Received my Maze3 yesterday, not quite satisfied. - Page 5

Joe · 04-19-2002, 08:42 PM

Guys, I said it before and I will say it again... NO ONE has been very successful using poly tops. just the fact of the matter.

Lexan/Poly are awesome at absorbing instant high pressures or shocks. They SUCK at long term mid pressure/stress situations. The cracks around the fittings and bolts are the exact same problems most of the people who have seen, made, or used a lexan topped block have seen.

They look nice and all but personally I am sticking to copper top blocks till either they get a new plastic, or find a way to avoid cracking like this. Cause in a system the thermal cycle'n of the metals that are in high stress relation to the poly will encourage MORE cracking as time goes on.

Not knocking any company who has tried this, its just a fact no one has pulled it off that well so far.

WireX · 04-19-2002, 08:56 PM

do you guys recimend waiting untill they put a metal top on it (what a waste

) because I am planning on upgrading soon (once I borrow a digi-cam again I will show some pics of whats going wrong in my system)

-WireX

ECUPirate · 04-19-2002, 09:57 PM

Question. If I install DDen's Maze3 correctly, which I did, and it leaks due to their ill-advised use of acrylic tops and ruins some of my components, who pays? Would I be SOL, or would DDen be responsible for a faulty product? According to all of my law texts, DDen would in fact be responsible, because selling waterblocks that leak would be like selling windshield wipers that melt in the rain, or swimming pool pumps that electrocute swimmers. (no, that's not in the books.. I made it up.

) i.e., they not only fail to perform their intended function, but they cause damage that a reasonable person would expect not to happen. Does DDen have a disclaimer? Even if they do, a court would most likely not allow it as a defense against a lawsuit. For example, if a secured parking garage claims no liability for damage done to its customers cars, and one of said cars is damaged, the disclaimer would probably be held invalid. The garage has an implied duty to keep the cars safe.

Sherlock · 04-19-2002, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe
Guys, I said it before and I will say it again... NO ONE has been very successful using poly tops. just the fact of the matter.

Lexan/Poly are awesome at absorbing instant high pressures or shocks. They SUCK at long term mid pressure/stress situations. The cracks around the fittings and bolts are the exact same problems most of the people who have seen, made, or used a lexan topped block have seen.

They look nice and all but personally I am sticking to copper top blocks till either they get a new plastic, or find a way to avoid cracking like this. Cause in a system the thermal cycle'n of the metals that are in high stress relation to the poly will encourage MORE cracking as time goes on.

Not knocking any company who has tried this, its just a fact no one has pulled it off that well so far.

Yeah, but personally I never give up

. Think about it: Imagine a custom acrylic hose barb (like the standard nylon ones you've seen) with the typical location of the threads smooth. Then acrylic weld that into a nicely drilled hole on the 3/8 Lexan top. I'm fairly certain this technique would not only work, but would be faster to assemble (no tapping), have much less of a chance of radial fractures, and would look cool too!

Fixittt · 04-19-2002, 11:16 PM

I dont see how DD could be held accountable. We all know the risks involved with water cooling.

Joe · 04-19-2002, 11:19 PM

well I think it can go both ways. unless they sell it saying they will not cover any damage at all the comes from their product failing due to mfg defects, I think they would need to cover it.

They would need to be able to prove it was user caused to have much leverage.

WebMasta33 · 04-20-2002, 12:11 AM

Ya know... DDen doesn't have any sort of disclaimer on their site... Which, despite the fact that you sell good products... you NEED one for legal purposes. I think they need to arrange one.

Fixittt · 04-20-2002, 12:42 AM

Joe, on that same tocken, the user would have to prove that it was a defect as well. Sure Acrylic, or plastic tops do have some draw backs. But I have one of the original spir@ls in my box, For a long time now, and have had NILL problems. Sure problems pop up, but if you plan for them, then all is good.

Brad · 04-20-2002, 01:08 AM

people bought the maze 1 and 2 because they would never leak, could be guarenteed of performance and would work with whatever the current popular cpu is. The problem now is that they have to go to the lexan top for looks, and in doing so have allowed a chance for leaks to happen, while it most likely will perform very well

Xel · 04-20-2002, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jessfm
We ( www.OCPC.co.uk) pulled our products from release for this very reason.
The Polycarbonate we use is 1/2" , and we still found problems with radial fractures.
The next test batch comming is from a different grade of Polycarbonate ( don't ask me what - this is down to plastics Engineers).
I too am concerned with this, hence why we never released publicly the neptunes. End of day we don't want our products doing this:

This is a development block , thats showing the symptoms you are all saying is effecting the maze3 too.

I MUST have that dye!

max007007 · 04-20-2002, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xel

I MUST have that dye!

Me too!
Where to get?
Very green.......
Wonder will affect the cooling or not?

Jim · 04-20-2002, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sherlock
The button head holddown screws are probably o.k.,as long as the holes aren't right on the edge; set them in a little. Thats about all the stress this product can take.

Well, the heads of the screws on my Maze3 are protruding over the edge of the plastic top, so I'd say the holes are drilled quite close to the edge indeed!

I am more concerned about the 'barb' holes.
Jim

pHaestus · 04-20-2002, 10:02 AM

May be possible to have the top and barbs all molded from a single piece of acrylic? That would stop any radial leaks.

Jessfm · 04-20-2002, 11:10 AM

What sice of panhead do DangerDen use ?
We have not experienced problems with cracking accross the bolt mountings.
A sneak pic of how we intend to stop our OCPC P4-Neptune suffering from the problems we experienced in the some early designs ( oh, and maze3).

Note the 12mm Cover, and use of parallel barbs. These are bonded, and don't rely on the tapper to seal (reduces the radial loading).
This is still a test block (we will not RELEASE till we are 100% sure about a product).
It takes us about 3 weeks for R&D per design change

ECUPirate · 04-20-2002, 01:32 PM

RE Lawsuits: The last thing I want is to have to deal with getting money for blown components from DDen... I'm rooting for them. I hope everything is taken care of without incident. My question was more academic in nature.
Even if they did disclaim liability, I doubt it would hold in court. The primary purpose for a waterblock is to cool your computer. When a company sells a WB, they imply that it won't leak, and ruin your computer. DDen states prominently that their blocks are pressure tested to 85 PSI, implying that they certainly would not leak under normal cooling conditions of only a few PSI. Bottom line: If DDen asserts that their blocks won't leak, and then disclaims any liability for product failure, they're still screwed.

Jessfm · 04-20-2002, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ECUPirate
RE Lawsuits: The last thing I want is to have to deal with getting money for blown components from DDen... I'm rooting for them. I hope everything is taken care of without incident. My question was more academic in nature.
Even if they did disclaim liability, I doubt it would hold in court. The primary purpose for a waterblock is to cool your computer. When a company sells a WB, they imply that it won't leak, and ruin your computer. DDen states prominently that their blocks are pressure tested to 85 PSI, implying that they certainly would not leak under normal cooling conditions of only a few PSI. Bottom line: If DDen asserts that their blocks won't leak, and then disclaims any liability for product failure, they're still screwed.

Well Im not 100% sure how well this would all hold up. Since if they don't exactly state the use of the product, then Im not sure about legal issues.
I do know how we stand in UK - and a potential lawsuit is always likely if you release a product that fails during normal owrking conditions.
hence we we don't release anything until we are 100% confident.

Who does the R&D on blocks for DD ?

ECUPirate · 04-20-2002, 03:58 PM

Again, I only posted regarding lawsuits as a matter of discussion. I am not trying to instigate anything. I'm taking the CPA exam in a couple of weeks, and Law is 1/4th of it. Just trying to apply some knowledge..

Sherlock · 04-20-2002, 04:12 PM

DD might be getting a tad nervous about you guys if they're reading this post

. It's silly to try to defend DD if they sell a defective product. If a company sells someone a defective product that does damage, that person's going to wan't to be compensated for their loss;bottom line. Danger Den must already know this and have come to terms with it long ago. It's part of any business to have liability for your product, and most companies have insurance to cover their liabilities. I'm sure DD is doing everything they can to to prevent people from having problems, while at the same time giving people what they want

. That's their job.

ECUPirate · 04-20-2002, 04:28 PM

Ok... next issue. When will the copper tops be available? The block is terribly pretty as it is, but I'm a bit nervous. Might they be willing to issue free copper tops to those who want them to avoid potential problems w/ the acrylic?

Jim · 04-20-2002, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ECUPirate
Ok... next issue. When will the copper tops be available? The block is terribly pretty as it is, but I'm a bit nervous. Might they be willing to issue free copper tops to those who want them to avoid potential problems w/ the acrylic?

ECU-
I am in your camp.

Don't want to sound like a smarty here, but lets say you lost in round numbers $500.00 due to a leak. By the time you got done trying to take someone to court for this amount it would cost you more in time than the $500.00 and if you got a lawyer involved you would lose a greater amount of money.

I have a fellow that stiffed me for $2000.00 last winter not paying for work done in construction, he is the general contractor. I have already shelled out $375.00 or so just to lien the property using an attorney. If I was to take this jerk to court the attorney would end of with about 75% of the $2000.00 and I wouldn't even recover my material costs.

I know the issues are not related, but the outcome is. Nobody is going to sue for $500.00- $600.00 it just isn't lucrative.

Personally I would like to just take the conduit bender to this guys knees but then I would end up in prison and the food sucks there!

Jim

ECUPirate · 04-20-2002, 04:54 PM

agreed. But if they issued a whole batch of defective blocks, then a class action suit would be more appropriate. However, that would certainly bankrupt a small vendor, and noone wants to see DDen go under. They do good work, and they seem to stand by their products. I wouldn't be surprised to see them offer copper tops to us at little or no cost.

ECUPirate · 04-20-2002, 05:00 PM

BTW... temps for you...
Fan on high 34C idle
Fan on low 36C idle
Fan off 48C and sloooooooowly rising

Air cooled w/ crazy fans everywhere, 50C idle.

... I'm using a huge econoline heater core, but it is mounted well inside my case. If it had any air flow through it, my temps would be in the low 40's. I've got a 24V comair fan @ about 9-12v now, ..still a little noisy. I'm thinking of switching to two 120mm panaflos @ 7v, or perhaps one 120mm and one 80mm fan. Use the 120 while gaming, and the 80mm just to keep air moving while i'm studying. My IBM 60gxp's are still the noisiest part, even moreso that the comair at 12v.

Jessfm · 04-20-2002, 05:05 PM

AH whilst we on about rads

EMC2 · 04-20-2002, 06:58 PM

Jess - heat cores from Bentley's or rads from motorcycles? LOL (half kidding here bro)

Brad · 04-20-2002, 07:35 PM

they look like a non painted black ice

04-19-2002, 08:42 PM	#101
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Guys, I said it before and I will say it again... NO ONE has been very successful using poly tops. just the fact of the matter. Lexan/Poly are awesome at absorbing instant high pressures or shocks. They SUCK at long term mid pressure/stress situations. The cracks around the fittings and bolts are the exact same problems most of the people who have seen, made, or used a lexan topped block have seen. They look nice and all but personally I am sticking to copper top blocks till either they get a new plastic, or find a way to avoid cracking like this. Cause in a system the thermal cycle'n of the metals that are in high stress relation to the poly will encourage MORE cracking as time goes on. Not knocking any company who has tried this, its just a fact no one has pulled it off that well so far. __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

04-19-2002, 08:56 PM	#102
WireX Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Winnipeg Manitoba Canada Posts: 68	do you guys recimend waiting untill they put a metal top on it (what a waste ) because I am planning on upgrading soon (once I borrow a digi-cam again I will show some pics of whats going wrong in my system) -WireX __________________ I am a Canadian Cooler and proud of it If at first you don't succeed, Skydiving isn't for you - Me The world is run by the internet The internet is run by computers Nerds run those computers I'm one of those nerds

04-19-2002, 09:57 PM	#103
ECUPirate Hottest Stank of them All Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington, DC area Posts: 533	Question. If I install DDen's Maze3 correctly, which I did, and it leaks due to their ill-advised use of acrylic tops and ruins some of my components, who pays? Would I be SOL, or would DDen be responsible for a faulty product? According to all of my law texts, DDen would in fact be responsible, because selling waterblocks that leak would be like selling windshield wipers that melt in the rain, or swimming pool pumps that electrocute swimmers. (no, that's not in the books.. I made it up. ) i.e., they not only fail to perform their intended function, but they cause damage that a reasonable person would expect not to happen. Does DDen have a disclaimer? Even if they do, a court would most likely not allow it as a defense against a lawsuit. For example, if a secured parking garage claims no liability for damage done to its customers cars, and one of said cars is damaged, the disclaimer would probably be held invalid. The garage has an implied duty to keep the cars safe. __________________ Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled... 486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course 16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem Windows XP (think about it) Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan

04-19-2002, 11:16 PM	#105
Fixittt CNC Beyatch Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tulsa Spell it backwards Posts: 721	I dont see how DD could be held accountable. We all know the risks involved with water cooling. __________________ Creator of the Spir@l Block Longest post ever http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=43808#post43808

04-19-2002, 11:19 PM	#106
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	well I think it can go both ways. unless they sell it saying they will not cover any damage at all the comes from their product failing due to mfg defects, I think they would need to cover it. They would need to be able to prove it was user caused to have much leverage. __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

04-20-2002, 12:11 AM	#107
WebMasta33 Cooling Savant Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Nebraska Posts: 526	Ya know... DDen doesn't have any sort of disclaimer on their site... Which, despite the fact that you sell good products... you NEED one for legal purposes. I think they need to arrange one. __________________ ========== --Soyo KT333 DRAGON Ultra (Platinum Edition) --AMD 1.4 @ 1.54 (11x) --768mb of PC2100 (@140FSB) --Asus v8200 GeForce3 @ 210/490 --Maxtor 40gb Quiet + 2 IBM 40gb 60GXPs (removable) + 8gb WD --Audigy --Maze 3, DD Gf3 block, 2x BIX, Eheim1250 ===========

04-20-2002, 12:42 AM	#108
Fixittt CNC Beyatch Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tulsa Spell it backwards Posts: 721	Joe, on that same tocken, the user would have to prove that it was a defect as well. Sure Acrylic, or plastic tops do have some draw backs. But I have one of the original spir@ls in my box, For a long time now, and have had NILL problems. Sure problems pop up, but if you plan for them, then all is good. __________________ Creator of the Spir@l Block Longest post ever http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=43808#post43808

04-20-2002, 01:08 AM	#109
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	people bought the maze 1 and 2 because they would never leak, could be guarenteed of performance and would work with whatever the current popular cpu is. The problem now is that they have to go to the lexan top for looks, and in doing so have allowed a chance for leaks to happen, while it most likely will perform very well __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

04-20-2002, 10:02 AM	#113
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	May be possible to have the top and barbs all molded from a single piece of acrylic? That would stop any radial leaks.

04-20-2002, 11:10 AM	#114
Jessfm Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 110	What sice of panhead do DangerDen use ? We have not experienced problems with cracking accross the bolt mountings. A sneak pic of how we intend to stop our OCPC P4-Neptune suffering from the problems we experienced in the some early designs ( oh, and maze3). Note the 12mm Cover, and use of parallel barbs. These are bonded, and don't rely on the tapper to seal (reduces the radial loading). This is still a test block (we will not RELEASE till we are 100% sure about a product). It takes us about 3 weeks for R&D per design change

04-20-2002, 01:32 PM	#115
ECUPirate Hottest Stank of them All Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington, DC area Posts: 533	RE Lawsuits: The last thing I want is to have to deal with getting money for blown components from DDen... I'm rooting for them. I hope everything is taken care of without incident. My question was more academic in nature. Even if they did disclaim liability, I doubt it would hold in court. The primary purpose for a waterblock is to cool your computer. When a company sells a WB, they imply that it won't leak, and ruin your computer. DDen states prominently that their blocks are pressure tested to 85 PSI, implying that they certainly would not leak under normal cooling conditions of only a few PSI. Bottom line: If DDen asserts that their blocks won't leak, and then disclaims any liability for product failure, they're still screwed. __________________ Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled... 486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course 16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem Windows XP (think about it) Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan

04-20-2002, 03:58 PM	#117
ECUPirate Hottest Stank of them All Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington, DC area Posts: 533	Again, I only posted regarding lawsuits as a matter of discussion. I am not trying to instigate anything. I'm taking the CPA exam in a couple of weeks, and Law is 1/4th of it. Just trying to apply some knowledge.. __________________ Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled... 486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course 16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem Windows XP (think about it) Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan

04-20-2002, 04:12 PM	#118
Sherlock Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 31	DD might be getting a tad nervous about you guys if they're reading this post . It's silly to try to defend DD if they sell a defective product. If a company sells someone a defective product that does damage, that person's going to wan't to be compensated for their loss;bottom line. Danger Den must already know this and have come to terms with it long ago. It's part of any business to have liability for your product, and most companies have insurance to cover their liabilities. I'm sure DD is doing everything they can to to prevent people from having problems, while at the same time giving people what they want. That's their job. __________________ A-XP1.75ghz/8k3a+/475W Turbo-cool PSU/60GBATA100 -512Corsair xms2400 w/AS3+spreders -R9700pro(volt-modded-water cooled) -16xdvd/HP 24x20x40x cdrw -Sherlock customized 'Hurricane' mid-tower case w/blowhole+baybus (case & ambient temps equal) -Z4(orig.)waterblock/ 380gphpump/ custom plexyglass resevoir/ Aquacoil2 radiator(L.pres.drp)/1/2"fittings/ -Purple Ice/Rounded IDE cables- All fit VERY nicely in a mid-tower case with great air flow

04-20-2002, 04:28 PM	#119
ECUPirate Hottest Stank of them All Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington, DC area Posts: 533	Ok... next issue. When will the copper tops be available? The block is terribly pretty as it is, but I'm a bit nervous. Might they be willing to issue free copper tops to those who want them to avoid potential problems w/ the acrylic? __________________ Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled... 486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course 16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem Windows XP (think about it) Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan

04-20-2002, 04:54 PM	#121
ECUPirate Hottest Stank of them All Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington, DC area Posts: 533	agreed. But if they issued a whole batch of defective blocks, then a class action suit would be more appropriate. However, that would certainly bankrupt a small vendor, and noone wants to see DDen go under. They do good work, and they seem to stand by their products. I wouldn't be surprised to see them offer copper tops to us at little or no cost. __________________ Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled... 486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course 16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem Windows XP (think about it) Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan

04-20-2002, 05:00 PM	#122
ECUPirate Hottest Stank of them All Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington, DC area Posts: 533	BTW... temps for you... Fan on high 34C idle Fan on low 36C idle Fan off 48C and sloooooooowly rising Air cooled w/ crazy fans everywhere, 50C idle. ... I'm using a huge econoline heater core, but it is mounted well inside my case. If it had any air flow through it, my temps would be in the low 40's. I've got a 24V comair fan @ about 9-12v now, ..still a little noisy. I'm thinking of switching to two 120mm panaflos @ 7v, or perhaps one 120mm and one 80mm fan. Use the 120 while gaming, and the 80mm just to keep air moving while i'm studying. My IBM 60gxp's are still the noisiest part, even moreso that the comair at 12v. __________________ Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled... 486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course 16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem Windows XP (think about it) Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan

04-20-2002, 05:05 PM	#123
Jessfm Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 110	AH whilst we on about rads

04-20-2002, 06:58 PM	#124
EMC2 Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dark Side of the Moon Posts: 365	Jess - heat cores from Bentley's or rads from motorcycles? LOL (half kidding here bro)

04-20-2002, 07:35 PM	#125
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	they look like a non painted black ice __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

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