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Xtreme Cooling LN2, Dry Ice, Peltiers, etc... All the usual suspects

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Unread 12-13-2002, 06:33 PM   #1
ap0calyps
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Default 2X 172W pelts not performing, help!!

Hey,

I have a pair of 172W pelts, and am having problems with them. My XP 2400+, running at stock speed/voltage, hits 30C under load on my Epox 8K3A+, when running Prime95. This is with a SINGLE 172W pelt, not the pair. I want one working before I double them I have a MASSIVE 24V power supply. it's rated for 15A @ 24V, but it's twice the size of a computer PSU and weighs at least 20 pounds. I imagine it can easily power the pair of pelts. But anyway, just the single pelt, running at 20V instead of 24V as it's optimal.

Each pelt draws 8 amps under load or at idle. Is this normal for 172W pelts?? I purchased these from www.cpuwatercooling.com and they have recently dissapeared. I think they may have shipped me the wrong pelts, or I got a pair of defective ones. I heard TEDist let some bad 172W pelts out....

Anyways I'm stumped. Plz help!
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Unread 12-13-2002, 07:15 PM   #2
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What are you cooling the hotside with?

It sounds like you should probably be getting a little better performance, but I don't know if you should expect a lot better.

I would suggest installing the second pelt and hooking it up in series with the first so that each one is getting 12V. You should get much better temperatures and you won't overburden your supply.

How are you getting the voltage down to 20V now?
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Unread 12-13-2002, 09:32 PM   #3
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I have a DangerDen Maze 2.2 waterblock, 1/2" fittings on everything, Black Ice Xtreme rad with 120MM YS Tech fan, and Laguna Utility 300Gph pump. Closed loop system. No air bubbles. Runs nice.

My powersupply is adjusted to 20V. It reads 20V with both pelts under load, measured with a multimeter.

Should 172W 24V pelt draw MORE than 8 amps??
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Unread 12-13-2002, 10:01 PM   #4
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I think I was shipped a pair of 120W pelts by mistake Makes sense, they draw 8 amps.
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Unread 12-13-2002, 10:37 PM   #5
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I plugged some numbers into the Kryotherm calculator, and came up with about 9A current draw for the 172 Watt TEC at 20V and about 7A current draw for the 120 Watt TEC at 20V.

I'm not sure why your results fall in between. I'd guess it's because yours aren't Kryotherm TEC's.

I wouldn't try powering the two pelt's in parallel on that supply. By your own measurements, that would be putting a 16 Amp load on a 15 Amp rated supply.

I really think you ought to try both TEC's connected in series to your supply. You'll get fairly decent cooling even if they are only 120 Watt TEC's. If you can crank the output of your supply up to 28V or so, (14V across each TEC) you should be able to do a little better than at 24V.

TEC's are much more efficient at lower voltage. It appears, that for your system, the TEC voltage for minimum CPU temp is about 16V. You'll only lose about 2.6C going to 12V per TEC. (Only 0.8C at 14V per TEC.)
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Unread 12-14-2002, 10:19 AM   #6
ap0calyps
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Should my Maze 2.2 block, Black Ice Xtreme rad with 120MM YS Tech 130CFM fan and 300gph pump be able to cool the dual pelts OK?
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Unread 12-14-2002, 10:32 AM   #7
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How thick is your cold plate?
How are the pelts attached to the WB and the CPU?

The amount of mounting pressure required to get max transfer from a pelt is around 200 psi compared with the mounting pressure of 16 to 25 psi to the processor.
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Unread 12-14-2002, 11:19 AM   #8
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My block is a DangerDen Maze 2.2. Not sure how thick the coldplate is. Check www.dangerden.com everything bolts together.

The block is designed for use with dual peltiers.
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Unread 12-14-2002, 11:28 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by ap0calyps
Should my Maze 2.2 block, Black Ice Xtreme rad with 120MM YS Tech 130CFM fan and 300gph pump be able to cool the dual pelts OK?
I'd guess the BIX is one of the weakest points of the system. Do you have the fan spaced away from the rad with a shroud?

The head of your pump may be a bigger factor than the 0 head GPH number.
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Unread 12-14-2002, 09:48 PM   #10
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WHat's wrong with the Black Ice Xtreme rad??

The fan is mounted tight to the rad, with a hot-glue air tight seal. The fan is sucking air through the rad. They are mounted in a 120MM hole I cut in the top of my tower.

My pump is OK, but I am going to pick up a SERIOUS pump, inline, none of this magdrive crap, a REAL pump. See if that helps.
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Unread 12-15-2002, 10:43 PM   #11
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You will gain a lot more efficency from your radiator if you add a shroud between the radiator and the fan. Reason is that there is a "dead" spot in the radiator where the fan motor is not allowing any airflow throught that part of the radiator that it is right next to. Pull the fan at least 1" away from the fan and you will see an improvement.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 06:24 AM   #12
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I know, I just don't have the materials to make a shroud. What is the easiest way to make one? Or can I order one in Canada?

Anyways, what is WRONG with the BIX? What is a GOOD rad/heatercore, if the BIX isn't. Cmon you can't just dis my rad and not be able to back it up. If it IS a POS I'll throw it out and buy a good one.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 09:25 AM   #13
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I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the BIX. It's just a bit on the small side for getting rid of the heat of a CPU and dual pelts. There's nothing wrong with a Honda Civic, but if a Hummer would do the job a lot better...

It's not a matter of which rad is RIGHT, it's a matter of which rad is RIGHT FOR YOU. If you want to keep the rad in your case, and you only have room for a BIX, then there may not be a better choice for your system.

As jroutma said, you'll get a lot better performance out of your BIX if you use a shroud to space the fan away from the rad. BTW if you spray some isopropyl alcohol on the hot melt glue, it will peel right off.

With the BIX limiting your ability to remove heat from the system, you will definitely benefit greatly from using two pelts at 12V each, compared to one pelt at 20V. You would need EXTREMELY good water cooling to get optimal pelt performance at 20V.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 09:51 AM   #14
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OK, well, I'll look into putting a shroud between my rad and fan.

I'm going to puy a more powerful, non magdrive pump. That should make a HUGE difference I think. Because magdrive pumps are crap when you put a load on them right?

As for my rad, how would you guys rate it? Know of any reviews/comparisons of this rad versus others? I couldnt find ANYTHING about this rad at time of purchase, otehr than the specs on some german site saying it can get rid of over 900W heat. It's supposed to be as good as it gets, is it not?

Any other suggestions?

Thx guys
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Unread 12-16-2002, 10:02 AM   #15
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First, maybe you can tell us if you're using the DD nylon bolts, then try replacing them with metal ones, because the nylon can'y give you much clamping pressure.

Second, you could tell us your water temp (dip a thermometer in your loop) and report here. (We'll analyze it for ya )

Third, your rad should be ok, but the fan is really critical here, especially since you're running two pelts. Actually, the BIX is really on the edge of the heatload that you're putting to it, maybe you'd consider a big, fat heatercore? (Give me a size, and I'll give you car models). It's not just a simple matter of max heatload, it's also about how you can keep your coolant temp as close to ambient as possible (in a "no pelt" rig).

For more info, you can check out BillAdams's radiator roundup article on OC (but the graphs have been revised since then).
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Unread 12-16-2002, 10:22 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
First, maybe you can tell us if you're using the DD nylon bolts, then try replacing them with metal ones, because the nylon can'y give you much clamping pressure.

I am using the nylon ones. They screw into the bottom of the coldplate, with lock-tight, and stick through the bottom of the board. DD gives you springs to use, but I am not using them. Everything is screwed TIGHTLY together. Unless the nylon rods are stretching as I tighten the nuts on them, I dont think that would make a difference.

Second, you could tell us your water temp (dip a thermometer in your loop) and report here. (We'll analyze it for ya )

Closed loop system. Sorry. But when It was set up for testing, XP 1600+ @ 1850Mhz, 1.95V, dual pelts at 20V, prime95 would get water temps up to 35C within 5 mins, then over a few hours would max out between there and 40C. Temps were measured with a Compunurse, I just dipped it in the res.

Third, your rad should be ok, but the fan is really critical here, especially since you're running two pelts. Actually, the BIX is really on the edge of the heatload that you're putting to it, maybe you'd consider a big, fat heatercore? (Give me a size, and I'll give you car models). It's not just a simple matter of max heatload, it's also about how you can keep your coolant temp as close to ambient as possible (in a "no pelt" rig).

The BIX is a heatercore/rad hyprid design. Do you guys even know the BIX??? Everyone keeps saying its not that good. But has anyone ever USED one or have reviews/proof? Like HOW do you know it's on the edge of it's heat dissipation abilities??

For more info, you can check out BillAdams's radiator roundup article on OC (but the graphs have been revised since then).
Do you have the link? Searched www.google.com no luck

Thx everyone
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Unread 12-16-2002, 10:23 AM   #17
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Oops looks like some of my reply is mixed in the quote.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 10:26 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
For more info, you can check out BillAdams's radiator roundup article on OC (but the graphs have been revised since then).
Got a link BB? I haven't been able to find it.

(Probably has something to do with being home with the flu and having lost one contact lense, and not knowing where my glasses are.)
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Unread 12-16-2002, 04:42 PM   #19
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Found the article.

It has data for the original Black Ice radiator, and not the Extreme. I don't know what the difference is. Some of the data in the charts is incorrect. The graphs with corrected data are here.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 04:47 PM   #20
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Missed that... (darn browser!)

The BIX has a different number of passes (4 versus 2???). It's supposed to be better, but I think that the article gives a good reference point.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 05:08 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by ap0calyps
Oops looks like some of my reply is mixed in the quote.
Yeah... it's there...

For clamping pressure, I'm going to refer you to this article, and let you decide what's best

If your water temp is in the 35 to 40C range, it's too hot, WAY too hot. With two pelts in your rig, you should be able to get your CPU to 0 deg C, easily.

I'll re-phrase my comment on the BIX: it's not good enough to keep the coolant near ambient (in your rig).

A heatercore has the advantage of being bigger (more surface area) than a BIX, so it's easier for it to handle a lot of heat, but more importantly to get the coolant as close to your ambient temperature as is possible.

A BIX will conveniently fit in your case. period. We all know the BIX, we've been following the whole line since they appeared here and here.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 07:04 PM   #22
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Yes, your water is much too hot. Forget the pump for now. The biggest impact you are going to have is by cooling your water better.

The original Black Ice reviewed by BillA was very restrictive. A more powerful pump could make a significant difference if the BIX is equally restrictive or worse. However...

A heater core will get you a lower resistance to water flow in addition to more surface area. So, it will be using less of the head capability of your pump and give you a better flow rate through the water block which will improve the block's performance as well.

There are Mag-Drive pumps that can easily provide enough pressure and flowrate for your system. I'd suggest not spending any money on a new pump until you know a lot more about the issues than you do now.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 07:19 PM   #23
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Agreed, 100%.

BTW, the pump isn't going to give you a radical improvement. As long as you have 50 to 100 gph to start with, you're all set. If you want to shoot for 4 gpm (240 gph) ACTUAL flow, you'd be at the limit of what's wise (aka cost efficient).

In other words, leave that to the insane ones among us
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Unread 12-16-2002, 08:34 PM   #24
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I haven't really read all the posts....so if this is a repost, just smack me over the head.

It is likely they shipped yo ua 120w pelt. I've seen it done before.

One thing you need to take note of is clamping pressure. The coldplate is there for more than just heat dissapation. You need some REALLY tight clamping pressure on the pelt. The more clamping pressure = the more amperage draw = more cooling power. Just something to think of.

I used to pelt with a 172w pelt and a 1G AXIA Tbird. -12*C idle temps. Sucker would run 1.5G easy. 1.6G wasn't as easy to come buy.
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Unread 12-16-2002, 08:37 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Since87

With the BIX limiting your ability to remove heat from the system, you will definitely benefit greatly from using two pelts at 12V each, compared to one pelt at 20V. You would need EXTREMELY good water cooling to get optimal pelt performance at 20V.
Normal pelts will do great at 12v....however drift pelts have a max of 25v. This is why he is running it at 20v, where it should be kept for optimal performance.
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