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Unread 07-30-2003, 01:50 AM   #51
Althornin
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Quote:
Originally posted by CoolROD
In Althornin's spreadsheet:

for "% Kill-off Per Day" we have the formula:
=(1-A2^(K5*60*24/I9))*100

If 24 is the number of hours in a day -->and I change it to a 5
--> =(1-A2^(K5*60*5/I9))*100

I still get a result of 99.5763325 effective sterilization in 5 hours.

Al. -Is this correct?

Now I have no idea how often to run this thing. I would definately run it for the first 48 hours, though. And then, what, weekly for a few hours?

I don't want to have to run it unnecessarily...a few extra BTUs, bulb life, etc.
The formula for kill offper day is simply
surviveability^(flow rate in Liters per min * mins per hour * hours per day / system volume in liters)

this however, gives an overall surviveability, so we subtract it from 1 to get kill off, and times 100 to get percent.

now, the interesting part is in the s^(blah blah) part:
look at units:
liters*mins*hours/mins*hours*days*liters
it gives cycles through system per day...
The thing is, with a 10liter per minute flow rate and maybe a liter of volume, you pass each bit of water through the UV light 600 times per hour
So if only 1% dies each hour, thats .99^600, which is .0024, and so per hour, almost everything is killed off.
you have to realize, these things are DESIGNED to deal with a good flow rate (but not even 10 liters/min - 7.6 for the 4 watt device) but HUGE tank volume, meaning water only sees the inside of the device like two times per hour! So in our case, we are running water through it 300 times more often than it needs....
Quote:
Power / max gph / Max tank size (g)
4 W / 120 / 75
8 W / 180 / 150
15 W / 450 / 300
30 W / 750 / 500
en these maxed systems, each bit of water runs through less than twice per hour! so yes, even 5 hours on could easily kill damn near everything... its the same effect as running those things in a tank at max spec for like 1500 hours

ah yes, slightly updated excel file, all i added was common unit conversion spaces (gallons to liters and inches to cm) just for ease of use. hopefully its more than just you and me reading this stuff, CoolRod.

Last edited by Althornin; 07-30-2003 at 01:58 AM.
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Unread 07-30-2003, 05:25 AM   #52
h4rm0nix
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I'm loving every minute of it.

Thanks for all your hard work, I've already got plans for a Tetra UV5.

I'm just wondering how bad things like Water Wetter or Anti-Freeze will put a film on the blub..

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Unread 07-30-2003, 07:34 AM   #53
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h4rm0nix -If you are looking into these things then you know that the bulb is usually inside of a quartz tube...and some of these units are offered with integral wipers. You pull a handle located at the end of the unit and it pulls wipers along the quartz tube and inside of the housing. Thus allowing water to flush out the scum -in an aquarium application. Sooo if you are concerned with this you might want to look into this type of unit.

Althornin, I hope they are too. We have put a lot of time and thought into this and I think we have something that will be effective.

I am ordering a "Tetratec UV5 Clarifier" today. It offers a 5-Watt bulb vs. the 4-Watt we have studied, and the geometry is similar. I am going to apply your figures to my system WRT volume, flow, watts, etc. -and create a theoretical gauge of the system's effectiveness. But only time will tell if the thing helps or not...
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Unread 07-30-2003, 08:02 AM   #54
CoolROD
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I found some more interesting data from this source:
http://www.aquaultraviolet.com/pondbasics.html#7

Quote:
a single bacterium can produce a colony in excess of 25 million within 24 hours
As bigben2k said earlier -these lamps contain mercury:
Quote:
Design Importance *5, described the types of UV lamps and how they work. Lamps that produce the greatest amounts of UV radiation contain mercury vapor. There are also high and low pressure lamps. The low pressure hot cathode lamp (T8) is the size of a fluorescent and is used most often in clarifiers as it is less expensive.The hot cathode germicidal lamp is similar in its operation to the standard fluorescent lamp as it operates from a ballast and requires a device such as a glow switch starter to preheat the electrodes located at the ends of the lamp. As the life of the electrodes is shortened by frequent starts, continual use (24 hours a day) is recommended. Hot cathode lamps are made from soft quartz. The major drawback being that solarization and the blackening of the lamp decreases the UV output. The slimline UV lamp is an instant-start lamp available in low, high and very high intensity. This lamp can also be produced in soft quartz and is often misrepresented as hard quartz. *6. Because of their high initial ultraviolet emission and easy maintenance, slimline lamps are well adapted for sterilization and other applications that require high intensity *7. (This lamp is designed to operate at currents ranging from 120 - 420 milliamperes, depending upon the type of ballast. Use of a higher milliampere ballast increases the lamp's UV output. While the lamp may be energized with a lower milliampere ballast, the lamp may only be working at half or even less than its published rating. Therefore it is very important that the ballast is matched to the lamp. Remember, it is not the visible light but the invisible rays that disinfect.
Quote:
The same number of microwatt-seconds per square centimeter can be accomplished with a short exposure at a high intensity of UV radiation or a long exposure at a low intensity of UV radiation. Our laboratory and field studies have shown a better 'kill rate' at high intensity, allowing us to increase the water flow rate. Low intensity and slow flow rates caused the quartz sleeves to foul converting our sterilizer into a clarifier.
Uh-Oh:
Quote:
Note that any chemicals containing copper can foul the quartz sleeve, which can alter the effects of the unit. Clean your unit several times to insure all the copper has been filtered out of your pond.
Let's hope that copper will not diffuse into the water too rapidly...any materials people out there?
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Unread 07-30-2003, 09:23 AM   #55
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There's something about an electrical solution that I just like.

But at ~$100, it's out of my price range, where a few dollars of chemicals would do.

So is there any way that we could build a unit ourselves?

The parameters should be as follows:
-it must be encased, to where the UV-C light can't get out. if it means using a 3/4" elbow at each end, that's fine.

-it should have a very low flow restriction.

-it could run on DC or AC.

-A 4 Watt source is apparently more than plenty.

Obviously the lightbulb would sit outside of a clear tube: would acrylic or glass be OK? I'm envisioning a build similar to my airtrap.
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Unread 07-30-2003, 10:01 AM   #56
Moriquendi
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very interesting thread

i dont know if your tyalking about a different kind of uv clarafier(sp) but all the ones i have read about dont actually kill the algae they force it to clump together so it can be filtered out by a seperate filter

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...s_1/index.html

this might mean you need a filter in your system too

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Unread 07-30-2003, 10:16 AM   #57
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That is absolutely true, according to my readings, the UV neuters the microorganisms. It does not kill them. Sooo...if you have a lot of build-up and you install a UV clarifier -->you will need a filter to catch the contaminants. The filter would have worked anyway, but there would be a rapidly growing colony of nasties in the filter!
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Last edited by CoolROD; 07-30-2003 at 10:28 AM.
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Unread 07-30-2003, 10:24 AM   #58
CoolROD
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BTW Moriquendi's above link points to the least inexpensive UV clarifier that I have seen.
The best price that I have seen for the Angstrum unit is $69.00.

Moriquendi's "Vorton 4500 Ultra Violet Clarifier" is selling for $38.50. Wow.

bigben2k -I doubt that you can buy a bulb and ballast that cheap!

Thanks Moriquendi and welcome to ProForums.
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Unread 07-30-2003, 10:36 AM   #59
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Whoa.

So we need a filter as well?

This could add to the pain. I was hoping once I've got a cleaned system up and running the clarifier would prevent new growth..

Am I not understanding the process?


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Unread 07-30-2003, 10:38 AM   #60
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Ahh, Thanks for the link, missed it before.. So neutering it is then.


Time for some redesign..

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Unread 07-30-2003, 10:43 AM   #61
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Ok, I was going to add a filter in my loop anyways, so it's not a problem, but we'll need an approximate size of the particulates.

If the particles are too small, they're going to have to be filtered in a dual loop configuration, because of the high flow restriction. Still not a problem, but an added headache.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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Unread 07-30-2003, 10:47 AM   #62
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I am not planning on installing a filter. If we start with a new system -or at least a recently cleaned one- the UV clarifier will prevent reproduction on the microorganisms that pass through it.

I want to state that any microorganisms that are clinging to the walls of the system will continue to thrive w/o chemicals. etc.

This is the achilles heel of this setup. But remember the growth rate of these colonies -we are going to neutralize any that pass through the system and should greatly slow their spread!
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Unread 07-30-2003, 10:53 AM   #63
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An aux. loop with the filter and mabye the clarifier is a really good idea...let's go with this.

I also want to know the size of any copper molecules that might diffuse into the system and their expected diffusion rate.

I have a friend who was a materials major...Tokamac...you out there? (His name refers to the fusion reactor -not a marijuana habit)
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Unread 07-30-2003, 10:58 AM   #64
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So it sounds like we've got to perfect the correct mixture of Coolant chemicals, and UV light.

I would assume air sprits lysol/pinesol enima will help get us started, then it's on to the magic concoction and UV sanitier/clarifier.

It's my dream that once I've got the loop closed (fill/bleed, no res), the system completely disinfected, pure distilled water, some mystical concoction of chemicals, and the UV sanitizer, I'll never have to flush my system again.

pipe dream?

I hope not.


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Unread 07-30-2003, 05:15 PM   #65
Althornin
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nah, as long as you start with a relatively clean system, i dont see the need for a filter.
"UV neuters the microorganisms. It does not kill them. "
Not according to what i read.
It does indeed kill the microorganisms.
This
and this
are two sources among many that say so.
Google for UV sterilizers, you'll find tons of back up.
UV light KILLS microorganisms.
I dont know aobut that link that was posted, but its simply not true according to everything i read:
Pond Clear CLarifiers

Quote:
The Pro Clear Advantage uses clean and efficient ultraviolet light to destroy the green, single-celled algae
No filter needed.
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Unread 07-30-2003, 05:17 PM   #66
Althornin
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Quote:
Originally posted by h4rm0nix
So it sounds like we've got to perfect the correct mixture of Coolant chemicals, and UV light.

I would assume air sprits lysol/pinesol enima will help get us started, then it's on to the magic concoction and UV sanitier/clarifier.

It's my dream that once I've got the loop closed (fill/bleed, no res), the system completely disinfected, pure distilled water, some mystical concoction of chemicals, and the UV sanitizer, I'll never have to flush my system again.

pipe dream?

I hope not.


H
all you should have to do is clean your system, the pop in the UV sanitizer, then fill and go! Lamp life on these units is long, ont he order of 13 months for osme models i've seen.
And you should never have to flush again, because any bacteria is killed before it can create a huge colony.
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Unread 07-30-2003, 05:41 PM   #67
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Yeah Thanks Al. -I had a Brain Fart...We have shown several times that the UV light kills microorganisms. I have stated this several times here (including the opening post) and we have posted many links supporting this.

I fell victim to the same readings as Moriquendi -even to the point about the algae "clumping together and being caught in the filter" -I remembered reading that. That link is describing the action of a clarifier. If we add more energy -by irradiating the M/Os more often, for longer, etc. -then we kill them and we have a sterilizer. I need to be more careful...especially while at work...Appologies.
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Unread 07-30-2003, 10:01 PM   #68
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Uh-Oh here comes the Mutant Algae
Quote:
Ultraviolet Radiation (UV): UV treatment triggers photochemical reaction of cellular nucleic acids. When a microorganism is exposed to UV radiation, the energy is absorbed by the organism’s DNA. If the organism receives a sufficient number of UV photons in a short period, covalent bonds form between adjacent bases in the DNA. The formation of these bonds prevents the organism’s DNA from being "unzipped" for replication, and the organism’s cells are unable to reproduce. For short-lived microorganisms (e.g., viruses, bacteria, and protists), this means that a sufficiently dosed community of microorganisms will die during or soon after treatment. If exposure is insufficient to kill all of the organisms, genetic mutation of surviving individuals, as well as subsequent generations, is possible.
One of Althornin's links shows mutations at around 630 nm...I don't expect to investigate this yet...but it might be a good way to explain any failure to keep a clean system

Ben -Here is something on Cyanobacteria (blue-green algae) From the above link:

Examples:
Microcystis elebans, 2-6 µm
Spirulina subsalsa, 0.4-4 µm
Chroococcus limneticus, 6-12µm

where 1 µm = 10^-3 mm = 10^-6 m
These Guys are talking 25 µm Filtration...

Bacteria is similar in size, Viruses are an order of magnitude smaller. Then there is microflora?...I really need help here...

Does anyone actually know what biologicals are invading our systems?

If it was a fern -I wouldn't know...
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Last edited by CoolROD; 07-30-2003 at 10:14 PM.
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Unread 07-31-2003, 12:08 AM   #69
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i highly doubt mutation is a significant problem, as these units are osld for ocmmercial and home use - and with significantly lower daily doseages than we will give them...
If someone can find a mutation rate, i'll compute it up though!

ah yes - according to sources quoted earlier, UV light is effective against Virii, Bacteria, mycobacteria, and spores, (listed with specific rate constants) among other things. I think that takes care of most nasties we are gonna find.
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Unread 07-31-2003, 06:01 AM   #70
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right so we were talking about different things and btw the site i posted is a british site with prices in pounds not dollars sorry.

if 630nm causes mutations then all of us sitting next to our cool blue leds and ccfl's should be mutating coz 630nm is blue light

or is that just algee

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Unread 07-31-2003, 07:01 AM   #71
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Alright, I've decided to make the jump and go UV radiated

However, even with those nifty internal wipers, I'm wondering if the UV Dyes or Anti-Freeze could stain the quartz sleeve. I would hate to lose some of the UV power thanks to one of the above additives.

Granted the UV dye I can live without, however I've got swifty blocks that are Aluminum top and with Copper bottom, I can't imagine they hold up too long without some sort of anti-corrosive..

Any thoughts on this? I know the UV quartz sleeves weren't engineered for anything other than nice clear water.

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Unread 07-31-2003, 09:57 AM   #72
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Althornin -Is it feasible to predict the percentage of water that really will travel through the UV light on a regular basis?

I am sure that some will not flow due to laminar effects in the tubing, reservoir turbulence, etc.
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Unread 08-01-2003, 01:08 AM   #73
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I guess that involves chaos math and other unnatural laws that are beyond my reach. But...figuring the laminar flow in the hoses is easy, water is not going to stagnate in the pump, water block flow depends on design, I don't know how to model radiator flow, so one real problem is water stagnation in the res. -another argument not to have one?
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Unread 08-01-2003, 03:58 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by CoolROD
Althornin -Is it feasible to predict the percentage of water that really will travel through the UV light on a regular basis?

I am sure that some will not flow due to laminar effects in the tubing, reservoir turbulence, etc.
Sure, its possible some of the water will not flow through as often, but hell, i doubt any water really ust sits there and NEVER goes through, or this owuld be an issue in a pond/ aquarium tank.

I think you are worrying a little TOO much
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Unread 08-01-2003, 08:51 AM   #75
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Just curoius...
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