a relationship of trust & finances between 3x UK Companies... but as time went on only one of those companies managed to survived. A lot of the UK stuff is handled co-operatively... for instance, we dish DangerDen products out to the smaller OnlineStores, and other imported goods that they simply can't afford to bring in and be able to resell competitively. Often it's a group order effectively between 3 or 4 stores all joining with us so that we all get the bulk discount... everyone then sells at a relatively fixed pricing structure so that we don't put each other out of pocket.

Quote:
As for the whole cloning issue. I'm sure that our memories are not so short, or that we are so narrow-minded as to only target the chinese & chinese factories.
My apologies - I'm only targetting the Chinese sector here as that's the sector having the most direct impact on radiator sales and production elsewhere at the moment... and the only sector affecting me directly. In this case just the convenient example to demonstrate a point...

Quote:
Well I would argue that point to a degree. Quite often these cheap knock-offs are made to a far lower overall quality and finish because there is no pride and quality control.
True true, but I'm referring more to the market sector that cares about cost and cost alone... y'know - that group of customers we both share similar views of but yes, I agree on that point for sure
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Unread 08-16-2005, 11:43 AM   #18
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Whilst you're here and in the know Spot, do you have access to any technical testing data/results for these "OEM" rads?? None of the folks selling them can provide the info... and tend to skirt round the issue rapidly...
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Unread 08-16-2005, 09:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marci
Whilst you're here and in the know Spot, do you have access to any technical testing data/results for these "OEM" rads?? None of the folks selling them can provide the info... and tend to skirt round the issue rapidly...
There's an obvious reason why the folks out there cannot provide what you want. But I do have information, but it's not at my liberty to discuss in the open forums.
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Unread 08-16-2005, 09:28 PM   #20
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Quote:
Well I would argue that point to a degree. Quite often these cheap knock-offs are made to a far lower overall quality and finish because there is no pride and quality control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marci
True true, but I'm referring more to the market sector that cares about cost and cost alone... y'know - that group of customers we both share similar views of but yes, I agree on that point for sure
If you've seen what I've seen at Taiwan Recently, I wouldn't be too quick to conclude on that. And I can safely say that it's of the highest quality that I've seen so far, makes of east and west included.
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Unread 08-17-2005, 12:02 AM   #21
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I think a radiator design sub-forum would be good .

Keep in mind that it will be filled with posts just like those in the other sub-forums. It doesn't have to be a center of collaboration for the design of the next great radiator by the Corporals and would-be's of Industry . DIY folks can still share and learn. Most of the ideas and stuff tossed around would likely be about mounting, modding, and ducting existing units, and DIY passive setups.

Should anything of interest to the Corporals of Industry (or the Chinese for that matter ) occur, a simple PM could lead to an email exchange and folks could play their cards as close as they wanted.
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Unread 08-17-2005, 01:04 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar

They get inferior goods at a cheap price, and the guys who invented it go out of business and the innovation stops, and all the end-users are then left with is a source of inferior goods and no hope of improvement.

This is the innovational malaise that is the result of free-trade that gets passed over in the quest for cheaper prices for the masses. Sadly it seems to be the way of the world. Historically the nations that provided the cheap labour often got wealthy enough as a result of the trade imbalance that over time it sort of balanced itself out. China is a different story though. At 4x the population of the USA, it's going to take a LOT of trade imbalance before China begins to level out on the international scene. One can only hope that the manufacturing industries in the rest of the developed world can survive until that day. It seems unlikely though.
You mean inferior like that nice HP laptop you can get for $799

The problem is not with free trade. The problem is that many in this business have no idea how to properly structure a 21st Century Company or what is required strategically to win this game given the 21st Century’s economic landscape.

Spot

A radiator forum is a good idea but given the maturing of our industry I think it will wither on the vine. Few in the real know are going to discuss their ideas openly now.
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Unread 08-17-2005, 01:06 AM   #23
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I normally try to stick to what I love doing while on the forums and keep my work from HWLabs and such interests away.

But yeah it is true, the Black Ice®, being the most abused and unflaterringly immitated PC Rad out there, it does suck so bad that there's only so much you can do against the Chinese.

It is difficult to price them out because their currency is way undervalued as its been known that they can sell their wares at below cost.

Most new users don't pay that much attention to quality or simply do not see the qualitative differences between rads and how they are designed. And I sometimes don't mind immitations as much as long as they improve on something (which they rarely do) rather than just copy the look and paint over all the flaws.

Then again one can wait for a vendor to infringe on a patent in a market that regards intellectual property as a basis of market protection.

It forces creativity and innovation.

Market forces...sigh.

But going back on topic, there's only so much one can contribute to heat exchanger technology given its practically at its limits.

The variables end up coming down to material and production costs once it becomes truly commodified.
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Unread 08-17-2005, 02:49 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothar5150
You mean inferior like that nice HP laptop you can get for $799
I believe I said generally inferior unless contractually obligated to hold to a certain level of quality assurance.

No, I really am sure I said that. You didn't quote that bit though, because you were too busy trying to be smart, but failing.

Then again, how could we expect anything more from someone who's so imaginative that their entire radiator line-up and marketing campaign is based around openly admitting and promoting that their radiators are dead-set copies of products of another successful radiator producer. If being an unimaginative uninnovative copier of successful products is what it takes to remain successful in the 21st century, then I for one openly weep for the future.

Last edited by Cathar; 08-17-2005 at 03:40 AM.
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Unread 08-17-2005, 09:19 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
If being an unimaginative uninnovative copier of successful products is what it takes to remain successful in the 21st century, then I for one openly weep for the future.
In the '50 and early '60's this was the situation with Japanese manufactured goods (excepting ceramics which I think most folks at the time simply weren't aware of).
"Made in Japan" meant "junk". The phrase even got used for stuff that wasn't made in Japan, but was shoddily made.
Then their manufacturing quality got a lot better - and they started to innovate. The first chain-driven OHC motor I ever saw was a Honda. There was a big innovation in the approach to manufacturing materials: build with easy-to-machine materials, surface treat for use after machining (if necessary).

It's still a useful technique, all-be-it less than wonderful when you wear through the surface treatment on a brake rotor - but remember that the US automobiles of the time were designed to be used like dixie cups - use 'em for a couple of years and toss 'em.
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