Need some help (warning modems, some large pics)

Cova · 02-24-2003, 09:50 PM

I've been suspicious for a while now that I have a small leak somewhere in my system due to the fact that every few months I need to add a bit of coolant (I'd estimate the loss at about 3 or 4 drips per week), and with my system sealed the way it is there should be no evaporation of coolant at all. Today while poking around cleaning my fan filters and such I noticed some green deposits of some sort on the bottom of my block (bottom being the side facing down, not the side facing the CPU which I can't see without dismantling it) I'd really like to hear some opinions about what you all think this could be. I'm fairly sure it's my coolant, but I don't see how it could be getting to where it is as there's no deposits/discoloration at all connecting the bad-looking area to the barbs/fittings, I think the coolant may be leaking from the side of the block that is mounted to the CPU, which I can't see at all without dismantling the system (which I plan on doing when I have more free time after seeing this). Anyways, it's hard to describe, so I took some pictures. These are pretty much at the limit of what my crappy old digi-cam can do, but I've left them uncompressed/cropped for full detail. If you want any other pics that I could try and get without dismantling please ask - when I do get time to take it apart I'll post pics from the other side.

Edit:
A few more details in questions I've been asked in IRC for future readers...

The block is a Maze-2, and it's been running in that system with no maintenence done to it other than occasional topping-up of the coolant for almost one year now. (the amount and frequency I need to add coolant is how I estimate the leak-rate). And if you're wondering, that orange thing on top of the block between the barbs is a flat thermistor.

#Rotor · 02-24-2003, 10:08 PM

ok looks like your leak is coming from within the area inside that blue ellipse, your block is not a soldered one, right

Cova · 02-24-2003, 10:15 PM

The block is soldered - it is a Maze-2.

btw - we're chatting about it right now in pro-chat.

jaydee · 02-24-2003, 11:48 PM

Looks like time for a re-solder job ah? Theoretically, you should be able to heat it up just enough for the solder to melt and then apply some pressure so the solder squishes a little closing any gaps?

bigben2k · 02-25-2003, 01:23 PM

Why don't you e-mail DD about it? Ask them for advice on how to fix it yourself.

Off-hand, I'd guess that the leak is so small that it only occurs while the system is pressured up, i.e. when you turn it on, and the pump starts (because it can create a brief pressure surge).

Cova · 02-25-2003, 03:14 PM

I have e-mailed DD about it, but I like to have lots of opinions when I have a potentially serious problem. I sat last night just staring at the block for almost an hour, and I just can't figure out how I could get coolant-stains on the block where they are, I'm really stumped. If there is a pinhole leak on the baseplate as I suspect, why does the stain come up onto the top/front face of the block? Same thing applies if the leak is in the solder joint.

Also, the pump is on 24/7, even if the system is off. I don't have a relay or anything else, and still follow the (possibly proven wrong when I wasn't watching/reading the boards) rule that says these little aquarium pumps last longer if they aren't cycled on/off all the time.

Anyways, when I get home today (writing this from work) I'm going to tear it all apart and get a closer look - I'll update the thread if/when I find out anything.

saton472 · 02-25-2003, 03:47 PM

dust

Hey you might want to put som fliters on your cas fans because you stuff looks really dirty.

gmat · 02-25-2003, 05:11 PM

MMh i have the same block. Time to check it closely, it has been running for nearly 2 years now

Cova · 02-25-2003, 06:41 PM

saton472: I do have filters on all my intake fans - if you read the text of the first post you would see I was cleaning them when I found that stain on the block. You don't wanna see the fist-size pile'o'dust I pulled out of the filters before I took those pics

(actually - mostly dog-hair - any other dog-owners here should be able to confirm that pets do tend to fill computers with unwanted fur/dust)

UnloadeD · 02-25-2003, 07:18 PM

Only one picture shows for me, this one:
http://3rotor.homelinux.com/images/m...s/DSCF0007.jpg
I'm wondering what that is in the lower right hand corner? Looks like a bunch of extra thermal compound? If so, the stain looks to me like it could have came from your compound seperating over time. Do you have any UV dye in your coolant? If so, does the stain glow?

peace.
unloaded

Cova · 02-25-2003, 08:16 PM

Odd that they don't show - it's all hosted from my house/cable-modem, and it's worked fine for me from home and work. All I can suggest is try again.

No, I don't have any UV dye, and no black-light either. Would be handy though for more than just cool looks now though.

I've cleaned the block off now (it's still not mounted) and will be putting it back together soon, with more pictures from behind and stuff. I still can't really explain how the stains all got where they did - if it is extra thermal compount, how did it get onto the front/top of the block? I just can't think of any way that whatever made the stain could have gotten onto the front, lower edge, and back of the block - it just shouldn't wrap around like that. In order to keep air-bubbles re-entering the coolant loop I've been very careful to make sure that the system is never tilted more than 45 degrees over when moving it around It just doesn't make sense.

As soon as I get it back together, I'll put up the rest of the pics. I don't have drivers for my camera on my server (where I'm writing this from)

Since87 · 02-25-2003, 08:27 PM

Could the direction that a fan is blowing, explain the pattern of the stain?

Cova · 02-25-2003, 10:24 PM

System is back up and running, temps seem better than before too, but I'll let it fold for an hour at least before I made a real decision about that (and my damn folding client seems to be stuck at "Checking for newer versions...". I don't often get to see my system temps with cold coolant in it as it folds all day when I'm at work so is warm when I get home, but I can't remember the last time I saw a CPU temp of 34 (though it's climbed to 38 by now still with no load - folding client just told me servers down for protein change)

I'll be keeping a close eye on it over the next couple months for new stains developing, I cleaned the whole thing off (except for CPU contact area which was clean and I don't wanna scratch at all) with a wet piece of 600-grit sandpaper - it's all nice and shiney again.

Pics soon - my camera is serial and will take at least 30 mins to transfer all the pics.

Edit:
As for the fans explaining the stain pattern - actually taking that into account it gets even harder to understand. The chipset fan (which you can see in the original pics) won't move near enough air to move liquid like that, and if it could I don't think it would push it that direction. The only other fan that would have an effect there would be the rad, mounted in the very front/bottom and sucking air into the case. If that had had any effect on any liquid before it evaporated you would think that the line of ... stuff on the bottom of the CPU would have been blown to the left of the block, not to the right where it ended up.

I've pretty much given up guessing where it came from. I'm hoping it doesn't come back, and will be watching closely so if it does I'll see it right where it starts.

koslov · 02-26-2003, 12:33 AM

Do you have a torch? You could heat it up and take off the top. That way you could inspect the baseplate for cracks due to corrosion, as well as giving it a good cleaning with some ketchup to improve heat transfer. Then cold weld / solder it back together.

UnloadeD · 02-26-2003, 07:52 AM

I can see all the pics now, musta had bad routes last night. Is that globbed Arctic Silver we're seeing on the right? If so, you're using waaaayyy too much of it. Anyway, about the stain, the more i look the more I wonder. Maybe something got on it before you installed it. And after time it's tarnished there and thats what you are seeing. While you had it out you should have stuck it underwater and blown in a tube with other side blocked. Any leak should have shown a small stream of bubbles.

peace.
unloaded

Axle · 02-27-2003, 02:15 PM

I'd try to steel wool it out first, I agree unloaded. If it really does show itself to have come unsoldered (although I can't even think of anyway it's even possible), just make sure it's clean, clamp it in a vice real right, and just dab some solder on the surface.

But if it aint broke don't fix it....

JimS · 03-02-2003, 09:37 PM

It's leaking at the seam where the block is soldered together. I had a similar problem with a chillerblock I made.

Only problem with resoldering it is that once you heat the block up again, you might do more damage than good. I took mine completely apart, beltsanded all the old solder off, then retinned it, fluxed and resoldered.

As a quick fix, I would clean the area of the leak real well with a wire brush, flux it and solder it. You could put the block in a container of water with only the damaged edge out of the water and this would keep the rest of the block cool enough so that all the solder won't reheat and cause more possible leaks. I have done this and had it work.

Make sure you pressure test it before reinstalling.

02-24-2003, 09:50 PM	#1
Cova Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 247	Need some help (warning modems, some large pics) I've been suspicious for a while now that I have a small leak somewhere in my system due to the fact that every few months I need to add a bit of coolant (I'd estimate the loss at about 3 or 4 drips per week), and with my system sealed the way it is there should be no evaporation of coolant at all. Today while poking around cleaning my fan filters and such I noticed some green deposits of some sort on the bottom of my block (bottom being the side facing down, not the side facing the CPU which I can't see without dismantling it) I'd really like to hear some opinions about what you all think this could be. I'm fairly sure it's my coolant, but I don't see how it could be getting to where it is as there's no deposits/discoloration at all connecting the bad-looking area to the barbs/fittings, I think the coolant may be leaking from the side of the block that is mounted to the CPU, which I can't see at all without dismantling the system (which I plan on doing when I have more free time after seeing this). Anyways, it's hard to describe, so I took some pictures. These are pretty much at the limit of what my crappy old digi-cam can do, but I've left them uncompressed/cropped for full detail. If you want any other pics that I could try and get without dismantling please ask - when I do get time to take it apart I'll post pics from the other side. Edit: A few more details in questions I've been asked in IRC for future readers... The block is a Maze-2, and it's been running in that system with no maintenence done to it other than occasional topping-up of the coolant for almost one year now. (the amount and frequency I need to add coolant is how I estimate the leak-rate). And if you're wondering, that orange thing on top of the block between the barbs is a flat thermistor. Last edited by Cova; 02-24-2003 at 10:28 PM.

02-24-2003, 10:08 PM	#2
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	ok looks like your leak is coming from within the area inside that blue ellipse, your block is not a soldered one, right __________________ There is no Spoon....

02-25-2003, 01:23 PM	#5
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Why don't you e-mail DD about it? Ask them for advice on how to fix it yourself. Off-hand, I'd guess that the leak is so small that it only occurs while the system is pressured up, i.e. when you turn it on, and the pump starts (because it can create a brief pressure surge). __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

02-25-2003, 03:47 PM	#7
saton472 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 57	ahhh dust dust Hey you might want to put som fliters on your cas fans because you stuff looks really dirty. __________________ Live and learn. Then get a Dremel.

02-27-2003, 02:15 PM	#16
Axle Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Wind Gap, PA Posts: 112	I'd try to steel wool it out first, I agree unloaded. If it really does show itself to have come unsoldered (although I can't even think of anyway it's even possible), just make sure it's clean, clamp it in a vice real right, and just dab some solder on the surface. But if it aint broke don't fix it.... __________________ "Once we've got those bugs flattened out, we'll be running on flat bugs"

02-24-2003, 10:15 PM	#3
Cova Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 247	The block is soldered - it is a Maze-2. btw - we're chatting about it right now in pro-chat.

02-24-2003, 11:48 PM	#4
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Looks like time for a re-solder job ah? Theoretically, you should be able to heat it up just enough for the solder to melt and then apply some pressure so the solder squishes a little closing any gaps?

02-25-2003, 03:14 PM	#6
Cova Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 247	I have e-mailed DD about it, but I like to have lots of opinions when I have a potentially serious problem. I sat last night just staring at the block for almost an hour, and I just can't figure out how I could get coolant-stains on the block where they are, I'm really stumped. If there is a pinhole leak on the baseplate as I suspect, why does the stain come up onto the top/front face of the block? Same thing applies if the leak is in the solder joint. Also, the pump is on 24/7, even if the system is off. I don't have a relay or anything else, and still follow the (possibly proven wrong when I wasn't watching/reading the boards) rule that says these little aquarium pumps last longer if they aren't cycled on/off all the time. Anyways, when I get home today (writing this from work) I'm going to tear it all apart and get a closer look - I'll update the thread if/when I find out anything.

02-25-2003, 05:11 PM	#8
gmat Thermophile Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: France Posts: 1,221	MMh i have the same block. Time to check it closely, it has been running for nearly 2 years now

02-25-2003, 06:41 PM	#9
Cova Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 247	saton472: I do have filters on all my intake fans - if you read the text of the first post you would see I was cleaning them when I found that stain on the block. You don't wanna see the fist-size pile'o'dust I pulled out of the filters before I took those pics (actually - mostly dog-hair - any other dog-owners here should be able to confirm that pets do tend to fill computers with unwanted fur/dust)

02-25-2003, 07:18 PM	#10
UnloadeD Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: MidWest USA Posts: 176	Only one picture shows for me, this one: http://3rotor.homelinux.com/images/m...s/DSCF0007.jpg I'm wondering what that is in the lower right hand corner? Looks like a bunch of extra thermal compound? If so, the stain looks to me like it could have came from your compound seperating over time. Do you have any UV dye in your coolant? If so, does the stain glow? peace. unloaded

02-25-2003, 08:16 PM	#11
Cova Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 247	Odd that they don't show - it's all hosted from my house/cable-modem, and it's worked fine for me from home and work. All I can suggest is try again. No, I don't have any UV dye, and no black-light either. Would be handy though for more than just cool looks now though. I've cleaned the block off now (it's still not mounted) and will be putting it back together soon, with more pictures from behind and stuff. I still can't really explain how the stains all got where they did - if it is extra thermal compount, how did it get onto the front/top of the block? I just can't think of any way that whatever made the stain could have gotten onto the front, lower edge, and back of the block - it just shouldn't wrap around like that. In order to keep air-bubbles re-entering the coolant loop I've been very careful to make sure that the system is never tilted more than 45 degrees over when moving it around It just doesn't make sense. As soon as I get it back together, I'll put up the rest of the pics. I don't have drivers for my camera on my server (where I'm writing this from)

02-25-2003, 08:27 PM	#12
Since87 Pro/Guru - Uber Mod Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 834	Could the direction that a fan is blowing, explain the pattern of the stain?

02-25-2003, 10:24 PM	#13
Cova Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 247	System is back up and running, temps seem better than before too, but I'll let it fold for an hour at least before I made a real decision about that (and my damn folding client seems to be stuck at "Checking for newer versions...". I don't often get to see my system temps with cold coolant in it as it folds all day when I'm at work so is warm when I get home, but I can't remember the last time I saw a CPU temp of 34 (though it's climbed to 38 by now still with no load - folding client just told me servers down for protein change) I'll be keeping a close eye on it over the next couple months for new stains developing, I cleaned the whole thing off (except for CPU contact area which was clean and I don't wanna scratch at all) with a wet piece of 600-grit sandpaper - it's all nice and shiney again. Pics soon - my camera is serial and will take at least 30 mins to transfer all the pics. Edit: As for the fans explaining the stain pattern - actually taking that into account it gets even harder to understand. The chipset fan (which you can see in the original pics) won't move near enough air to move liquid like that, and if it could I don't think it would push it that direction. The only other fan that would have an effect there would be the rad, mounted in the very front/bottom and sucking air into the case. If that had had any effect on any liquid before it evaporated you would think that the line of ... stuff on the bottom of the CPU would have been blown to the left of the block, not to the right where it ended up. I've pretty much given up guessing where it came from. I'm hoping it doesn't come back, and will be watching closely so if it does I'll see it right where it starts.

02-26-2003, 12:33 AM	#14
koslov Cooling Savant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Posts: 264	Do you have a torch? You could heat it up and take off the top. That way you could inspect the baseplate for cracks due to corrosion, as well as giving it a good cleaning with some ketchup to improve heat transfer. Then cold weld / solder it back together.

02-26-2003, 07:52 AM	#15
UnloadeD Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: MidWest USA Posts: 176	I can see all the pics now, musta had bad routes last night. Is that globbed Arctic Silver we're seeing on the right? If so, you're using waaaayyy too much of it. Anyway, about the stain, the more i look the more I wonder. Maybe something got on it before you installed it. And after time it's tarnished there and thats what you are seeing. While you had it out you should have stuck it underwater and blown in a tube with other side blocked. Any leak should have shown a small stream of bubbles. peace. unloaded

03-02-2003, 09:37 PM	#17
JimS Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Connecticut Posts: 140	It's leaking at the seam where the block is soldered together. I had a similar problem with a chillerblock I made. Only problem with resoldering it is that once you heat the block up again, you might do more damage than good. I took mine completely apart, beltsanded all the old solder off, then retinned it, fluxed and resoldered. As a quick fix, I would clean the area of the leak real well with a wire brush, flux it and solder it. You could put the block in a container of water with only the damaged edge out of the water and this would keep the rest of the block cool enough so that all the solder won't reheat and cause more possible leaks. I have done this and had it work. Make sure you pressure test it before reinstalling.

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