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Unread 03-06-2003, 08:37 AM   #1
gmat
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Default Ati's 9800 is out

Reviews are popping up like mushrooms in a rainy autumn. Pick one and see how Ati now can unarguably claim the lead (the GF FX is a tad faster than the 9700pro, with the right drivers). It trounces the FX in just nearly every bench.

Again NVidia becomes the underdog. That's good news in a way, since they never leapt forward in technology as much as when they where a small outsider.
In the mean time ATI is sucking our wallets and provoking divorces with their über-expensive 9800. It seems they price-matched it against the GF FX, which is clearly a mistake.

I want my ultrafast, ti4600-killer, DX9.0 watercooled GPU for less than $300... (in EU)
I'll stick with my GF2 GTS until i find one.
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Unread 03-06-2003, 10:24 AM   #2
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You can get a 9700 Pro for around $260 USD ... that is a 4600 killer.

Expect to see 9800 Pro cards for $325-350 by the end of the month and 9700 Pro cards for $225 or lower. I'm debating whether to pick up a 9700 Pro when it breaks the $200 mark, or to invest in a DVD-R drive instead. I've had this Ninja Scroll DVD.iso on my hard drive for waaayyy too long ....
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Unread 03-06-2003, 10:43 AM   #3
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mmhh the cheapest 9700pro out there is about 400€, VAT&shipping included. The 9800pro is annouced at about 550€. Too high for me.
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Unread 03-06-2003, 10:57 AM   #4
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You should move gmat, France isn't that great :shrug: . And hopefully the new 9800 Pro will drive the cost of the 9700 Pro down some. Maybe closer to the $200 range.
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Unread 03-06-2003, 11:16 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by phreenet
You should move gmat, France isn't that great :shrug: . And hopefully the new 9800 Pro will drive the cost of the 9700 Pro down some. Maybe closer to the $200 range.
$200 would be within my price range.

gmat: don't move: people just don't know how beautiful the french countryside can be!
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Unread 03-06-2003, 12:17 PM   #6
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[OT]
I have always lived in town, and people from the other side of the Atlantic don't even have an idea of how great European middle-sized towns can be... Often with medieval centers (where i live the center is from the 13th century), they often look (and feel) great, and people *walk* ... The only town in the US that remotely approaches that is New York. (for the feeling and people)
[/OT]

As for prices yeah we're being raped in EU, not only for vid cards, believe me. And in France we have a sales tax (=VAT) of about 20%... Heard it was more in Sweden though.
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Unread 03-06-2003, 12:49 PM   #7
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High taxes are what you get for living in a socialist state.

The reason Sweden's taxes are so high is that SOMEBODY has to pay for the professionally "sick" and lazy.
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Unread 03-06-2003, 01:05 PM   #8
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/hugely OT

belgium is the same deal, prices ott (over the top). what is really negative is that we live in a really ugly country.

anyway, i like the social stuff we got going on here. what really brings me down lately is all this US bashing going on here. makes me feel deeply, deeply ashamed. u cannot believe the current sentiment going on here. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

anyway, to the US-ppl in here, not all ppl in belgium are being disgratefull, there is still some ppl who know who is burried at the beaches in normandy.

/OT mode disabled

sadly i have to admit that game support for ati isn't what it should be. got a bud who has big probs getting his 9700pro to work with any recent game. C&C ; splinter cell ...

benchmarks run great though

edit: btw; i'm a mtb freak and those prices are even more incredible over here. a bike that costs 5000€ over here is about 3000$ in the US. i'd better go on a holiday in US and bring home a nicely specced bike home. i've ridden 1600 km's in france (from Dinant to Narbonne) , but u won't get sceneries like in BC or the rockies. (although it still is fooookin great)
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Unread 03-06-2003, 01:41 PM   #9
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Offtopic:

Pfft. 13th century. Ive got a few a mile from my house 4 aC. Beat that .

Ok, so its was a roman fishing and treatment facility. We have even a few inside the city (Setúbal) covered with a very resistant glass floor, its still a interesting site.

Anyway, my parent wen to belgium, germany , france and the netherlands on a vacation. They actually liked belgium. The shops divided by streets, the lack of "mini malls" and the large public parks. The netherlands , however, they are extremely dull. Ok, so you can smoke just about anything in the bar's and coffee shops, but 2.5 € per coffee? (almost 3 US dollars) ...damn. I get one here for 30 cents.

End of Offtopic.

I have a gf2mx400 and its still good for the new games, i play Unreal 2 800x600 at medium settings, and have good fps. I think the top line graphic cards are overrated. Ok, so you can play at 1600x1200 and see the scales on the Skaarj ... but thats over the top , imo.

Personally i was hoping that the game industry realizes that most of the pc users currently arent interested in purchasing a state of the art PC , and thus a high end video card. The games (imo) should really become more conservative on the graphics because of that.

After saying that, i think ill do what i always do, and jump 2 generations of graphic cards, and buy the next budget generation. Cheap, plays all the games currently available, and the ones you really like (the oldies).

But thats just me...

PS: im dropping 200€ for a YY cube 0221B ... spending money is a art form.
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Unread 03-06-2003, 04:33 PM   #10
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24% sales tax here inn norway
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Unread 03-06-2003, 05:32 PM   #11
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22 % tax here in Croatia. 9700pro's are around 450 - 500 Euros, not one built by ati. Hell...
I'm stuck with my 8500LE, thinking of softmodding the 9500 non-pro...

OT/

Hmmm, Terramex, I'll have to dig out some pic's of roman stuff here, and check the age...pretty usual here, my grandad had a fistfull of roman coins he found digging his small garden...
No, carbon dateing is outta question. I'm saving it for the stuff in my fridge (and garage...)

Coffee here is 0.5 Euro, beer 1.8, and coke, sprite...1.3....
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Unread 03-06-2003, 05:57 PM   #12
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Well, i do have a budget digital cam... maybe ill try my skills and post a couple of pictures, just for kicks.

Sales tax is 19% over here, but things are expensive nevertheless. A 9700pro is in the 400€+ region. I've seen a promotion that offered a 9700pro at 340€ but they disappeard pretty fast. However , i'm seeing the 9500pro 128mb getting cheaper, 215€. Not bad.
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Unread 03-06-2003, 09:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by airspirit
High taxes are what you get for living in a socialist state.
That's a complete misconception.
Socialists are *against* the high sales tax, because everyone pays the same. Thus the poor pay higher relatively to their wages, and the rich aren't bothered.
Socialists tend to lower 'injust' taxes (sales tax, gas taxes, etc) and rely more on prorgressive / proportional income taxes (the rich pay more, the poor pay less) so everyone can live. I'm in the "rich" part and i'm 100% for that system, and against the sales tax. Yeah, tag me socialist if you want, or 'commie' since maccarthism seems to make a come back lately, that would be good US style (i'm not communist at all btw)
France has been "socialist" between 1936 and 1939, and then between 1981 and 1982. That's all. Apart from those periods our country has been mostly right-wing.
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Unread 03-06-2003, 11:49 PM   #14
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im picking up this badboy at the end of the month. I can soft mod it to a radeon 9700 pro because they are the same cards basicly... that is if its the one shown in the picture! (Im cheap and i know it) So instead of spending 225 for a 9700 ill spend 100 for a 9500 that works as a 9700!
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Unread 03-07-2003, 12:24 AM   #15
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I guess Canada is just "taxist" then. They like their sales tax (13%) and their income taxes too. Oh and all sorts of social engineering to make gas and beer and smokes and everything else super expensive. I wouldnt mind it if there were any tangible benefits to the money I spent. Not so in Saskatchewan, though.

Perhaps it is just all things are relative? Where I lived in US there was no sales tax and low income taxes as well. And low prices.
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Unread 03-07-2003, 11:14 AM   #16
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Canada is the perfect example of a neosocialist state. Everything is provided by the government, and in order to pay for it, everything is taxed to the gills. Those that work hard end up paying for those that don't want to work.

France is decidedly NOT right wing ... that's like saying that that Pelosi biznatch is right wing. The difference, I suppose, is that in Europe you have a left-left, which is your left wing, you right a center-left, which is your right wing, and you have your nazi wannabes who are the extreme right, which is your only example for people to point at when they describe the right ... it is a scare tactic, and nothing but propaganda. There really isn't a right wing left in Europe anymore ... and it's getting that way in the US as well. The "Independants" over here are increasingly the representatives of the left wing while the Republicans are drifting toward the center with each passing year.

Politics are totally fscked because everybody distorts where everyone else stands ... it's like our liberal media moaning about how the media is so conservative lately ... give me a break!
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Unread 03-07-2003, 12:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by airspirit
. it is a scare tactic, and nothing but propaganda.
Not sure what you mean by that regarding our 'neo-nazis'. All i can tell is they *are* neo-nazis. And in Europe we do not like nazis. (check your sources. Le Pen was connected to Gestapo and killed many ppl, mainly Jews)

Now about propaganda. I'm not sure you are aware of what is currently happening in the U.S of A. The media are openly relaying the government propaganda, with that 'war on terrorism' BS (give me a break, you perfectly know that attacking irak will result in an unprecendented wave of terrorism against US assets), with the 'Bush is menacing the US' BS, with 'Al Quaida is everywhere and supporting Saddam' BS (nearly comical, that one) etc..
Or aren't you aware of that...
From the EU it's crystal clear. And the US televised propaganda ain't better or finer than the one served by Iraki TV channels...
And your government is trying to shut down the mouths of opponents, mainly those of the media, with tactics reminiscent of the witch hunt... Individual liberties have never been so menaced in the U.S. as right now.

So what ? All EU (and Canada and Russia, ie the rest of free world) is a bunch of commies, if that suits you, so good.
I stand with history.

PS the VAT (or sales tax) is maybe high in Norway. But these people have one of the highest standards of living in the world, far ahead the US. And their economy (like EU's for isntance) goes very well, thank you.
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Unread 03-07-2003, 12:53 PM   #18
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Uh oh, see where the Ati 9800 has led us. Truly an evil card.

And now, sports.
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Unread 03-07-2003, 01:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
Now about propaganda. I'm not sure you are aware of what is currently happening in the U.S of A. The media are openly relaying the government propaganda, with that 'war on terrorism' BS (give me a break, you perfectly know that attacking irak will result in an unprecendented wave of terrorism against US assets), with the 'Bush is menacing the US' BS, with 'Al Quaida is everywhere and supporting Saddam' BS (nearly comical, that one) etc..


I live in the states and I agree with you 100%.
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Unread 03-07-2003, 01:07 PM   #20
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Hey, everybody hates Nazis! That's what I'm talking about. They are the ones that "represent" the right in the minds of the Europeans.

Have you watched our news? Our news, papers, magazines, and pop culture is fawning over the "war protesters" on a daily basis. For every voice that is pro-war, there are ten that are anti-war, unlike the population, which is at least 60% pro-war. Don't give me the "media propaganda" BS because it is incorrect. Watch CNN if you want good examples of what I'm saying.

Honestly, I support the effort. If you are against war, would you rather that butcher stay in power over there and continue his campaign of murder?

It really comes down to this: if you are anti-war, you are pro-Saddam, because without war, he is going to continue on his happy killing spree.

As far as proof, I don't care about the al Qaeda connection one bit. I care about the illegal weapons that we KNOW he has. How do we know? Because we SOLD HIM THE COMPONENTS years ago before these sanctions went into place. The fear of the French and Russians is the one thing that the US is being accused of: oil. France is making massive amounts of money on Iraqi oil RIGHT NOW, and is owed large sums by Saddam's regime. If he goes, it will be a blow to the French economy and government. Similarly, the Russians are afraid that if the sanctions are lifted and Iraqi oil flows again (which it should, so the Iraqi people can benefit from the wealth of their nation that is currently being held from them), the price of a barrel of oil will fall below $18, making their oil wells unprofitable.

Don't give me the pro-war propaganda line unless you know all the issues involved. This man has had 12 YEARS to disarm, and he hasn't. Don't you think that it is about time something is done? How long can we give him till Next Month [tm] before we do something?

Honestly, terrorism links don't matter. We'll be helping the people in that nation by getting him out. Only the most dense would disagree with that. The US is going to do this whether the rest of the world agrees or not ... in the end, since we have to babysit everyone else, it is only right that we take care of our issues as well.

Personally, I wish we would just recall our troops, put them on our borders, and let the rest of the world go to hell, but being the greatest nation on earth has its responsibilities, I suppose, like helping rescue and rebuild France and Germany during WW2 so they can spit on us, right?
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Unread 03-07-2003, 01:19 PM   #21
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i disagree gmat. i don't believe in a media that is unbiassed. over here in belgium the media is totally against US-UK. and sometimes i'm glad reading up on some www.cnn.com so i can get some different opinions.

after reading this however:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/kagan-052002.htm

i understand a bit more why our 'peace axis' (france,belgium,germany) are so opposed against a forcefull implementation of a UN resolution. because of our total inability to enforce anything outside our nations borders (not even european -> look at who was needed to do some cleaning in Kosovo); we would wish the US to have that same powerless and indecisive foreign policy.

well too bad the world doesn't work like the european model where we can shout and call eachother names and in the end make some jolly compromise over a good glass of wine.

so do we let NorthKorea hold the world hostage; do we let Saddam laugh at the UN decisions... imagine the US not having the military to pressure some countries. Do you think that the world would be a much safer place?

(BTW, whatever your stance on all this is, pls do read that link if the whole issue interests you. if anything the point of view of one side will become somewhat clear)

edit: airspirit, sometimes you are a bit too blunt; but in the end you are right in my eyes. please don't generalise on ppl in Europe; i am along with what i consider our allies the US-UK. although there is not one valid political choice i can make to back that up. in belgium we got all sorts of left and center (all opposed to getting out saddam) and extreme right party at the other side of the spectrum. so to speak: i am caught between a rock and a hard place with my stance.

i don't think that the UK will move along into war if the UN doesn't make the resolution stick. that would be suicide for their current government. i hope the US will have the balls to still kick saddam although alot of countries will oppose. the ppl of Iraq can only be winners of that action.
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Unread 03-07-2003, 01:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Our news, papers, magazines, and pop culture is fawning over the "war protesters" on a daily basis. For every voice that is pro-war, there are ten that are anti-war, unlike the population, which is at least 60% pro-war. Don't give me the "media propaganda" BS because it is incorrect. Watch CNN if you want good examples of what I'm saying.
id say 90% of the people i know oppose the war.
The media is showing anti-war protests because they are happening. I have yet to hear of a pro war march/rally/lanparty.


Quote:
If you are against war, would you rather that butcher stay in power over there and continue his campaign of murder?if you are anti-war, you are pro-Saddam, because without war, he is going to continue on his happy killing spree.
There are many many ruthless dictators, why saddam why now? Dont you think that if it was really just about saddam there would be alternate methods of removing him?


Quote:
Don't give me the pro-war propaganda line unless you know all the issues involved. This man has had 12 YEARS to disarm, and he hasn't. Don't you think that it is about time something is done? How long can we give him till Next Month [tm] before we do something?

I dont believe you know all the issues. (no personal offense intended) If you know the true motivation of our countries leader than I withdraw the statement. And why is it our job to do somthing about a relatively benign situation. All it will serve to do is further cripple our countries economy lose the lives of many Americans and many more Iraqi people and make a few people a bunch of money.

Quote:
Only the most dense would disagree with that.
I have a friend with a family that lives in Iraq and he fears for their lives if war starts...

Quote:
Personally, I wish we would just recall our troops, put them on our borders, and let the rest of the world go to hell
I wish we could recall the troops and save my family over $1000.00 in my share of the war costs.

Quote:
being the greatest nation on earth has its responsibilities
Greatness is relative, if you are talking about miltary might; sure.
if you are talking art, culture, technologie, humanity, education, media, wealth, society in general I think we fall a bit short.
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Unread 03-07-2003, 01:38 PM   #23
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so if we can't magically convert the whole world to democracies with our magic wand in one stroke then it is best to do nothing...?

i understand u that u say that it costs u alot of money; i can relate to that and respect that. but there is also the issue of doing something about a problem while u still can. what did the US do to provoke 9/11? there was no hostile foreign policy or anything.

in the end, the future will prove who was right. but those that are interested in some history might remember...

"When British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain returned from his Munich meetings with Adolf Hitler in September 1938, he proclaimed that he held in his hands a document guaranteeing "peace in our time." In the decades since, Chamberlain's folly has become the occasion for a commonplace historical lesson: that when the "good" innocently accept the assurances of the "evil," the result is catastrophic."

quoted from http://www.monthlyreview.org/leibovit.htm
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Unread 03-07-2003, 01:42 PM   #24
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Sorry, the issue was totally clear and it has been for a long time. Airspirit pointed it all right: it's a war on oil.
Currently Iraki oil assets are controlled by the French and the Russian (mainly).
Exxon (US) would really like to get a hold of the northern resources (worth about $102 billion, last estimate). Notice that since the war seemed unsure, Exxon bought about 30% in shares of the 2nd biggest russion oil company, which, coincidentally, controls most of the northern irak oil resources... Need i go any further ?

The motives behind this war are clear for *everyone*. It's not "helping the iraki" (come on, carpet bombing ppl never helped anyone).
It's not a matter of who is right and who is wrong.
Of course Saddam is a rotten dictator. Of course he's responsible of his people famine and poverty.
But realistically. They're menacing NO ONE. Come on, even the CIA admits the y don't know about any big weapon Saddam would possess. Did U read the U.N. reports ? There's nothing there, just short-range missiles (that can barely go over their own borders), a few trucks, and empty shells.
Last time there was *a hint* of a developing menace in Irak, the answer from their neighbours was immediate. They started to build a nuclear powerplant. Once the Israeli knew what it was meant for (and they knew it quickly...) 3 F-16's took off. They blew it up in a matter of hours. End of story.
Do you think their other nice neighbours, Iran, would let em develop anything nasty ? Be serious.
As just anyone else in the world, i'll be convinced he's dangerous for the world when i see evidence. Currently there's none. Even muslim terrorists despise Saddam because his government is Catholic.
Why going bomb them, when there are too many other dangerous dictators in power just anywhere around the world ? It's not for the Iraki. Not for the Kurds (who live above the cherished oil resources). Heck, the US, UK and Turkey are already negociating the shares of oil.
g.l.amour: do you watch Euronews ? That's a quite objective point of view of what's happening. We get to see American propaganda, European one, and Iraki one.

And, explain why the U.S. aren't attaking North Korea. They HAVE nukes (2 are ready, more are to come). They HAVE ICBMs, that they tested over Japan BTW (landed into the pacific, for the test). They CLAIM they'll wipe out the U.S. off the face of the planet. They clearly said they'd strike the first blow. They're led by the worst dictature in existence, complete murderers. What Bush answers to that ? "we'll solve that by diplomacy". bah.

So what, the US are going to war anyway, economic interests are too important. Tony Blair will follow. And the rest of the world will watch, consterned.
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Unread 03-07-2003, 01:42 PM   #25
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I do generalize ... just like areas of the US are generalized:

San Francisco: Liberal HELL
Eastern Montana: Redneck country

etc.

Of course, there ARE conservatives in San Francisco (not all of them have been chased out), and there are non-rednecks in Montana, but one can generalize the majority of the popular opinion.

While I understand that there are people that hold different opinions than the majority of Europeans, I think I'm hitting the nail on the head when it comes to the majority opinion.

Yeah, I'm blunt. I don't know any other way to be ... people that try to spin things into different issues piss me off.
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