Bush or Kerry: slam the US! - Page 6

Kobuchi · 10-14-2004, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unregistered

a rather nice TA appraisal of the individual/governmental relationship

It's easy where I can talk about "them" Americans.

Lothar5150 · 10-14-2004, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Most Americans will vote as a sort of chore imposed on them by their superiors. They'd feel ashamed not to vote. They'll naturally vote for the least intellectually challenging candidate. And so on.

I don’t agree with this last bit. The sad fact is that only half of Americans show up to vote in general elections and a third show up for mid-term elections. The one who vote do care about the political system and feel they have a stake in it

Kobuchi · 10-14-2004, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

only half of Americans show up to vote

Right. I meant most of all Americans appear to regard politics as alien to themselves. They are not equal to the politicians, and they, the American people, don't contain the government.

The libertarian toolset irks me because it's so well equipped to handle government as a property of the people. Do machines own it? Or God? Yet libertarians talk of government like it's another person. They don't participate and then conclude, "Well, I'm raising my taxes this year." Not even a "we". They pout or even hint at rebellion. That flies against the spirit of democracy, and it spells perpetual marginalisation too.

bigben2k · 10-14-2004, 04:11 PM

Wow, I knew I was opening a can of worms here! Are any of our European readers laughing their heads off yet?

One point that caught my attention was a reference to Korea not being able to nuke the US: that may be true, but it is quite capable of hitting other countries into which the US has interest, and plus, any other country would not take too well to an American interference in this matter, simply for that threat. Iraq all over again... Let the UN take care of the problem: it's time for the US to step off this crazy ride, and patiently participate in a global coalition.

That's the purpose of the U.N., no?

pHaestus · 10-14-2004, 04:15 PM

What more can I do as a citizen other than consistently vote Libertarian and point out the folly in the current course of govt? Also be aware that the US isn't a true democracy, it is a representative democracy. If you strongly disagree with the beliefs of one of the 2 major candidates then you by and large don't get to really participate other than by talking.

The truth is the libertarian party has too many vocal fringe people to ever be a major force in the US. But if they toned down the rhetoric on things like doing away with national parks and the Fed and just espoused the basics of conservatism then I think they'd easily pull 15-20% of the popular vote in presidential elections and also would win lots of state govt positions. Even with the fringe status, there are more libertarians in public office in the US than all other 3rd parties combined. FWIW I'd have to reevaluate my libertarian affiliation if they ever became too popular because they'd undoubtedly remove all funding from DoE facilities where I do my work and probably get rid of funding sources like the NSF. It's easier to be libertarian when it isn't directly hurting my career

Lothar5150 · 10-14-2004, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Right. I meant most of all Americans appear to regard politics as alien to themselves. They are not equal to the politicians, and they, the American people, don't contain the government.

The libertarian toolset irks me because it's so well equipped to handle government as a property of the people. Do machines own it? Or God? Yet libertarians talk of government like it's another person. They don't participate and then conclude, "Well, I'm raising my taxes this year." Not even a "we". They pout or even hint at rebellion. That flies against the spirit of democracy, and it spells perpetual marginalisation too.

Ok I can see where you are coming from...I am an advocate of service for this very reason. I don't mean a draft or anything ridiculous like that. However, I think everyone should serve this country in some way for a few years. I think it produces better citizens, who feel a sense of ownership in their country…True Patriots. John McCain touched on this when he ran in the 2000 primary.

Lothar5150 · 10-14-2004, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pHaestus

What more can I do as a citizen other than consistently vote Libertarian and point out the folly in the current course of govt?

Serve your country in some way.

Torin · 10-14-2004, 05:26 PM

Not going to comment on the recent string of posts, but to answer the original question... I would vote Kerry because he's got the best chance of getting Bush out of office, and a vote for anyone else might as well be a vote for Bush in my opinion.

I don't necessarily think taking Saddam out of power was a bad idea, but Bush went about it in the absolutely wrong way, and the results have been tragic, and continue to get more tragic every day. 4 more soldiers were killed today, and I honestly doubt the killing will ever stop.

I'm definitely no humanist, and I would say I am insensitive.. but I think we should have left Saddam in power until the world was willing to unite to take him out of power, rather than the U.S. playing the role of Global Police Force. I'd rather the Iraqis kill each other than kill our soldiers. And force feeding them democracy has only made the situation there worse. Yeah, let's give them another reason to want to kill us, great idea.

Lothar5150 · 10-14-2004, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torin

Not going to comment on the recent string of posts, but to answer the original question... I would vote Kerry because he's got the best chance of getting Bush out of office, and a vote for anyone else might as well be a vote for Bush in my opinion.

I don't necessarily think taking Saddam out of power was a bad idea, but Bush went about it in the absolutely wrong way, and the results have been tragic, and continue to get more tragic every day. 4 more soldiers were killed today, and I honestly doubt the killing will ever stop.

I'm definitely no humanist, and I would say I am insensitive.. but I think we should have left Saddam in power until the world was willing to unite to take him out of power, rather than the U.S. playing the role of Global Police Force. I'd rather the Iraqis kill each other than kill our soldiers. And force feeding them democracy has only made the situation there worse. Yeah, let's give them another reason to want to kill us, great idea.

Every death is a tragedy, but from a professional standpoint, these casualty levels are tactically and operationally insignificant. Strategically they are significant because this whole shooting match will won or loss based on the will of people back home...think about that... The people who suicide bomb our troops; want you to react the way you are reacting right now.

Don't think for a minute that things are as bad as the news makes them out to be. Keep this in perspective and look at WW2, Korea and Vietnam US losses. Look at the overall trend.
World War 2 1940-1945 291,557
Korean War 1950-1953 33,686
Vietnam War 1964-1975 47,410
Gulf War 1990-1991 148
OIF 2003- SEP 14 2004 768 *note that 25% of deaths reported by the news are NON-Combat deaths

The fact is that Afghanistan had national elections...was it force feed? If so, they seem to have liked it. Iraq will turn out the same way.

bigben2k · 10-14-2004, 06:38 PM

Thank you Torin!!!! I think your view reflects that of a smart citizen, wether they have the view already, or they're coming to it now.

Torin · 10-14-2004, 06:41 PM

Well about Afghanistan, I assume you heard of the population trying to cheat the process, vote multiple times, and 14/16 of the people who could be elected dropping out and boycotting the process? Yeah, that one worked out real good.

The presence of Islamic extremists in Afghanistan is either significantly less than Iraq, or they act out a lot less. Well, that, and we didn't occupy Afghanistan for a year+. For those reasons alone, I don't think it will turn out the same in Iraq at all. I would be surprised to see a democratic election come to completition in Iraq, and would be even more surprised to see it survive a year. Religious extremism isn't going to go away over night, nor will it go away because a democracy has taken over. If anything, I believe a democratic government will just spur the extremists on even more, causing much of the same violence even after we leave. Eventually it will cause a breakdown, and they'll return more or less to how they are now, but fortunately for us, we won't be getting killed in the process.

And yes, I'm sure they want me to think like I am, and I will fully admit it is working. I've never once agreed with the idea of being an International Police Force, and their actions are reinforcing my beliefs. Reforming Iraq is not a totally lost cause in and of itself, but I'm personally offended that my country has to be responsible for the brunt of the work. That of course, is the fault of GWB. I believe that any international effort on the scale of reconstructing Iraq should be taken on by something along the lines of the UN, not by the US and whatever small contributions we can get from the rest of the world. GWB has flown in the face of foreign policy, and changed the way the world looks at the USA, probably forever. I disagree with how this has gone down, even if casualties are "tactically and operationally insignificant". Is the 200+ billion he has spent on the war, also insignificant?

I resent that my tax payer dollars go to that, and I resent that our country is made to look the fool in the eyes of the world, all for a folly of an excuse like "They've got WMD, we've got to go get them."

BillA · 10-14-2004, 06:48 PM

Ben and Torin

all you are saying is that the greater number of deaths of other citizens is less important to you than than the (far) fewer deaths of your citizens

practical ? pragmatic ? perhaps
principled ? humanistic ? no, you guys are cynics hiding behind false premises

a shame we cannot permit those who would tolerate brutal dictatorships to live and raise their family in that environment

but you have it good, so screw those born into a miserable fate
liberals eh ?
make me wanna puke

your "tax payer dollars", yup - you said it all right there

Torin · 10-14-2004, 06:56 PM

Yes, in the context of a situation like this, one I feel we do not belong in, the greater number of their deaths are less important than the far fewer deaths of ours. Like I said, I'm no humanist, and I'm not very sensitive. If the entirity of the UN was represented with troops in Iraq, and the far fewer deaths were distributed, and the economic burden distributed, then I would say that would be 100 times better than it is now. As it stands, that isnt' the case, we are bearing the brunt of the military and economic burden, and as my tax dollars pay for it, I hold resentment.

Like I said, like you said, I am no humanist. People on an average level are too stupid, and too crazy for me to care enough about our species as to call myself a humanist. Take religion for example, if people on an average level had 100% more common sense and thought for themselves 100% more, religion wouldn't be as popular as it is. However, the numbers speak for themselves, and as such prove the world is full of idiots.

Now, before you go on ranting about dictatorships, I didn't say removing Saddam from power was a bad idea, I said we went about it all the wrong way, and because of that we're in the mess we are now.

I didn't say screw them either, but I don't pay 18% of every paycheck to go towards retarded foreign policy and wasting lives in the name of saving those born to a miserable fate. Why don't I hear you saying it makes you want to puke how the US is doing 75% of everything in Iraq, and the rest of the world could more or less be saying "screw those born into a miserable fate"?

Why is Iraq such a damn noble cause, and everyone else in the world being born into a miserable fate doesn't get a 100th of the attention, money, or military policing? Why is Iraq so damn special?

Quote:

Originally Posted by unregistered

your "tax payer dollars", yup - you said it all right there

I said what all right there? That I work damn hard for the money I make, and accept that the government gets a portion of it, and believe they should be halfway reasonable in how they spend it? If caring for how my contribution to the government is spent is saying anything about me, I don't know how that can be seen as wrong. I want proper representation for the money I contribute, not excuses and hindsight reasons for starting wars.

BillA · 10-14-2004, 07:08 PM

as a matter of principle we should eliminate all repressive regimes
the UN is a conspiracy of tyrants, this is why the UN is worthless and will never have any 'moral' justification

as a child watching the Hungarian Revolution I asked why we, the champions of liberty, were not helping them ?
then I came to understand the dishonesty of all governments, the eternal accommodators to remain in power

go buy a new car, Torin
you too Ben
take a whirl on the backs of those in the oil producing countries living in starvation
that's not your problem

psychofunk · 10-14-2004, 07:08 PM

Man I just don't get it. When did wanting to help others become a bad thing? Yes, as I am sure you already guessed, I am a liberal (not exactly as you described though pH) I understand that some of our current systems are a drain in their current form, but rather than cut off all help and crawl into a corner petting our "precious" why not make changes to improve our systems. People need help and that is a reality. All is not equal here and all do not have the same opportunities.

Just as a small example here in LA, we have schools in South Central that have 1 book to every 2 students and then you have schools in the Pallisades with new books every couple of years and at least 1 per student with extras just in case. Then when a community trys to come together we are not allowed to donate books instead we have to give the money to the district who determines where the money is to go. Which if they were doing that job right in the first place we would'nt be faced with this problem. Yeah......I got your equal hangin....

Look I know that is not the nicest thing to say but when did it get so that idealism and reality could not coexist. And how is it that a military man can not be idealistic. You risk your life for idealism, to help someone, your country who is your family and who are your neighbors, your friends and even complete strangers. You are idealism at it's best because you are idealism in action. F U C K that, I spent the first 20 some odd of my life not giving a mad F U C K about anything and I will not be part of that anymore.

You guys argue about what is wrong with this country and it is right in front of you. Nobody gives a crap about anything or anyone ecept for themselves and that is your "reality" in action. Thank God the founding fathers did not hold your same ideals because if they did there may have never been a US of A a county founded on idealism.

Lothar5150 · 10-14-2004, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torin

Well about Afghanistan, I assume you heard of the population trying to cheat the process, vote multiple times, and 14/16 of the people who could be elected dropping out and boycotting the process? Yeah, that one worked out real good.

The UN is investigating this but from everything I have read, no one honestly thinks it was widespread or an organized effort.

BTW, a couple of Afghans gave their lives protecting ballots...think about that.

Quote:

The presence of Islamic extremists in Afghanistan is either significantly less than Iraq....

Do you mean the Afghanistan on this planet :shrug:

Quote:

GWB has flown in the face of foreign policy, and changed the way the world looks at the USA, probably forever. I disagree with how this has gone down, even if casualties are "tactically and operationally insignificant". Is the 200+ billion he has spent on the war, also insignificant?

I resent that my tax payer dollars go to that, and I resent that our country is made to look the fool in the eyes of the world, all for a folly of an excuse like "They've got WMD, we've got to go get them."

I personally could care less if the rest of the western world feels slighted...They thought we were too heavy handed with the Soviets during the 80's too.

Its 120 Billon and we are a very rich country we will be ok

SysCrusher · 10-14-2004, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

I don’t agree with this last bit. The sad fact is that only half of Americans show up to vote in general elections and a third show up for mid-term elections. The one who vote do care about the political system and feel they have a stake in it

Maybe we should ask why. Personally I don't care for all this politic bs as I see each guy no different then the other. I don't trust them either way. I'm a Democrat because that seems to me more in line how I view the world. This liberal/conservative thing I can't stand either. In the end I'll vote for who I think is in line with my thinking of where I think the country needs to go next. Republican or Democrat doesn't matter.
I think alot don't vote not because they are lacking or don't care but because they think what they have to say or want for the country doesn't count. They don't trust today's politicians.
I'm with you when you say everyone should serve atleast some time. That would really bring this country in a turn around for the best. I did my short time with 1st Infantry, 11B during 86-90, and that was the best thing I ever done. Learned more and experienced more that carries on into my life to this day that benefits me in some way. Discipline is what is lacking with the younger crowd these days.

Maybe we should do a History lesson. What we're dealing with today in the middle east is the end result stemming back to WW1.

bigben2k · 10-14-2004, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unregistered

Ben and Torin

all you are saying is that the greater number of deaths of other citizens is less important to you than than the (far) fewer deaths of your citizens

practical ? pragmatic ? perhaps
principled ? humanistic ? no, you guys are cynics hiding behind false premises

a shame we cannot permit those who would tolerate brutal dictatorships to live and raise their family in that environment

...

Sorry you feel that way.

Such is the state of the world, there are many countries, each with their problems. There is no global unity, other than some trading factions, and the UN. Nothing is fixed without consequences, and the effort needs to go through proper channels, such as they are. Painful? Merciless? I refer to it as human nature: we still have a long way to go.

I still don't see the sense in the US extending itself the way that it has, when it wasn't necessary: the effort could have been shared, with better results.

Bush opened a whole new door with Iraq: if we don't like the way you run your country, we'll turn it upside down for you, no matter what anyone else says. This is progress?!?

I think not...

Titan151 · 10-14-2004, 09:27 PM

OK so I thought I would throw in my 2 cents. I see it like this, Big Oil or Big Ketchup. I also would have a hard time voting for a man who referred to the internet as the “Internets”. Or for that matter, a hydrogen powered car as a "Hydrogen Generated Car".

But there are also many issues, those having to do with “Strategery” that I simply don’t agree with.

But, overall, I can't wait till this whole thing is over, and the media can go back to covering the important issues, such as the Scott Peterson Trial.

On a more sobering note, my coworkers son was killed several weeks ago in Iraq. Haven't seen him since. Not sure of what I am going to say to him when I do see him. They passed a card around the office, you now the same kind that they pass around for birthdays and other events, where everyone thinks of something witty to say. sucks....

Lothar5150 · 10-14-2004, 09:43 PM

SysCrusher-Thanks for your service!

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigben2k

Sorry you feel that way.

Bush opened a whole new door with Iraq: if we don't like the way you run your country, we'll turn it upside down for you, no matter what anyone else says. This is progress?!?

I think not...

I think if you have a dictatorship you are fair game. The fundamental problem with the stand you take is that it views all Nation states having equal sovernty. I think that was fine thinking for the post enlightenment era when democracy was just an experiment, in an obscure country, made up of the world’s bastard children. However, we are now in a new millennium and this system works well. Despite the cynicism we (of representative governments) have about our own politicians we all feel entitled to some very basic freedoms. None of us truly fears that our governments will body snatch us in the middle of the night if we call the President a chucklehead. In some countries (Iraq once was one of them) people live in real physical fear of their government.

Here is a thought on the UN...it is a democratic body which has member states that are run by dictators. These dictators get an equal vote with our representative. The Dictators have no interest in any type of intervention to give their people a representative government.

cybrsamurai · 10-14-2004, 09:53 PM

Now all the people in Iraq have to fear is open war in their streets our gestapo like tactics in their homes and missguided explosives hitting their towns

Lothar5150 · 10-14-2004, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybrsamurai

Now all the people in Iraq have to fear is open war in their streets our gestapo like tactics in their homes and missguided explosives hitting their towns

Have you been there? For your edification, the map below shows the small area of the country that is on the news everyday.

cybrsamurai · 10-14-2004, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Have you been there?

nope but a good friend has and he has told me all i need to know. I would never fight in this war.

To be fair I also have a friend who is from there (originally). He has told me in the past how bad Saddam was and how anyone with any political offiliation to him had free reign to do whatever he wanted. And how Women were raped by these guys that were above the law. He also said how most of the educated people wanted bush to take him out back in gulf war. But sadly his mother was killed recently and he has since changed his tune. Anyway I really really hope this war ends up helping the people, I just don't know that it will.

Lothar5150 · 10-14-2004, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybrsamurai

nope but a good friend has and he has told me all i need to know. I would never fight in this war.

Anyway I really really hope this war ends up helping the people, I just don't know that it will.

None of us wants you to serve if your heart is not in it.

I know it already has.

Torin · 10-14-2004, 10:49 PM

Great, so 2 kids in Iraq were happy one day. Way to look at the big picture.

10-14-2004, 04:11 PM	#129
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Wow, I knew I was opening a can of worms here! Are any of our European readers laughing their heads off yet? One point that caught my attention was a reference to Korea not being able to nuke the US: that may be true, but it is quite capable of hitting other countries into which the US has interest, and plus, any other country would not take too well to an American interference in this matter, simply for that threat. Iraq all over again... Let the UN take care of the problem: it's time for the US to step off this crazy ride, and patiently participate in a global coalition. That's the purpose of the U.N., no? __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

10-14-2004, 06:38 PM	#135
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Thank you Torin!!!! I think your view reflects that of a smart citizen, wether they have the view already, or they're coming to it now. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

10-14-2004, 09:27 PM	#144
Titan151 Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 116	OK so I thought I would throw in my 2 cents. I see it like this, Big Oil or Big Ketchup. I also would have a hard time voting for a man who referred to the internet as the “Internets”. Or for that matter, a hydrogen powered car as a "Hydrogen Generated Car". But there are also many issues, those having to do with “Strategery” that I simply don’t agree with. But, overall, I can't wait till this whole thing is over, and the media can go back to covering the important issues, such as the Scott Peterson Trial. On a more sobering note, my coworkers son was killed several weeks ago in Iraq. Haven't seen him since. Not sure of what I am going to say to him when I do see him. They passed a card around the office, you now the same kind that they pass around for birthdays and other events, where everyone thinks of something witty to say. sucks.... __________________ Water Cooled AMD XP 4200 X2 Asus A8N-SLI Twin Raptors in Raid 0 Configuration 2 Gigs Corsair 3200 7800 GTX Last edited by Titan151; 10-14-2004 at 09:33 PM.

10-14-2004, 09:53 PM	#146
cybrsamurai Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ashland Posts: 296	Now all the people in Iraq have to fear is open war in their streets our gestapo like tactics in their homes and missguided explosives hitting their towns __________________ Air cooled my ass.

10-14-2004, 04:15 PM	#130
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	What more can I do as a citizen other than consistently vote Libertarian and point out the folly in the current course of govt? Also be aware that the US isn't a true democracy, it is a representative democracy. If you strongly disagree with the beliefs of one of the 2 major candidates then you by and large don't get to really participate other than by talking. The truth is the libertarian party has too many vocal fringe people to ever be a major force in the US. But if they toned down the rhetoric on things like doing away with national parks and the Fed and just espoused the basics of conservatism then I think they'd easily pull 15-20% of the popular vote in presidential elections and also would win lots of state govt positions. Even with the fringe status, there are more libertarians in public office in the US than all other 3rd parties combined. FWIW I'd have to reevaluate my libertarian affiliation if they ever became too popular because they'd undoubtedly remove all funding from DoE facilities where I do my work and probably get rid of funding sources like the NSF. It's easier to be libertarian when it isn't directly hurting my career

10-14-2004, 05:26 PM	#133
Torin Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 35	Not going to comment on the recent string of posts, but to answer the original question... I would vote Kerry because he's got the best chance of getting Bush out of office, and a vote for anyone else might as well be a vote for Bush in my opinion. I don't necessarily think taking Saddam out of power was a bad idea, but Bush went about it in the absolutely wrong way, and the results have been tragic, and continue to get more tragic every day. 4 more soldiers were killed today, and I honestly doubt the killing will ever stop. I'm definitely no humanist, and I would say I am insensitive.. but I think we should have left Saddam in power until the world was willing to unite to take him out of power, rather than the U.S. playing the role of Global Police Force. I'd rather the Iraqis kill each other than kill our soldiers. And force feeding them democracy has only made the situation there worse. Yeah, let's give them another reason to want to kill us, great idea.

10-14-2004, 06:41 PM	#136
Torin Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 35	Well about Afghanistan, I assume you heard of the population trying to cheat the process, vote multiple times, and 14/16 of the people who could be elected dropping out and boycotting the process? Yeah, that one worked out real good. The presence of Islamic extremists in Afghanistan is either significantly less than Iraq, or they act out a lot less. Well, that, and we didn't occupy Afghanistan for a year+. For those reasons alone, I don't think it will turn out the same in Iraq at all. I would be surprised to see a democratic election come to completition in Iraq, and would be even more surprised to see it survive a year. Religious extremism isn't going to go away over night, nor will it go away because a democracy has taken over. If anything, I believe a democratic government will just spur the extremists on even more, causing much of the same violence even after we leave. Eventually it will cause a breakdown, and they'll return more or less to how they are now, but fortunately for us, we won't be getting killed in the process. And yes, I'm sure they want me to think like I am, and I will fully admit it is working. I've never once agreed with the idea of being an International Police Force, and their actions are reinforcing my beliefs. Reforming Iraq is not a totally lost cause in and of itself, but I'm personally offended that my country has to be responsible for the brunt of the work. That of course, is the fault of GWB. I believe that any international effort on the scale of reconstructing Iraq should be taken on by something along the lines of the UN, not by the US and whatever small contributions we can get from the rest of the world. GWB has flown in the face of foreign policy, and changed the way the world looks at the USA, probably forever. I disagree with how this has gone down, even if casualties are "tactically and operationally insignificant". Is the 200+ billion he has spent on the war, also insignificant? I resent that my tax payer dollars go to that, and I resent that our country is made to look the fool in the eyes of the world, all for a folly of an excuse like "They've got WMD, we've got to go get them."

10-14-2004, 06:48 PM	#137
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	Ben and Torin all you are saying is that the greater number of deaths of other citizens is less important to you than than the (far) fewer deaths of your citizens practical ? pragmatic ? perhaps principled ? humanistic ? no, you guys are cynics hiding behind false premises a shame we cannot permit those who would tolerate brutal dictatorships to live and raise their family in that environment but you have it good, so screw those born into a miserable fate liberals eh ? make me wanna puke your "tax payer dollars", yup - you said it all right there

10-14-2004, 07:08 PM	#139
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	as a matter of principle we should eliminate all repressive regimes the UN is a conspiracy of tyrants, this is why the UN is worthless and will never have any 'moral' justification as a child watching the Hungarian Revolution I asked why we, the champions of liberty, were not helping them ? then I came to understand the dishonesty of all governments, the eternal accommodators to remain in power go buy a new car, Torin you too Ben take a whirl on the backs of those in the oil producing countries living in starvation that's not your problem

10-14-2004, 07:08 PM	#140
psychofunk Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 365	Man I just don't get it. When did wanting to help others become a bad thing? Yes, as I am sure you already guessed, I am a liberal (not exactly as you described though pH) I understand that some of our current systems are a drain in their current form, but rather than cut off all help and crawl into a corner petting our "precious" why not make changes to improve our systems. People need help and that is a reality. All is not equal here and all do not have the same opportunities. Just as a small example here in LA, we have schools in South Central that have 1 book to every 2 students and then you have schools in the Pallisades with new books every couple of years and at least 1 per student with extras just in case. Then when a community trys to come together we are not allowed to donate books instead we have to give the money to the district who determines where the money is to go. Which if they were doing that job right in the first place we would'nt be faced with this problem. Yeah......I got your equal hangin.... Look I know that is not the nicest thing to say but when did it get so that idealism and reality could not coexist. And how is it that a military man can not be idealistic. You risk your life for idealism, to help someone, your country who is your family and who are your neighbors, your friends and even complete strangers. You are idealism at it's best because you are idealism in action. F U C K that, I spent the first 20 some odd of my life not giving a mad F U C K about anything and I will not be part of that anymore. You guys argue about what is wrong with this country and it is right in front of you. Nobody gives a crap about anything or anyone ecept for themselves and that is your "reality" in action. Thank God the founding fathers did not hold your same ideals because if they did there may have never been a US of A a county founded on idealism.

10-14-2004, 10:49 PM	#150
Torin Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 35	Great, so 2 kids in Iraq were happy one day. Way to look at the big picture.

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