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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 12-18-2005, 04:00 PM   #576
BillA
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

contamination by association ?
will none of you guys grant anyone at all (other than the WCing god Cathar) a bit of intellectual/professional objectivity ?
you and Stew have hammered on me, now Roscal ? (sorry Scott, you are not qualified to do more than cast aspersions)
so you "don't know what to think about the review" ?
the phase "grasping at straws" comes to mind

you do seem quite committed eh ? (come hell or positive reports)
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Unread 12-18-2005, 04:22 PM   #577
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

I too am having thoughts of why are all these reviews showing equal or mildly different temps on such different engineering designs?! However... everyone knows there is more then one way to "build a better mousetrap" (didn't want to offend animal lovers, esp. feline lovers of which I am, with the common cliche').

I can also see why the Storm is better in some uses, the Apogee in others, with base and fluid flow characteristics. Maybe Stew's G7 (?) will rectify this with the "dual internal flow paths" design. Which reminds me, Stew has been quite quiet as of late?!

I am willing to beleive the tests as more keep coming out. And as I eluded, difernt means can have common results...
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Unread 12-18-2005, 04:56 PM   #578
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

There's a pattern to all these results, and I've only seen Roscal's review mention it:
the Storm is primarily designed for a concentrated high heat load. I happen to know that to be true, because that's what I was thinking of, when I originally presented the idea.

I'm starting to think that the heatloads with today's latest processors are past an apex of heat density and that as a result, the Storm design can actually have competitors.

But if the heat flux density rises again, I believe that Storm will make a comeback, without competition. It's hard to explain the logic behind why the blocks would perform differently under various heatloads (it shouldn't make a difference). Needs more analysis (which seems to evade us all, even with simulators).

In the meantime, Apogee stands as an equally performing block, at a lower price.

The only objection I have with the test, is once again with the placement of the temp probe; Roscal managed to slip it under the IHS, and got it to touch the core, but the temp measurement is still not inside (middle) of the heatflux. I believe that that's where the real measurement lies. I would like to see such a temp measurement taken.

This is a strange turn of events. I am looking forward to put Storm and Apogee against each other, under various conditions.
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Unread 12-18-2005, 05:03 PM   #579
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA
contamination by association ?
will none of you guys grant anyone at all (other than the WCing god Cathar) a bit of intellectual/professional objectivity ?
you and Stew have hammered on me, now Roscal ? (sorry Scott, you are not qualified to do more than cast aspersions)
so you "don't know what to think about the review" ?
the phase "grasping at straws" comes to mind

you do seem quite committed eh ? (come hell or positive reports)
No not at all. I have not hammered on you Bill. I just call it as I see it.
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Unread 12-18-2005, 05:22 PM   #580
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigben2k
......the Storm is primarily designed for a concentrated high heat load.......
If true, I suggest the design concept is faulty.
See models in attachments to POst 330 for Isoflux heat dies.
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Unread 12-18-2005, 05:42 PM   #581
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Just going over the review one more time, there's a big reminder that this is a kit test, not a block test.

So while the temps appear to be the same (or better for Apogee), the flowrates are different. In fact, the flow rates for Storm are (roughly) 60% less.

The review is correct; they perform (essentially) equally well, with the same pump/rad combo.

We're still going to have to wait for a block comparison.
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Unread 12-18-2005, 05:50 PM   #582
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

"We're still going to have to wait for a block comparison."
to determine the bench test winner ?
we are playing with ourselves when heads-up comparative testing has to be debated

propissants
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Unread 12-18-2005, 05:58 PM   #583
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

ppl not standing inline for you to tell them how it all is bill? is that the same as... "thay all picking on you"

quick blame "stew"

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Unread 12-18-2005, 06:29 PM   #584
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA

propissants
No entry found for propissants. Did you mean propionates? LMAO. I think you meant Pro-piss-ants?
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Unread 12-18-2005, 06:31 PM   #585
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Another excelent article from coolingmasters, but I have a few concerns.

While the IHS temp he measured is not as good as Tjunction, it is about as good as we are going to get on an IHS capped cpu in real world testing.

I'm assuming this was one of the P4's that were not indium soldered as it would be near impossible to place an thermocouple that accurately with the IHS still on.

What I find very odd though, is that the review did not do an IHS-Air comparison. Doing it myself I find (for 12v fan 1.74v) a delta of 13.8 for the apogee setup, and 15.3 for the storm setup. (EDIT: NVM, he did a air to water comparison which showed the deltas to be consistent so the IHS to water is just as useful to IHS to water)

The deltas are a bit strange if you ask me. the article states that the MCR-220 radiator doesnt get much of a gain from 1.55-1.9 gpm based off of Swiftechs own testing. With that information, the 1.5C gain in performance seems a bit odd. Also, based on Lee's testing, the Storm performs 2.9C better at 1.55gpm compared to the Apogee at 1.9gpm. Now I know the data is not comparable (IHS to no IHS and different test beds), it does show trends that are complete polar opposites.


Another interesting point is the inconsistency between IHS-water temps. for the Apogee setup, the difference between 1.74 and 1.4v with the 12v fan is lower than the 5volt fan setup (.2C less delta). Correct me if I'm wrong, but physics doesnt allow this to happen, does it?? For all fairness, the same thing is present on the Storm setup with a .1C delta drop. In any case I believe this shows something has gone a bit wacky with the test setup.


I should point out that I am continuing the Storm vs. Apogee discussion here, just conveying my thoughts on the test data that cooling-masters presented.

I should also state that I have the utmost respect for coolingmasters and have always found their watercooling articles to be some of the best around.
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Unread 12-19-2005, 04:26 PM   #586
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigben2k
But if the heat flux density rises again, I believe that Storm will make a comeback, without competition.
It has already done that... all you have to do is remove the IHS.
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Unread 12-19-2005, 08:24 PM   #587
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

I know this post is like a month old now but, I just had my first look at the Apogee today. Ya know looking at that Diamond Pattern Cut, I could almost take a bar of Silver, make a few X-cuts on my tablesaw, take the bar stock delrin i have lying around and drill,cut and sand something into shape and "Voila"!!!
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Unread 12-20-2005, 08:38 PM   #588
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

today i swapped out my Apogee for a Storm and temps came out exactly the same. I will without a doubt keep the Storm over the Apogee considering how well built it is. I knew my temps would prolly not change with the Storm, but it was worth it to grab one before they get even more difficult to find.
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Unread 12-20-2005, 08:53 PM   #589
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Yep, consistent with Roscal's review.

The flow rate drops by 40% because of the higher restriction of Storm, and performance evens out.
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Unread 12-20-2005, 10:10 PM   #590
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigben2k
Yep, consistent with Roscal's review.

The flow rate drops by 40% because of the higher restriction of Storm, and performance evens out.
Only when dealing with an IHS.

Difference in temps between the apogee and storm on my rig when I removed the IHS were on the order of 5c.
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Unread 12-20-2005, 11:47 PM   #591
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orkan
Difference in temps between the apogee and storm on my rig when I removed the IHS were on the order of 5c.
Which is consistent with Robotech's results.

The end result of IHS-bound CPU waterblock testing will be reverting to the use of old, coarse, clunky and cheap to make maze/channel/pin designs, purely because no one will be able to tell the difference.

I posit that we're already seeing the beginning of the end of true water-cooling technology advances. Why? Nobody can tell the difference any more on IHS CPU's, so why bother making anything truly better if no one can tell? Stick most any combination of waterblocks, old or new, on an IHS capped CPU testbed, and 10 different people will eventually say "everything is within 1C or so of the average of everything else - why bother?".

Numb and dumb. Enthusiasts lose. Mass market wins. Game over. Back to click'n'drool boredom for all of us.
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Unread 12-21-2005, 12:12 AM   #592
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

In the spirit of Joe...


I like drool.. Bring on the Apogee's!
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Unread 12-21-2005, 12:24 AM   #593
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

Cathar...

In my mind, your work will always hold the true enthusiasts attention. Those of us willing to remove our IHS for example, will generally reap the benefits over those that are un-willing.

As with past "advances" in technology. We will be forced to find a way to modify our hardware to suit what WE feel is the appropriate use. Manufacturers will always try to stop us. (locked multipliers anyone?)

In the end we always find a way to make it better than when it comes to us in the box.

We should not be discouraged. Rather content in knowing that the line that separates enthusiast from random computer monkeys, just became much more clear.
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Unread 12-22-2005, 03:33 PM   #594
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

I think the rule thats going to come down is this... Personal attacks are going to be considered "over the line" in the forums. I am getting quite a few PM's and emails complaining about the seemingly personal attack fest going on now. And how theres a handful of people still on topic but the heavy hitters are all worried about beating each other up in every thread like a playground brawl.

Disagreeing is fine, everyone does it. But From this point forward, at a point personal attacks will not be allowed in a discussion. I mean there are barbs here and there, but its pretty clear when the discussion devolves into just anger and emotion.

So... Cant we all just stop calling each other names and continue debating in a civilized manner?

Please read the announcement at the top of all the forum's now.
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Last edited by Joe; 12-22-2005 at 03:40 PM.
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Unread 12-23-2005, 11:52 AM   #595
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Default Re: Apogee from Swiftech...

OK because all of these threads have been bombed now with immature banter, I have made a new thread just for this IHS Vs TTV Vs Intel Vs AMD debate.

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=12572

Please read the rules in the first post, because I do believe there is good info here, and its very good to see different persoectives WITHOUT the name calling or assumptions.

The new thread is a sticky also.

Please keep this thread to strictly discussing around the topic of the apogee or swiftech. Even though it has like 500 posts in it about testing stuff
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