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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 11-15-2002, 05:22 PM   #126
Bruno Facca
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Lately I haven't been posting here as much as I usually did, don't think I'm slowing down the project or something like that, I'm just spending most of my time working on the block, other pieces of the "watercooling kit" or running around after people to do services for me (also for the block).

The model I was going to use for this cast was slightly irregular, one of the sides was like 1.5 or 2 degrees less inclinated than the others, there was no way to fix it so I started making a new one, the hard/time consuming part, that is the block structure itself, side walls and bottom is done, I also got the stainless steel pins that I designed (they're 12mm tall, 5mm in the bottom, 3mm in the top and 0.5mm of 6mm base on the lowest part to increase a little the contact surface so it glues firmly, it will also cause a little extra turbulence), I was making the internal divisions today when I had a new idea, since the thing is not together yet I can still make any changes I want to the inside of the block.

I tought of something to put the inlet right above the core, the advantages would be that the water under the core would be the colder water in the whole block because it just entered and the turbulence from the watter hitting the base of the block right on top of the core will also help increasing heat exchange in that area.

Everything in black (except the circles) represents walls that go from the base to the top of the block, the black circles are the pins. Number 1 is an illustration of the actual design of the block and 2 is my new idea.

These drawings were made in a hurry, took me less that 10 minutes so they're not in scale at all, the size of the pins in the drawings is too big, side walls are too thin and so on, it shouldn't matter since these drawings were only made so you can give me your opinion on my new design idea.


Pin locations could be changed in any way, for now the most important thing to discuss is the overall shape of the channels. How do you think this would perform and why? I would like to have everyone's opinion on this.

I will do a GPU version of it as soon as I have the time, I was planning on making the GPU version together with the CPU one but my time is too short so I had to give up on that for now.

@V12|V12: Hey, I expect to have them by the end of next week and yes you can still have your paintless block as I said before.

Thanks
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Unread 11-15-2002, 08:41 PM   #127
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Is it that problematic to have the pins NOT be copper. While SS pins would benefit the turbulence thing, the will add very little in terms of heat exchange area due to their low thermal conductivity (relatively speaking).

Bob
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Unread 11-16-2002, 08:58 AM   #128
Bruno Facca
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Yes, stainless steel pins in the actual block would be very bad. I'm talking about the pins for the casting model. Again, the blocks will be 100% copper.

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Unread 11-17-2002, 04:45 AM   #129
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No2 is kinda how I was gonna mod my DD Maze3...
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Unread 11-17-2002, 12:25 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bruno Facca
Yes, stainless steel pins in the actual block would be very bad. I'm talking about the pins for the casting model. Again, the blocks will be 100% copper.
Oh. ... Never mind.
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Unread 11-17-2002, 04:48 PM   #131
Bruno Facca
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Thanks for your feedback so far.

I really don't know wich design to go with. Come on everyone, don't be afraid to post

Thanks
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Unread 11-17-2002, 06:49 PM   #132
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#2 should perform better.
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Unread 11-18-2002, 09:41 AM   #133
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I would say #2 is the best choice.
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Unread 11-18-2002, 06:02 PM   #134
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Hey! I'm LOVING the #2 design, I wish you'd have thought of that earlier, man that design looks far superior to the first one... since it's much less restrictive, based on the looks so far etc... DO THE #2 one!
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Unread 11-20-2002, 06:51 PM   #135
Bruno Facca
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Thanks for your ideas.

I think #2 should perform better but nothing better than making a couple of each, test them and start producing the one that performs better, that shouldn't take more than a day to test.

The guy that was supposed to deliver the copper plate that will be used to make the tops today delayed it, he said it can take to friday to get here

These things should be ready a long time ago and I'm working hard on them, they wont be ready this week as I tought they were, it sucks depending on other people...

Thank you
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Unread 11-28-2002, 03:14 PM   #136
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I disappeared for almost a week because my distraction killed my XP 1600+, I took the water block I was testing out of the PC, went out to do some stuff, when I got back home I didn't remember the PC had no cooler installed, I turned it on and after a couple of seconds when I realized what I did, the processor was already dead, so I had to wait like 5 days for a new one. It's the second processor I loose this way if anyone knows a "cure for excess distraction" let me know, and before you ask, no, i'm not smoking weed.

There are so much news I don't know where to begin. Before I begin to tell you the news I'd like to make something clear: By now some (maybe a lot) of people must be thinking I'm one of those guys to talks a lot and actually does little, that is very wrong, I'll explain the reason for all this delay: I depend on other people for some parts of the job, like cutting the tops (4.75mm copper), making the custom hose fittings and painting the tops (epoxy paint), so sometimes a delay is not my delay. Another thing is, casting is a damn complicated process when dealing with small pieces full of detail like these copper blocks so sometimes I have problems with it, like yesterday I did everything right, exactly like the other time when the cast was good and I got 3 good ones out of 15 pieces, that's just not acceptable, that's why I'm doing something diferent (keep reading). So you see I'm working my ass off here, like 12 hours a day to solve all kinds of problem, I also spent over 4500 reais, that is the currency in my country, if converted to dollars it doesn't look much (USD$1285) but the way the economy is in my country think of it as 4500 dollars, that's a good comparision. I will have good blocks, even better, great blocks by the price I told you, soon (keep reading to find out when). So don't stop reading this thread (I think many people did) because I will have great stuff here, as I said I would.

I made one block of each design I showed you and to most people's surprise the one with the center inlet lost by more than 4 degrees celsius. I guess it's the split water path thing but I can't say for sure.

People from a good brazilian forum I've been posting for maybe a month now showed me some proof that decreased mass in a water block increases the performance because it will retain less "residual heat", or "balance heat", or whatever, it don't actually know the name for this but I guess you know whan I mean. I've seen some actual tests as a proof of this, with that in mind I decided to reduce the block until the channels are 1/2 (diameter x height /2), that is the diameter of the hoses so it should still restrict very little flow and leave much room for turbulency, descreasing mass and in theory improving performance, I can't say if they are working better or not because I have no reliable way to measure it, I guess the first person with a good way to measure temps that buys one will tell us.

I have 13 or 14 good blocks, the people who make my suctom hose fittings have delayed stuff, I'll have the hose fittings on monday and after that all that is left to do is the painting of the tops, I'm really hoping to have those for sale next week.

As I said before I've been having problems in the cast process, the problems are all related to the molds so I decided to start using a special steel mold with an "extractor" and all sort of fancy stuff (as big companies do to produce a large number of equal stuff) to cats the blocks, that eliminates any possibility of breaking molds, a little sand inside the copper as in the first blocks (previous batch, not this one). To balance (and increase even more I hope) the loss in performance of the smooth inside surface of the steel mold I will add some extra artifacts in the walls to increase surface area and turbulence, always restricting very little flow of course.

With this new method I'll be able to produce as much as 100 units a week, all of them will be "perfect". My expectations are these blocks will be among the best in terms of performance and finnish.

I hope I didn't forget anything...

Bruno Facca
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Unread 11-28-2002, 04:07 PM   #137
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You surely deserve a gold medal for persistence in doing something like casting those blocks! With so much little troubles, one doesn't know whether one big or many small ones are worse!
All I can say, dont worry about people not reading this thread, I surely didn't post much here, but read every new post that appeared. I'm sure that I'm not the only one.

Keep it up! (oh, and you know what people like, some pics !!!)

Cheers!
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Unread 11-28-2002, 05:54 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally posted by Puzzdre
people not reading this thread
Say, this is going to break the 10 000 hits barrier. Do you know anyone who's *not* reading it ...?

Bruno: when we've got nothing to say but drool and applause, we usually don't post
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Unread 11-28-2002, 09:11 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bruno Facca
I disappeared for almost a week because my distraction killed my XP 1600+, I took the water block I was testing out of the PC, went out to do some stuff, when I got back home I didn't remember the PC had no cooler installed, I turned it on and after a couple of seconds when I realized what I did, the processor was already dead, so I had to wait like 5 days for a new one. It's the second processor I loose this way if anyone knows a "cure for excess distraction" let me know, and before you ask, no, i'm not smoking weed.
Bruno Facca
UHHHH, I’ve done the same mistake! It feels horrible making goofy things you were very warned, and thought only happens to other people. To avoid “hitting the same stone”, now I always take out the CPU from the socket whenever taking off the cooler, if I’m not doing an instant replace.
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Unread 11-28-2002, 10:14 PM   #140
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Nice blocks

Pitty i started making mine a few weeks ago, or i would have brought one! (especially at that price!)

keep up the good work

edit: i like the second design

Last edited by jamicon; 11-29-2002 at 02:50 AM.
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Unread 11-29-2002, 12:45 AM   #141
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not to get off topic.. how are you manufacturing these. It appears that you used acid or mold forming? Does the rough sides make heat transfer more efficient?
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Unread 11-29-2002, 03:23 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by gmat
Say, this is going to break the 10 000 hits barrier. Do you know anyone who's *not* reading it ...?
I said this:
Quote:
dont worry about people not reading this thread, I surely didn't post much here, but read every new post that appeared. I'm sure that I'm not the only one.
not just this

Quote:
Originally posted by Puzzdre
people not reading this thread
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Unread 11-29-2002, 04:48 AM   #143
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In the good old days(BC) when life was Paradise(TM) life was easy, everything went how you planned and only the 'good thoughts' got through! . what the Hell happened I don't know!, but nowadays everything is a chore!, even the fun things drag out into one (unless you're loaded£$% and pay someone else!!), only the bad stuff seems to float, bad thoughts, worry and doubts are predominant, you have to be distracted to get through a day with your sanity!!(even if you don;t get through with your 1600+! )...

The fact that you have stuck to this speaks more than any amount of delays, delays are'nt intentional, you can't controll those, sticking at it IS intentional, and only you can control that!. Kudos!...



PS, sorry for waffling on, I just woke up! ...
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Unread 11-30-2002, 07:33 AM   #144
Bruno Facca
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I will post some pics as soon as I get some free time

Even not having reliable ways to measure temp the mother board diode can be used to tell an increase or descrease in temperature, still not precise but right now it's all I have. The new and smaller blocks with thinner walls actually performed worst than the big ones, so I did a project from scratch and the iron mold (I said steel but it has to be iron) is already being done, I will have it by mon or tue next week and the day after that I will cast some 50 blocks, it's a very fast and clean job using the iron mold, also, in theory the blocks will be absolutely flawless.

Those 13 blocks I was going to sell before selling the new ones (made with the iron mold) are not even going to be sold as they don't perform so good and the guy who was supposed to give them finish has left lots of "rounded" walls, that's why from now on finnish will be made with a milling machine and a special tool to make all the outside surfaces _very_ flat, if the bottom needs some more lapping I will use a 600 or 1200 sandpaper in the belt sander.

I'll post the specs for the new design soon (I'm working on a whitepaper that is needed for the patenting process) as soon as I finish it I will post it, the pin count has doubled or tripled from the photos you've seen, the pins are 4mm on the base and 3mm on the top, they go all the way up to the top of the block, they're arranged in a way that water constantly hits them instead of a straight line where water just hits the first one and passes around the other. Overall measurements are base: 55x50, top: 58x53, height is 15mm (this was calculated so the water has a minimum space of 1/2 to pass, all along the channel, the articacts were considered). There are also new, and more efficient artifacts in the side walls, lots of them. Even with all of that inside the block, the channels are wide and I was very careful not to restrict much flow, it will still be a very little flow restricting block.

I think this is going to be perfect

The blocks themsevles (not including the top will be ready almost for sure next week), I'll try to get the tops ready too until friday but that I really can't be sure, I can say that if nothing else goes wrong (and I don't see what could go wrong) I'll have a whole bunch of blocks in the week after next week. As soon as I sell some blocks (so I get some money) I will send blocks to the people I promised (for review), so hang in there.

@Puzzdre, gmat, jamicon: Thanks everyone for your words of encouragement, I was starting to think people were "giving up" on reading this thread.

@nicozeg: I'll start doing the same thing and my next MoBo will definitely have thermal protection! And you're right, it does feel horrible

@Winewood: I already explained the manufacturing process (casting) in this thread several times.

@MadDogMe: Sometimes I wonder what the hell happened with that too, sometimes things (many of them) that were "just for fun" become "things you have to do" over time, most of the time the "fun" just dissapears over time. Some people let thei problems (like me owing lots of money) get to them in a way they can't even sleep straight, If I were to do that I would be crazy by now.
Nice toughts on the delay thing

Thanks
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Unread 12-02-2002, 10:39 AM   #145
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I woke up today with a bad flu, fever, headache and all that.. So I didn't go make the iron mold, tomorrow (if I'm not worst, I hope not cause I took those "anti flu" drugs and stuff) I will do that , I hope all of my molding problems to be over

I promise it will worth the wait.

Thanks
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Unread 12-04-2002, 05:23 PM   #146
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hey, I haven't given up... just waiting for a final product to purchase

So... Bruno, are you saying that you are going to start casting for the 2nd design you came up with? That looks to be the best bet... what are holding methods going to be? Clip, 4bolt? If you go with 4bolt, I'd suggest you make one with the plate closest to the mobo... the ones that are higer up, leave much room for instability and possible non-core contact on the corners (caused but misaligned screw/bolt height) Argh that all sounds over-complex :/ Well good luck, BTW how much are the new blocks going to cost?

--V12
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Unread 12-04-2002, 05:51 PM   #147
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You know, I don't mean to criticize or anything, but...

You started this thread on July 25th, and you still don't have a product yet. You either have a lot of time on your hands, or not enough!

I think you should concentrate on getting a product out, while the market is still there. Your design time is too long. The Barton and Opteron/hammer will be out within 6 months to a year.
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Unread 12-04-2002, 06:42 PM   #148
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Whew! I thought you were talkin about me for a second...!

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Unread 12-04-2002, 07:30 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
You know, I don't mean to criticize or anything, but...

You started this thread on July 25th, and you still don't have a product yet. You either have a lot of time on your hands, or not enough!

I think you should concentrate on getting a product out, while the market is still there. Your design time is too long. The Barton and Opteron/hammer will be out within 6 months to a year.
5 months is a fair while - but probably fair in the world of machining depending on one's ability to access the equipment / size of wallet.

While we're talking about models of efficiency in turning design concepts into finished products, how's "The Radius" coming along ? Are you going to submit a block to BillA for testing? Same goes for Bruno.
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Unread 12-05-2002, 03:11 AM   #150
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Gee ben considering the pics of ones he's already made, I'd say he's doing OK, it's not like he's still on drawings...
and the changes he's making from a simple/cheap block to a better design/performance one, rather than throw out inferior products just to recoup his losses, I'd say is Laudable...

With the size block he's making, it can always be converted later, as long as the bodies not the same size as the existing mounting holes, is not wider than the socket lugs...
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