How can you not support democracy?

Lothar5150 · 02-22-2005, 05:33 PM

I don’t know how you could live in a democracy and be against the promotion of democracy. I guess as long as they have their freedom, who cares about all “those” people. Anyone care to comment.

Quote:

Many Canadians don't think U.S. should promote democracy: poll

Canadian Press

February 22, 2005

WASHINGTON (AP) - More than three-quarters of Canadians said they didn't think the United States should try to promote the creation of democratic governments in other countries, according to an Associated Press-Ipsos poll.

U.S. President George W. Bush said in his January inaugural address that the United States would work to end tyranny and promote democracy around the world. But only 22 per cent of Canadians polled thought that would be an appropriate role for the United States.

MadHacker · 02-22-2005, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

I don’t know how you could live in a democracy and be against the promotion of democracy. I guess as long as they have their freedom, who cares about all “those” people. Anyone care to comment.

big discussion here
I see some major flamming happening

might as well start.
being a Canadian...
I believe in democracy...
just don't beleive in how the American government manipulates the world to force democracy...
my 2¢

Jason_The_Angry · 02-22-2005, 06:22 PM

A question, does everyone want or need democracy in their government? Is the American style of democracy the best way? Are we, as Americans qualified to judge? Hmm, i think that a nation's culture and economy determines many of these answers. In theory, a government chosen by the people works very well. But there is no perfect system.

jaydee · 02-22-2005, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadHacker

big discussion here
I see some major flamming happening

might as well start.
being a Canadian...
I believe in democracy...
just don't beleive in how the American government manipulates the world to force democracy...
my 2¢

Can't make a post like that with no basis behind it and think anyone is going to listen. Give us some examples of how the US government manipulates to get other countries into a democracy. And if you do have any decent examples let's see some reasoning that the manipulations downsides out weigh the upsides of the country being democratic as opposed to what ever state it is in now.

Canada likes to sit on the side lines and be arm chair generals. If Canadians want any credibility then they should get off their ass and do their part to make the world a better place. Lead by example? If you got a better way let's hear it. Sitting around bitching how everyone else does things doesn't get anything accomplished.

superart · 02-22-2005, 06:40 PM

PAH!! to you and your "democracy", lothar.

There is no need for democracy in the workers paradise that is Canada. Canada, where everyone recieves according to his need, and contributes according to his ability. THREE CHEERES FOR COMRAD CANADA!!!!!!!111!!!111!!!!!!!

9mmCensor · 02-22-2005, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

I don’t know how you could live in a democracy and be against the promotion of democracy. I guess as long as they have their freedom, who cares about all “those” people. Anyone care to comment.

First off people have the ability to choose to form a democracy if they want to. It may cost them some blood, but it will happen if enough people belive in it.
Whats the problem? Democracy, in its current Westernized form, isn't always the best thing for everyone. If its wrong to go push a religion on someone, its just as wrong to push a political system on one.

Also, the USA has an abismal record for "helping nations for democracies".

The US Governments interest in helping new democracies form is hegmonic.

BillA · 02-22-2005, 07:14 PM

perhaps it is the recurring influx of a selected type from the US that leads them to said conclusion(s)
- if they flee here they gonna be any more generous as citizens up there ?

9mmCensor · 02-22-2005, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Canada likes to sit on the side lines and be arm chair generals. If Canadians want any credibility then they should get off their ass and do their part to make the world a better place. Lead by example? If you got a better way let's hear it. Sitting around bitching how everyone else does things doesn't get anything accomplished.

Sit on the sidelines, eh?

Canada plays an VERY active role in the international community to make the world a better place. Canada is a small (population wise nation) with a relitively small armed forces (a sacrafice we make to enjoy things like healthcare) so their contributions may not be as large as some nations but they are still felt, esp. in Peacekeeping where Canada is a leader. Mind you Peacekeeping missions dont normally get the attention that full fludged wars do.

MadHacker · 02-22-2005, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Can't make a post like that with no basis behind it and think anyone is going to listen. Give us some examples of how the US government manipulates to get other countries into a democracy. And if you do have any decent examples let's see some reasoning that the manipulations downsides out weigh the upsides of the country being democratic as opposed to what ever state it is in now.

Canada likes to sit on the side lines and be arm chair generals. If Canadians want any credibility then they should get off their ass and do their part to make the world a better place. Lead by example? If you got a better way let's hear it. Sitting around bitching how everyone else does things doesn't get anything accomplished.

That is exactly what I’m talking about....
Canada sits on the side lines... it is respect for other countries opinions and culture...
You don't C anyone trying to bomb us...
Lead by example...
How about world wide peace... are you going to get that with guns?
It’s all about attitude...

superart · 02-22-2005, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadHacker

How about world wide peace... are you going to get that with guns?
It’s all about attitude...

name one thing more peacefull than dead people.

Jag · 02-22-2005, 08:02 PM

Sorry for butting in (i am not Canadian), but it seems that Lothar with the way he presented his question, already is showing some answers that can account for this results.
There's a feeling by the American people that other nations don't understand their effort. So, they react like you're on opposite sides and make this issue totally radical.

Democracy stands for a block of concepts (some with moral content), and not all those values are in the same ground - some can be more relativized than others and also subject to debate.

Nevertheless, and seeing that the feeling the Canadians expressed by this poll isn't unique (other countries have the same idea), it would be useful to debate what kind of "democracy" the U.S implement, and how effective it has been.
It all revolves around the U.S. way of "promoting democracy".
Nowadays everyone is turning their attentions to the Middle East, but why not Africa as well (a Continent far richer than the Middle East and allways in turmoil).

9mmCensor · 02-22-2005, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superart

name one thing more peacefull than dead people.

A field of children from all over the world playing together all of whom not rasicm, or predjudice or hate.

jaydee · 02-22-2005, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadHacker

That is exactly what I’m talking about....
Canada sits on the side lines... it is respect for other countries opinions and culture...
You don't C anyone trying to bomb us...
Lead by example...
How about world wide peace... are you going to get that with guns?
It’s all about attitude...

Your not going to get world peace sitting on the sidelines waiting for a North Korea, Iraq, or Syria style of country to build capability to wipe you out either. Their idea of world peace is to eliminate anyone that doesn't think their way. That would include Canadians when the time came. Canadians wouldn't feel the same way if Canada was in the middle of the middle east now would they? If it wasn't for the USA and the way we do things YOU wouldn't be in a position to sit on the sidelines and let everyone else do the work and take the risks.

9mmCensor · 02-22-2005, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee116

Your not going to get world peace sitting on the sidelines waiting for a North Korea, Iraq, or Syria style of country to build capability to wipe you out either. Their idea of world peace is to eliminate anyone that doesn't think their way. That would include Canadians when the time came. Canadians wouldn't feel the same way if Canada was in the middle of the middle east now would they? If it wasn't for the USA and the way we do things YOU wouldn't be in a position to sit on the sidelines and let everyone else do the work and take the risks.

You dont make friends invading people either.

And while you claim they want to "eliminate anyone that doesn't think their way" thats what the united states is doing!

Think what is the underlying reason for people to hate the USA? Is it because they are envyous of your Cadillacs? Or because the USA has spead hate and misery upon many people. Or is it arrogance and ignorance? Or are they mad that Friends was ended?

MadHacker · 02-22-2005, 09:02 PM

ok how about some of the things USA has supported in trying to obtain a democratic country..
Sudam Hussein put in power by the CIA.
Duarte a dictator put in to power in 1982 in Nicorauga.
Castro was put into power in cuba. they still live in poverty there due to USA no trade embargo.
ohh but that was a long time ago...
something more recent.
how about the current fight for democracy in Iraq... or is it more the fight for Oil?

Cranky · 02-22-2005, 09:48 PM

its pretty funny to me how the U.S really wants to dominate the world and the thinking and actions of its own people. if this country is a "true" democracy, then why do we still have the arcahic institute know as the Electoral College? The "war" in Iraq to me is a unfinished personal vendetta by the father that now the son is trying to fufil. Husain isnt the first to be put in power by our goverment anyway. anyone remember Vietnam? that was our fuxup with setting up a goverment as well....

Etacovda · 02-22-2005, 09:53 PM

If you don't see the irony of forcing democracy on people, you need your head examined.

Cranky · 02-22-2005, 09:56 PM

^^^^ yah next thing u'll know Bush will try to turn em christian as well......

peepingdan · 02-22-2005, 10:16 PM

Democracy is a great idea, but it only exists in the world of ideals. True democracy is impossible. So then, what are we enforcing? Our own imperfect system led by big companies and profits. New oil pipelines in liberated Afghanistan, billion dollar deals in Iraq with Saddam Hussein until he didn't play nice. The dogmatists in our government have settled on the words "Democracy" and "Freedom" and they can't even stick to them themselves.

Lothar5150 · 02-22-2005, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadHacker

ok how about some of the things USA has supported in trying to obtain a democratic country..
Sudam Hussein put in power by the CIA.
Duarte a dictator put in to power in 1982 in Nicorauga.
Castro was put into power in cuba. they still live in poverty there due to USA no trade embargo.
ohh but that was a long time ago...
something more recent.
how about the current fight for democracy in Iraq... or is it more the fight for Oil?

Are you kidding...?
Saddam grabbed power via the Ba'ath party do your home work, the CIA had nothing to do with his rise to power. AK-47…think about it.

Nicaragua is a democracy today because of US pressure and intervention in Honduras and El Salvador... Oh and they are democracies as well.

Cuba...well I'm half Cuban American. Cuba is poor because of Castro not because we put an embargo on the Island. Hell our embargo doesn't bar Canada or any other nation from trading with that dictator...in fact you do. Castro was a vassal dictator of the Soviet Union and now that meal ticket is gone. I guess this proves that Communism is a horseshit economic theory.

Iraq...I'm not going to dignify that with an answer, but IMO thanks for sending the ballots and ink to Iraq.

9mmCensor
Here is a list of countries that are now democratic as a result of US direct military action or diplomatic pressure.

France
Belgium
Norway
Denmark
Sweden
Germany
Austria
Luxemburg
Italy
Greece
South Africa
Venezuela
El Salvador
Honduras
Nicaragua
Chile
Iraq
Afghanistan
Poland
Japan
Philippines
South Korea
Taiwan

Lothar5150 · 02-22-2005, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peepingdan

Democracy is a great idea, but it only exists in the world of ideals. True democracy is impossible. So then, what are we enforcing? Our own imperfect system led by big companies and profits. New oil pipelines in liberated Afghanistan, billion dollar deals in Iraq with Saddam Hussein until he didn't play nice. The dogmatists in our government have settled on the words "Democracy" and "Freedom" and they can't even stick to them themselves.

Los Gatos....where we find the unholy fusion of hippie ideals and conspicuous wealth

Ahhh but the ladies were hot...have a beer at the Blackwatch for me

bigben2k · 02-22-2005, 11:01 PM

Being Canadian, I have to side with the polls.

I've lived within the US for almost 5 years now, and the major issue I see is that this system, called "democratic" is not democratic to the full extent of what it ought to be.

Should I explain?

Ok. Democratic, to me, means that the people are involved in the decision process (but yeah, yeah, the leaders sometimes take decisions against popular opinion, for the sake of the people, blah, blah, blah...).

The problem is that not enough people here are involved in the democratic process, and some of those that are, have twisted views on things (i.e. voting for a party because it's a familiy tradition). The other objection I have, which Canada has always addressed, is how corporations are involved; it's really horrible here in the USA. I can't believe the huge sums of money that corporations pump into the electoral process!!! To me, it's reminescent of palm greasing of some middle-eastern countries government officials, to get something done.

I think that the USA ought to concentrate on fixing its own problems; education, wage disparity, economy, industries, jobs, etc... before it becomes a problem that gets out of hand. It seems that only people outside the USA can see this, for some obscure reason. :shrug:

DryFire · 02-23-2005, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigben2k

I think that the USA ought to concentrate on fixing its own problems; education, wage disparity, economy, industries, jobs, etc... before it becomes a problem that gets out of hand. It seems that only people outside the USA can see this, for some obscure reason. :shrug:

Like living in LA, you can only see the smog from the outside.

Fixing the country is great and all but the idea is that if there are too moany other countries that are poor they will attack.

I think the united states shoudl stop giving turkey money and stop protecting isreal (esp. whilst they do exactly what we tell them not to).

However sometimes you need to step in and stop things. Like the rowandan genocide. Or perhpas the united states could force syria out of lebanon (Being lebanese I may be a bit biased).

but if you think about it if someone took over your country and said we're gonna give you a new gov. cause yours sucks you probably would not be too happy.

Incoherent · 02-23-2005, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Here is a list of countries that are now democratic as a result of US direct military action or diplomatic pressure.

...
Sweden
...

...
Philippines
...

Sweden?

Elaborate on that and explain in the same paragraph why Finland and Switzerland are not on the list.

Speaking as a citizen of New Zealand where I distinctly remember the US supported Marcos regime being ousted by people power in the Phillipines. That particular case did not appear to me to be a sparkling example of US intervention on the side of democracy.

9mmCensor · 02-23-2005, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

9mmCensor
Here is a list of countries that are now democratic as a result of US direct military action or diplomatic pressure.

France
Belgium
Norway
Denmark
Sweden
Germany - was democratic
Austria
Luxemburg
Italy
Greece
Poland
Japan - (only after you nuked them)
Philippines
South Korea
Taiwan
World War 2 "Liberations"; were
A) began with the USA and other nations creating the need for liberation
B) and was not solely the USA.

South Africa - Global effort to bring about democracy.
Iraq - Yet to be determined weather their will be a democracy there or not.
Afghanistan - Another cause the problem, then barely attempt to recitfy it. The war in afganistan was a joke.

My South American history is lacking. Cant really speak about the south american nations.

02-22-2005, 06:22 PM	#3
Jason_The_Angry Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: D.C. Posts: 55	A question, does everyone want or need democracy in their government? Is the American style of democracy the best way? Are we, as Americans qualified to judge? Hmm, i think that a nation's culture and economy determines many of these answers. In theory, a government chosen by the people works very well. But there is no perfect system. __________________ "You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

02-22-2005, 06:40 PM	#5
superart Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: FL Posts: 787	PAH!! to you and your "democracy", lothar. There is no need for democracy in the workers paradise that is Canada. Canada, where everyone recieves according to his need, and contributes according to his ability. THREE CHEERES FOR COMRAD CANADA!!!!!!!111!!!111!!!!!!! __________________ When you do things right, people won't be sure youv'e done anything at all. Looking to buy/trade for used Deep Fryer and Vacume Pack Sealer.

02-22-2005, 09:02 PM	#15
MadHacker Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Okotoks, A.B. Canada Posts: 726	ok how about some of the things USA has supported in trying to obtain a democratic country.. Sudam Hussein put in power by the CIA. Duarte a dictator put in to power in 1982 in Nicorauga. Castro was put into power in cuba. they still live in poverty there due to USA no trade embargo. ohh but that was a long time ago... something more recent. how about the current fight for democracy in Iraq... or is it more the fight for Oil? __________________ "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" - (Einstein)

02-22-2005, 09:53 PM	#17
Etacovda Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dunedin NZ Posts: 735	If you don't see the irony of forcing democracy on people, you need your head examined. __________________ Hypocritical Signature I tried to delete: Procooling: where scientific principles are ignored because big corporations are immune to mistakes and oversights.

02-22-2005, 11:01 PM	#22
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Being Canadian, I have to side with the polls. I've lived within the US for almost 5 years now, and the major issue I see is that this system, called "democratic" is not democratic to the full extent of what it ought to be. Should I explain? Ok. Democratic, to me, means that the people are involved in the decision process (but yeah, yeah, the leaders sometimes take decisions against popular opinion, for the sake of the people, blah, blah, blah...). The problem is that not enough people here are involved in the democratic process, and some of those that are, have twisted views on things (i.e. voting for a party because it's a familiy tradition). The other objection I have, which Canada has always addressed, is how corporations are involved; it's really horrible here in the USA. I can't believe the huge sums of money that corporations pump into the electoral process!!! To me, it's reminescent of palm greasing of some middle-eastern countries government officials, to get something done. I think that the USA ought to concentrate on fixing its own problems; education, wage disparity, economy, industries, jobs, etc... before it becomes a problem that gets out of hand. It seems that only people outside the USA can see this, for some obscure reason. :shrug: __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-22-2005, 07:14 PM	#7
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	perhaps it is the recurring influx of a selected type from the US that leads them to said conclusion(s) - if they flee here they gonna be any more generous as citizens up there ?

02-22-2005, 08:02 PM	#11
Jag Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 179	Sorry for butting in (i am not Canadian), but it seems that Lothar with the way he presented his question, already is showing some answers that can account for this results. There's a feeling by the American people that other nations don't understand their effort. So, they react like you're on opposite sides and make this issue totally radical. Democracy stands for a block of concepts (some with moral content), and not all those values are in the same ground - some can be more relativized than others and also subject to debate. Nevertheless, and seeing that the feeling the Canadians expressed by this poll isn't unique (other countries have the same idea), it would be useful to debate what kind of "democracy" the U.S implement, and how effective it has been. It all revolves around the U.S. way of "promoting democracy". Nowadays everyone is turning their attentions to the Middle East, but why not Africa as well (a Continent far richer than the Middle East and allways in turmoil).

02-22-2005, 09:48 PM	#16
Cranky Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: texas Posts: 92	its pretty funny to me how the U.S really wants to dominate the world and the thinking and actions of its own people. if this country is a "true" democracy, then why do we still have the arcahic institute know as the Electoral College? The "war" in Iraq to me is a unfinished personal vendetta by the father that now the son is trying to fufil. Husain isnt the first to be put in power by our goverment anyway. anyone remember Vietnam? that was our fuxup with setting up a goverment as well....

02-22-2005, 09:56 PM	#18
Cranky Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: texas Posts: 92	^^^^ yah next thing u'll know Bush will try to turn em christian as well......

02-22-2005, 10:16 PM	#19
peepingdan Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Los Gatos, California Posts: 58	Democracy is a great idea, but it only exists in the world of ideals. True democracy is impossible. So then, what are we enforcing? Our own imperfect system led by big companies and profits. New oil pipelines in liberated Afghanistan, billion dollar deals in Iraq with Saddam Hussein until he didn't play nice. The dogmatists in our government have settled on the words "Democracy" and "Freedom" and they can't even stick to them themselves.

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