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Unread 12-05-2005, 11:51 PM   #1
ricecrispi
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Default Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

http://systemcooling.com/swiftech_apogee-01.html
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Unread 12-06-2005, 12:48 AM   #2
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

Yeah, looks bad for Swiftech IMO. Foot in mouth time.
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Unread 12-06-2005, 12:56 AM   #3
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

I like robotech's disclaimer at the end of the test.

His approach is very slick. His data only was meant to obtain WB performance and doesn't imply anything about testbeds. Smart move

Cough! Cough! Storm is better, long live Cathar.
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Unread 12-06-2005, 08:08 AM   #4
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Default just a point

looks.
but, stated:

Quote:
The results are so close (well within the margin of testing error) there are no clear “winners” (or losers). All three waterblocks performed very well. This shows that under normal conditions the Apogee can perform on par with the MCW6002 and Storm – just like Swiftech claims.
something already stated by, er, someone (extrapolated?).
for joe sixpack, all he needs to hear.
the rest is only relevant for us geeks .
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Unread 12-06-2005, 08:25 AM   #5
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

Quote:
Note: Measurements of thermal resistivity (C/W) are affected by many variables (like thermal die surface area, the heat applied, use of an IHS, etc.) and are therefore unique to a particular test stand. C/W values should NOT be directly compared between different reviewer’s test rigs.
Well put...

Quote:
Foot in mouth time.
Yes, it is.

Looks like I'll be buying an MP-05 for myself this Christmas.
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Unread 12-06-2005, 08:44 AM   #6
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

TM
it will be interesting now to see how the many previous asinine pronouncements are 'qualified'

Scott
"Yeah, looks bad for Swiftech IMO. Foot in mouth time."
seems you have a different conclusion than Lee, care to share ?
I see no misrepresentation by Swiftech, they should be punished for providing technical info appropriately qualified ?

it would be pleasing to see ALL those who cast aspersions on Swiftech's testing to now publicly apologize
Gabe IS a liar for money, but Stephen is not

the product problems derive from Swiftech not having a QC system (at all), I was prohibited from this activity while at Swiftech
-> always inspect products prior to use, prudence
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Unread 12-06-2005, 08:50 AM   #7
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

Bill, look at the 14mm DIE tests, a Koolance block spanks the apogee... That is horrible. Before the TTV came into Swiftech's hands, this block would have been considered a dog. Even with the 32mm die it performs like a waffle. No apologies here at all, I expect to see similar results with pH as well.
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Unread 12-06-2005, 08:55 AM   #8
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

Quote:
Bill, look at the 14mm DIE tests, a Koolance block spanks the apogee... That is horrible. Before the TTV came into Swiftech's hands, this block would have been considered a dog. Even with the 32mm die it performs like a waffle. No apologies here at all, I expect to see similar results with pH as well.
I'll apologize for agreeing with Scott if pH's results are substantially different from Robotech's (read: in line with Swiftech's numbers)
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Unread 12-06-2005, 09:04 AM   #9
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA
the product problems derive from Swiftech not having a QC system (at all)
Why on earth any manufacturing company (or posed as such) does not have one? Clearly bad judgement. Maybe account for the "glitches" in process (shavings, ex).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA
it will be interesting now to see how the many previous asinine pronouncements are 'qualified'
dont underestimante anedotic evidence.

Anyway, to clear my side, I think the issue is more on interpretation on what a user wants, what it actually needs and what the company is willing to supply ( and then, cost effectiveness versus quantity and quality).
As Robotech stated, all is said in the pro's and con's list.
Doesn't take in consideration bad PR thou.
I'd still buy the Storm even if no effective gain would be achieved, for the simple reason that there is a capability to do so.
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Unread 12-06-2005, 09:08 AM   #10
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

"6. And finally, what makes a waterblock “the best”? “Best” means different things to different people."
"e. Most bling?"
HAHAHA
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Unread 12-06-2005, 09:19 AM   #11
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

wbs are designed for CPU cooling
how they do on any bench is a matter for the designer to interpret the data
you guys wish to find fault with Swiftech for providing (fully qualified) test data, different than what you wanted

Stew asked which was more valid, bench or CPU testing; to which the answer can only be CPU testing as that is real
you guys are arguing about artificial bench test results, can the crap and cite CPU data ?
so what were Lee's results ? Swiftech' results ?

so far it seems only Lee and I seen to understand the purpose of a heat die, a simulator - not THE TRUTH
I too would expect similar results from pH, and I would expect his conclusions to be similar to Lee's

I don't think Lee's article is being understood
"This shows that under normal conditions the Apogee can perform on par with the MCW6002 and Storm – just like Swiftech claims."
how does this get spun into "Foot in mouth time." ?

open mouth, insert foot ?
or just bashing ? (do continue, I've no fondness for Gabe)

ms
rhetorical; one can't apologize w/o understanding, that's what is lacking
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Unread 12-06-2005, 09:31 AM   #12
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

Bill I do understand your point, really. However, it would have been prudent (still would be) for Swiftech to use other (additional) methods than just a TTV. Why is it that I still think the Apogee does well on the TTV because of base flexing and not because it actually performs better? This is why I think knowing the core temp is important as well, If we knew that, we'd have a much clearer picture. We all know Lee does great tests, takes his time etc. Now it is about how the blocks perform on a CPU? Seems that everyone with a die should chuck it out the window.
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Unread 12-06-2005, 09:39 AM   #13
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

I just took a look at Swiftech's numbers again. The PD vs. Flow looks good (lines up with Robotech's numbers), though C/W vs. flow doesn't even come close. Screw the numbers being the same. The blocks should still end up the same RELATIVE TO EACH other.

At 1gpm:

Robotech claims: Apogee .182 Storm .142
Swiftech claims: Apogee .04 Storm .05

At 2gpm:

Robotech claims: Apogee .175 Storm .132
Swiftech claims: Apogee .035 Storm .041 (ish)

I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE C/Ws SHOULD BE THE SAME. They shouldn't. The testing methodologies are different. But they aren't so different that the blocks shouldn't end in the same place relative to each other. (For those who can't understand what I'm saying: If the Storm outperforms the Apogee in one test, it should also outperform the Apogee in another, assuming that the tests aren't radically different.)

I'll cross reference some of Swiftech's old numbers (for old blocks) with Robotech's data later on.

...I'll still wait for pH's numbers.
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Unread 12-06-2005, 09:41 AM   #14
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

Wait a minute now Bill. I see what you're saying BUT please be consistent. The quote of the blocks performing similarly was based upon: (a) a TC probe on the outside edge of the IHS (b) the motherboard's onboard diode reading system

All the sudden is that good enough? Or only when it is convenient? Both of those measurements are pretty strongly subject to temp compression and we both know that's why the numbers are all so close for that kind of testing.
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Unread 12-06-2005, 10:19 AM   #15
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

Quote:
(For those who can't understand what I'm saying: If the Storm outperforms the Apogee in one test, it should also outperform the Apogee in another, assuming that the tests aren't radically different.)
The tests are radically different...
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Unread 12-06-2005, 11:10 AM   #16
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

I just wish that Lee did the CPU test with a known dog, IE maze 3 or 4, I bet either of those would have performed in that test as well as the storm or the apogee. Then what? All blocks are suddenly equal?
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Unread 12-06-2005, 11:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

Quote:
The tests are radically different...
The methods of reading the temperatures are radically different. Thus they should (and do) produce radically different results. If we assume both of them to be....acurate...no that's not the word...within the bounds of the scientific method...? Anyways, considering that the heat sources are not radically different, the mounting PRESSURE is not radically differet, and the temperature reading methods are consistant, the two should show a similar relationship between the Apogee and the Storm (one performs better than the other).

If I were to take a viper and corvette out, and both had michelin tires, and raced them down a quarter mile track, I'd find that the corvette won. Now let's say I put firestone tires on, race them down the same track. I should still find that the corvette wins. Maybe the viper has closed the gap a little because the firestones help make up for its insufficient LSD, but the corvette is still faster. See what I'm saying here? (Think of the tires as representing the die size and/or the mouting method)

Disclaimer: I don't know which car would win, and I'm not partial to either. Its just a hypothetical example.
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Unread 12-06-2005, 11:24 AM   #18
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

"Seems that everyone with a die should chuck it out the window."
I'll second the motion, . . . .
none that I know of have an established relationship to any CPU
IF I ever make another die it will be along the lines of Incoherent's, (and it too will have no correlation)
or a simple slug with no temp at all (temp not necessary to input heat into a system)

ms
read the Swiftech stuff carefully
Swiftech's are now device C/Ws, previously the C/Ws were case-to-air/water and included the TIM joint
Swiftech data is comparable if on the same graph, not so between graphs (different bench in almost all cases, I know for I did it)
with offsets you can daisy-chain, but with errors probably

pH
no, that temp system is crap – agreed
but its equally crappy for all wbs, no ?
ah, the Apogee is presumed to be cooling the edges of the IHS better than the Storm ?
and it is able to do this while leaving the silicon hotter than does the Storm ?

I accept the concept of localized cooling, and understand the effect of a 'better' cooling solution on the entire cascade of temps through the system. A wb with a lower C/W will have a lower bp temp, and so forth. With a high-end bench it can be seen that the heater resistance changes with temp and this can be used to confirm the temps indicated. ANY deviation in the power/temp relationship is quite apparent and would render such a device as worthless for testing. I cannot speak for the Apogee numbers, but in testing the MCW55 similar ‘performance’ was seen – leading to the Apogee. A large number of devices were tested with the same TTV, and another for confirmation, and no anomalous behavior/results were seen.

That the Swiftech bp design is producing conflicting test bench results is clear. And so what is new ?
Why are we in a pissing contest over testing when real world anecdotal results can soon be had in all their splendid variety ?

in any case seems a pr fiasco with factual basis, not industry leadership by any means

yes Scott, such could be the case
but Lee and others seem to be saying that the 2 are similar in performance ??
so the test results are peculiar ?
I agree, but include the MCW55 with its thick bp in the evaluation of what and why
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Unread 12-06-2005, 11:36 AM   #19
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

While I'll admit that my assessment of the block may have been flawed, at this point I'm more interested in a determination of what causes the difference.

On the heat die side, 14 by 14 was used (196 mm2), with a 80W (applied) load. (Also a 100W load on a 32 by 32mm)

On the CPU side, the core area is 115 mm2, with max 104 W
Temp measurements are calculated as:
dT ºC (differential temperature) = IHS ºC - Ambient Air ºC

For the sake of argument, I'll add a 1mm strip around the core area, to compensate for the IHS, making it roughly 13 by 13 mm.

Obviously the difference is in the heatload. not the area of the heat die used.

As far as I can figure, the selection of 80 Watts was designed to replicate:

a Prescott 2M 90nm, which has 135 mm2 core area and 84 to 115W heatload
or
a Sledgehammer 130nm, 193 mm2 / 84.7 W
(not sure which)

What's left to discuss then is; what heatload should be used, if one is using a heat die, since it's obviously going to make a difference? (as if we didn't know)

I'd like to see Lee (Robotech) run a test series with the 14 by 14 die, at 100W (I suspect that the PSU may be limiting here ). I know its a lot of work though.

It also does not make sense to me that the difference (between Storm and Apogee) would be greater with (essentially) the same core area, but with a smaller heatload. Is the temp measurement on the side of the IHS a reliable measure? (it's very sensitive to airflow) Is the core temperature data of any value? (it seems to be relevant). Why did over-volting the CPU (essentially) not make any difference (between blocks)? What would be the estimated power load while over-volted? (125 W?)

I'm left with more questions than answers.
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Unread 12-06-2005, 11:40 AM   #20
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

Bill I'm still having a hard time wrapping my brain around some of your thoughts... gimme time but at this point it is making little sense to me. So are you saying that the Apogee, MCW6002 and the Storm are all identical in performance? The Maze 3 as well? Yes the apogee does appear to cool the EDGES of the IHS better than the Storm, that is just it, the edges and that is exactly what Lee's data is suggesting - for focused core cooling it is a dog, for cooling a large secondary heat path it is doing OK. Even with the 32mm slug it doesnt even outperform the 6002! WTF? Lee's data suggests the 6002 is a far better design, at least to me anyway. Maybe I am just being retarded or not getting it, but the apogee is NOT a performer.
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Unread 12-06-2005, 11:54 AM   #21
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

here's my take on it: (real world performance)
what you really want is to, and let's assume, to take full advantage of overclock capability of a given processor(s) (it's a good assumption).
Say you got a 2500+ mobile that does 2900 mhz, no more (assume).
Any of the three gives you that 2900 , stable.
Storm is the best block, benched, but will give you no more OC, as it is not able to do so, on that real world system. you just hit a ceiling, but not block related (other).
The three blocks are different, they performe differently, but they will give you the same end result as they three are good enough to do so.
With the Storm it will be cooler, but only such.

saying something stupid?
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Unread 12-06-2005, 11:59 AM   #22
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

Quote:
Originally Posted by TerraMex
here's my take on it: (real world performance)
what you really want is to, and let's assume, to take full advantage of overclock capability of a given processor(s) (it's a good assumption).
Say you got a 2500+ mobile that does 2900 mhz, no more (assume).
Any of the three gives you that 2900 , stable.
Storm is the best block, benched, but will give you no more OC, as it is not able to do so, on that real world system. you just hit a ceiling, but not block related (other).
The three blocks are different, they performe differently, but they will give you the same end result as they three are good enough to do so.
With the Storm it will be cooler, but only such.

saying something stupid?
Yes.
Conclusion only correct if assumptions are.
your stated assumptions are not.
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Unread 12-06-2005, 12:01 PM   #23
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

Well, all that makes sense UNLESS heat is the limiting factor. With high end blocks such as these, at the heat levels we have, I strongly doubt that heat will be the limiting factor.

This is procooling, though. Good enough is not good enough. We want the best.
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Unread 12-06-2005, 12:01 PM   #24
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

Scott
please stop whipping yourself with test data, for now drop it unles you are seeking the best testing wb
look only at the CPU results (thoughts about core and edges fly out the window)

Lee has data as does Swiftech and there are net 'reports' springing up -> but it is NOT the dog described by Lee's bench data ??
to me this a problem in logic, which is moot if CPU results only are considered
test bench winners eh ?
kinda like the dyno racers
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Unread 12-06-2005, 12:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: Swiftech Apoggee review by Robotech systemcooling

@AngryAlpaca

exactly.
assumption is that heat is not the limiting factor,
at this level, "real world" system test performance,
and capabilities of shown blocks.
as i stated i'd go for the storm, as it has the capability of the "extra mile" if necessary (and possible).
but i'm adressing a very small part of the discussion.
made my point (valid or not), so i'm done for now
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