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Unread 10-16-2002, 08:29 PM   #76
utabintarbo
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k

Of course I'm not trying to imply that "need makes right" either. This is my "problem solving" approach:
-find the cause
-open a forum to solutions
-execute a fix

Allow a "small" modification:
-find the cause
-open a forum to solutions
-execute a fix consistent with the rights of those affected.

If we trample one's rights to ensure some allegedly positive end, we have gained nothing except the precedent of trampling rights. Robbing Peter to pay Paul might get Paul's approval, but what about Peter? What's to stop any of us becoming Peter?

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Unread 10-16-2002, 08:38 PM   #77
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Of course, I just gave ya'll the short version. Otherwise, it becomes a perpetual effort! (Is that what they call "job security"?)
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Unread 10-16-2002, 08:49 PM   #78
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isn't life a perpetual effort?
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Unread 10-16-2002, 08:54 PM   #79
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'till you enter through the window
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Unread 10-16-2002, 09:20 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by unregistered
bigben2k

Is that true? Is it the least of all possible evils?

I don't have a gun, and I do insist that my kids don't play with toy guns either. That being said, I have entertained the idea of getting one for some time.

2 things:

1-One must be prepared to shoot at another human being. It's hard to tell if one could, until faced with the situation. It's hard to do, for anyone.

2-I would not shoot down an unarmed person. That would be an unnecessary use of force. I may threaten to shoot, while calling the authorities, but if he decided to run off, then I'd let him. Either way, I doubt I'd ever see him/her again.

Of course sometimes it's not possible to tell if an intruder is armed, but the importance of "property" does not come to be as being above the life of others, no matter what they do. The "shoot first, sort them out later" mantra doesn't fly with me.

Quote:
Originally posted by unregistered
Ben

to say that your post exhibits imprecise, confused, circular, and irrational 'thought' would be an understatement

The world according to Bill, eh? I would not categorize what Ben said as anything you described nor do I think he is a fool. Maybe where you live your kind of justice flies. Some folks like to think you can shoot anybody in your home, regardless of circumstances. They entertain ideas of going to the kitchen to put a knife in their hand if they are unarmed. Where you live in the US determines the scrutiny you come under when deadly force is used. The type of weapon you use, the bullet you fire, was the perp armed, can come into question. Your way just doesn't work for everyone, everywhere, everytime.

And what’s wrong with a human being not wanting to use deadly force unless absolutely necessary? There are times when the mere presence of a firearm deters a crime. The NRA publishes a page full monthly. Sure there are times when it needs to be used and one should be mentally prepared and trained, but most are not.

I've always had guns and taught my wife to use them. She didn't care for them and could barely cock and lock a .45 Colt. Till one night I wasn't home about 20 years ago and she deterred a break in through the window just by pointing it at the masked, would be intruder. Maybe being a woman alone she could of shot him and not been charged, but she didn't want to shoot because she wasn't at a point of fearing for her safety and would of had to live with it. The what if's go on, what if he came back with a gun, what if he went to another house and harmed someone in the future arguments can be debated, but what if she shot him and she wasn't the same person after that?

If one wants to set themselves ahead of time to be the judge, jury and executioner when someone breaks in fine. But if a guy admits he has doubts about using deadly force there is nothing wrong with him in my eyes. We all have to live with our actions.
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Unread 10-16-2002, 09:29 PM   #81
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no argument; this is all about choices,
and the freedom to make them - and accepting the consequences

not MY world, I'm just passing through and doing my bit
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Unread 10-16-2002, 09:37 PM   #82
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I'd say that the man had no right to be be on my property. He could be a threat to me or my family which is something that an insurance policy cant replace. Is life not of importance now and if so why worry about the robber?

I work for my goodies the robber should have to do the same.

Yeah the media doesnt lie. Everyone or at least kids that plays violent computer games go insain dont they?

On the topic of guns. Just because you own a computer does it mean that you'll be hacking other computers? I would enjoy having a .50 BMG not because I'd want to take someone out with it or for protection (pistols would work for close ranges anyway or at least a cheaper weapon) but because it would be be fun to have. I can shoot at places that'll stop those bullets and plinking coke cans/milk jugs at 1000 yards would be fun I think.

Why do most people want bigger/faster computers? so they can do more with them. I cant see anything but games and intense programs(simulations) needing the power that the higher end computers have. They serve no real purpose but you can have fun on them.

Why do people hotrod their cars(street cars)? They dont have any real porpose but to have fun with too. Oh and they take lives at times dont they? Should they start being regulated?

I enjoy shooting. I see no problem with people having .50 BMGs to shoot with as long as they use them properly(good backstop ect.). Full auto guns would be fun too I'm sure. I've had no chance to shoot any yet but I wanna. When used properly all guns are safe. When use improperly EVERYTHIG is deadly.
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Unread 10-16-2002, 10:59 PM   #83
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Well thebigNil, I agree that a criminal breaking in has no right to be on the property, but the law gives him rights. With law there is no real justice sometimes, just details and how they are presented by an attorney.

Full auto is fun. We had a place nearby us where we could shoot them, called Buffalo Rock. It was an old strip mine made into a shooting range prior to the land reclamation act. To bring your own class III weapons, you had to be licensed and just pay the range fee. Was run by a sometimes crabby old Marine nicknamed Sparky. He was a Korean War vet that did bit parts in some old movies and was advisor to others regarding weapons. He had near every kind of full auto weapon made and you could rent them and shoot them under supervision (unless you were licensed, then by yourself). But you had to buy his ammo if you used his guns, thats where he made his money. Fee was $20 for 20 rounds of rifle or 50 rounds of pistol.

But about 15 years ago Sparky and a couple of his employee's are no more, and near as the fire dept could figure one of the hi volume autoloaders set off a round which set off some kegs of gun powder. He had a storage shed full of it and it leveled the shop. Now it's just a rifle range with no buildings.
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Unread 10-16-2002, 11:16 PM   #84
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If this discussion was about America's stupid import laws for automobiles...i'd be much more involved
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Unread 10-17-2002, 01:56 AM   #85
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Well if someone ever broke into my house he has two options open to him.

1. He can run away and get shot in the knees so he can't run until the police get there.

2. He can get shot in the ****ing head as he charges me.

I guess the only mercy he will get from me is if he chooses option one. I won't hesitate either with any option. I honestly don't know of one person in my area who has had there house broken into and not been hurt if they were home. All to often on the news is someone raped, or killed while their house is being broken into. Shit last month some time, 2-3 teenagers broke into an apt. or house. Killed the women, and burnt down the house.

WTF is up with that comment about KILL ALL THE DOGS. You have issues. lol I hate cats but i'd never kill one, unlike my father. He kept setting out antifreeze for them every nite. I had to poor it out every nite. He couldn't figure out how they were drinking it dry but were still alive. LOL

mfpmax, I'd love to import a skyline.
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Unread 10-17-2002, 07:41 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkEdge

mfpmax, I'd love to import a skyline.
But thats easy...if you're rich...just buy one the most known importer
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Unread 10-17-2002, 01:01 PM   #87
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Lightning a fire

Well, now I haven't been reading the thread for a while. But I get the feeling of lightning a fire, 85 posts..... omfg! Well anyone who owns or has used a H&K USP or Mark 23 please do tell me how you liked or disliked it.
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Unread 10-17-2002, 03:22 PM   #88
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I'm in OHIO and I have a Colt Matchtarget which is identical to an AR-15 other than the name on the barrell. I just bought it at a gun show. My friend has an AR-50 that he legally obtained. But it's hella hard to find a legal place to shoot it. Not too many places are .50cal BMG friendly

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Unread 10-17-2002, 06:04 PM   #89
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if you thought i was serious you have issues
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Unread 10-17-2002, 06:45 PM   #90
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well how about this

i live in australia
and it is illegal to own a hand gun (pistol) of any saught unless given permission otherwise by the australian federal government, ie. either one of the three defence forces, federal police, state police, and other law enforcment agencies.

its also illegal to own an automatic gun/rifle excluding the previous

and its also illegal to own a semi automatic gun/rifle

so really the only gun available in australia is a manual rifle
and you have to pass all saughts of tests and screens to obtain a gun licence

i think you have to pass two psyc tests, a drug and alcohol screen, criminal record clearance and a general physical.
and to top it all off, the licence is only valid for 2 years, then you have to repeat the process

pretty much the only people in australia that own a gun are farmers, gun club members (clay pidgeon shooting), or law/military organizations
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Unread 10-17-2002, 07:03 PM   #91
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yeah, the NRA had an informercial on TV about how some UK/GBR competition shooters couldn't practice in their own country cause it was illegal for them to even be in that sort of thing...so they had to come over here to the states to shoot guns.

They made it sound like it was some horrible tragedy though which was sad.

I mean, I'd be pissed if it was illegal to collector "explict magazines", but man, I wouldn't go crying about it at 3 am.
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Unread 10-18-2002, 04:22 AM   #92
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when i said its illegal to own a gun in australia besides a manual rifle

i wasnt complaining about it
most people in aus dont give a shit about guns
in our opinion the Right people have guns (cops, mentally stable people etc)

they person that came up with the phrase "guns dont kill people, people kill people", was living in a world of complete denial

ever since the new legislation to ban all semi auto rifles in '97 (after port arthur killings [17 shot dead]) there has been like only 8 deaths in aus in gun related incedents, and three of those were cops shooting armed and dangerous individauls
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Unread 10-18-2002, 06:47 AM   #93
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I don't believe the person that came up with the phrase "guns dont kill people, people kill people", was living in a world of complete denial at all. They were trying to assign the responsibility to the people that pull the trigger. To me, denial is blaming the gun more than the individual.

Your example of the gun ban is interesting, but one would have to see total stats to see if more up close and personal ways of dealing with conflict didn't go up since the easy way is gone. People just don't care or respect others anymore. You see it in the forums, you see it on the roads. The lack of individual responsibility is far worse than guns being available. It would be nice if you could make them all go away, but then it would be back to long knives and swords again.
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Unread 10-18-2002, 08:24 AM   #94
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Actually, the NRA has used the stats to (try to) show that this gun ban was a bad idea. What they didn't show, was that there was an underlying law enforcement issue/problem, which doesn't exist here in the USA, because of the "three strike" law (three similar criminal offenses will land you in prison, regardless). Of course this assumes that a prison sentence is a deterrant, which is arguable, but in the case of the UK farmer, who was robbed by 3 guys who had been convicted of robbery in excess of 50 times EACH, I think that there is an issue where the UK system of justice has a failing in dealing with repeat offenders. It certainly isn't related to the gun ban, at least not directly.

Maybe we can get a UK viewpoint on this?
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Unread 10-18-2002, 08:47 AM   #95
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and so we (will) return to your capital punishment question Ben

a strange society that can 'afford' the luxury of letting thieves do their thing
(because they have rights under the law per SCompRacer - which indicates the ethical bankruptcy of such)
and at the same time deny medical services to the have-nots
-> and we will ignore the 10s of millions of children worldwide without education

Heinlen had some good thoughts
a moderate public flogging for the first offense (the wakeup call)
death for the second (can you say goodbye ?)

and Ben
I really do not care what the 'needs' of a thief are,
NOR do I accept supporting them while in prison
(mind you, these comments are related to theft and violence - only)
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Unread 10-18-2002, 09:09 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by unregistered
and so we (will) return to your capital punishment question Ben

a strange society that can 'afford' the luxury of letting thieves do their thing
(because they have rights under the law per SCompRacer - which indicates the ethical bankruptcy of such)
and at the same time deny medical services to the have-nots
-> and we will ignore the 10s of millions of children worldwide without education

Heinlen had some good thoughts
a moderate public flogging for the first offense (the wakeup call)
death for the second (can you say goodbye ?)

and Ben
I really do not care what the 'needs' of a thief are,
NOR do I accept supporting them while in prison
(mind you, these comments are related to theft and violence - only)
Glad to see you're feeling better!

Right now, every society has its flaws. Is it fair that a prisoner gets to watch TV, while forty thousand children die each day? Of course not, but you need to isolate the world for what it is: a collection of 180+ countries, each separate and with their own problems. (Sad but true).

I did read some of Heinlein's work. Very well written. The social models that he advances in his stories are definitely interesting. This 1 offense/flog 2/death idea though, you have to admit, is rather barbaric.

Back to capital punishment.

In my opinion, there is no justification for a society to kill its own people. It's a very old concept, and I can only qualify it as barbaric. That being said, I will give you that using lethal force can be acceptable, but only from a personal/individual perspective, under the right circumstances (present threat of death), but not that of a society.

The only reason a society would/should get involved, is for the purpose of applying a solution to try to remedy the cause that started it all. Why did the robber rob? As an individual, we don't care, and rightfully so, but as a member of a society, we must care. To ignore the issue is to deny being part of a society, and any way you look at it, it's a delusion. Denying our social membership is exactly what causes the thieves to keep thieving.
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Unread 10-18-2002, 09:58 AM   #97
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the group of 180 that you refer to, I call the conspiracy of tyrants
each is free to abuse their chattel so long as they don't inspire other's to revolt or interfere

fu*k that system

when I was a child I collected stamps and the USA had a series called "Champions of Liberty": Simon Bolivar, etc.
then
I watched the abortive Hungarian Revolution on TV and was stupefied - we did nothing at all !
what did all these words mean ?
and I came to an understanding (later somewhat validated by Ayn Rand) that government, any government,
and ALL governments, are the enemies of all free men
because governments serve themselves first

(I know, anarchy is no better as all must be rational - and all are not)

but I at least do not accept this 'social contract' swill
governments buy time so they may have their turn at the trough

I find nothing "barbaric" with the concept of accountability
on the contrary, I find it sadistic that victims and non-victims alike should have to pay (for) the victimizers
what misguided fool thought that one up ? why ? for whose benefit ?
-> and the social ‘GOOD’ performed by a prison is ? ? ? ?
you familiar with Churchill’s comment about prisons ?

such a notion 'flies' only due to fuzzy/non-thinkers being unable and unwilling to 'bite the bullet'
do you know from whence that expression came ?

if you want to make things grow, fertilizer is used
and so we have social scientists, clergy, and other collected idiots promoting violence by failing to address its cessation

a handgun, approprially used of course, can deliver accountability

EDIT: (for those with training wheels)
- Winston Churchill said (paraphrased I believe) "To see the worst elements of our society, visit a prison - and look at the wardens."
- "bite the bullet" was a technique used when operating without anesthetic

Last edited by BillA; 10-18-2002 at 10:09 AM.
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Unread 10-18-2002, 10:39 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by unregistered
the group of 180 that you refer to, I call the conspiracy of tyrants
each is free to abuse their chattel so long as they don't inspire other's to revolt or interfere

...

when I was a child I collected stamps and the USA had a series called "Champions of Liberty": Simon Bolivar, etc.
then
I watched the abortive Hungarian Revolution on TV and was stupefied - we did nothing at all !
what did all these words mean ?
and I came to an understanding (later somewhat validated by Ayn Rand) that government, any government,
and ALL governments, are the enemies of all free men
because governments serve themselves first

(I know, anarchy is no better as all must be rational - and all are not)

but I at least do not accept this 'social contract' swill

governments buy time so they may have their turn at the trough

I find nothing "barbaric" with the concept of accountability
on the contrary, I find it sadistic that victims and non-victims alike should have to pay (for) the victimizers
what misguided fool thought that one up ? why ? for whose benefit ?
-> and the social ‘GOOD’ performed by a prison is ? ? ? ?
you familiar with Churchill’s comment about prisons ?

such a notion 'flies' only due to fuzzy/non-thinkers being unable and unwilling to 'bite the bullet'
do you know from whence that expression came ?

if you want to make things grow, fertilizer is used
and so we have social scientists, clergy, and other collected idiots promoting violence by failing to address its cessation

a handgun, approprially used of course, can deliver accountability

EDIT: (for those with training wheels)
- Winston Churchill said (paraphrased I believe) "To see the worst elements of our society, visit a prison - and look at the wardens."
- "bite the bullet" was a technique used when operating without anesthetic
You hit the nail on the head, sort of.

There is indeed no accountability to anyone, as far as the 180+ government (in various forms) are concerned. The closest thing that exists today, is the United Nations, and the Human Rights advocates, but they have little power. In that light, one starts to realize that our society is not as advanced as it can (should?) be.
Is it something to gripe about, or is it just the reality of our world as it is today?

Where is it said that the government is "by the people, for the people"? Is the US democratic system good, or does it have its failings? Can it be improved, or is it doomed to failure in a hundred years or so, as has been predicted?

I missed the Hungarian revolution (a failing on my part?), but have seen many cases in the world of human rights abuses. If by "we did nothing at all !" you mean that the USA did not intervene, I've got a few thoughts on that.

It's been pointed out earlier that the European/Canadian mentality differs from the USA. Maybe it should be looked at, from the other side: why do Americans think differently than the rest of the (so called) civilized world?

It's only when you look at the USA as the youngest of the civilized nations, and use a family unit analogy, where the USA is the young-but-tough brother, that one can see perhaps a little bit more clearly, what is behind some of its actions. This "big bully" that the USA has been accused of being, is quite real. The wise man would take the time to ponder the question, to come up with the appropriate course of action, but the USA is in a hurry to squash Saddam Hussein, because it's more important that no further harm is done, rather than making sure that any of this never, ever happens again, in a consolidated effort. Why? Is it best this way? If the end result is pretty much the same, why would we even care?

Accountability is most definitely essential. It is only recently recognized that the victims of a crime extend even beyond the immediate victim, to friends and relatives. There is much to be done there too.

As for the good of prisons, I see one major flaw: a prisoner is bound to be respected fully as the constitution dictates, just like any citizen. I will advance the idea that a criminal has, in fact, abandonned some of his constitutional rights, and the medical/scientific fields should be able to experiment with behavior modification therapy on those prisoners, for the purpose of creating a proper rehabilitation process, which is the essence of what a prison is really meant to be. It certainly has a more powerful effect, as a deterrent. If you act against a society, then you forego some of your rights as a citizen. That's the problem with wardens, IMO: they are powerless to act, and they have no mandate.

Some governments have seen fit to use this idea, and use torture methods. That's not what I mean.
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Unread 10-18-2002, 11:32 AM   #99
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Quote:
government, any government,
and ALL governments, are the enemies of all free men
because governments serve themselves first
This is the essence of human nature and "control" though, eh? Not limited to governments; corporations are exactly the same. Just replace "votes" with "market share". I guess you could extend it to drug dealers as well; replace "market share" with "crack whores" or something....
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Unread 10-18-2002, 11:45 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k

Back to capital punishment.

In my opinion, there is no justification for a society to kill its own people. It's a very old concept, and I can only qualify it as barbaric. That being said, I will give you that using lethal force can be acceptable, but only from a personal/individual perspective, under the right circumstances (present threat of death), but not that of a society.
This is the very essence of the difference between America and (most of) the rest of the world. Society is nothing more than a collection of individuals , holding neither more rights nor more responsibilities than the individuals that comprise it. This is a bit of dissonance that has permeated collectivist societies throughout time.

Quote:

The only reason a society would/should get involved, is for the purpose of applying a solution to try to remedy the cause that started it all. Why did the robber rob? As an individual, we don't care, and rightfully so, but as a member of a society, we must care. To ignore the issue is to deny being part of a society, and any way you look at it, it's a delusion. Denying our social membership is exactly what causes the thieves to keep thieving.
More of the same! Why should I care that the person threatening my life or my property didn't have a happy childhood, or wet his bed, or was picked-on in school? Why is that my responsibilty? I didn't have a storybook childhood (who has?), and I don't go out robbing and killing people. It seems that the hallmark of our age is the flight from responsibility. From socialized medicine to welfare (the dole, unemployment insurance, Minimum wage, etc.), most cringe at the thought of having to own up to reality, and earn our way thru life.

Ay Carumba!
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