Suggestion about confronting Water Cooling sites.

jaydee · 03-18-2003, 10:44 AM

I would like to hear some input. I have a plan to put water cooling manufactuers on the spot light to get better details about their equipment and about them.

What I want to do is get a list of all the manufactuers that we can think of and then one by one posting a thread on each and pointing out the flaws of the sales pitch and the equipment. Then asking them to come and give us the info we demand. If we are satisfied with their answer then they can be put on a recommended list, if they do not respond or cannot backup anything they do then on the black list.

Being I have no money to move forward with my own projects it leaves me with sometime to do nothing. This would fill that void.

I would also like to do this BEFORE the Tawanese companies start flooding the market with cheap water cooling stuff as unregistered pointed out that maybe possible in another thread.

Your thoughts?

bigben2k · 03-18-2003, 10:59 AM

Right on.

Here are the manufacturers I know:

DangerDen

Geminicool

DTek
(they sell geminicool stuff, and collaborate on making some more, some may be completely on their own)

Swiftech

Now what's that other one pHaestus uses...

Otherwise, I think your efforts won't be taking seriously, if the comments are going to appear (and dissapear) in a forum thread. You might consider dedicating a webpage to this.

Since87 · 03-18-2003, 11:18 AM

Email address for Hardware Labs (manufacturer of Black Ice radiators)

Pritorian · 03-18-2003, 11:30 AM

BB2k.

Innovatek.de

Others are:

Astek/Vapochill
Koolance
CPUFX / Overclockershideout

Cant think of any more... now.....
But it looks to be a nice project

-P-

Blackeagle · 03-18-2003, 01:33 PM

Well I just read and posted to your thread about Neomoses block the Evolution. In short, I'd suggest not only seeing what we may think of a block without perhaps anyone here having used it, but go to resellers ratings to get some idea(s) of how those who have used it like it. Do need to keep in mind though that those unhappy are way more likly to post than those with a positive experiance. So a maker with a high rateing from past customers should be given some respect for that fact.

With that said,

OCPC although the Atlantis has been tested by BillA.

There are some good german sites for blocks, perhaps Gmat and others from Europe can help there.

jaydee · 03-18-2003, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackeagle
Well I just read and posted to your thread about Neomoses block the Evolution. In short, I'd suggest not only seeing what we may think of a block without perhaps anyone here having used it, but go to resellers ratings to get some idea(s) of how those who have used it like it. Do need to keep in mind though that those unhappy are way more likly to post than those with a positive experiance. So a maker with a high rateing from past customers should be given some respect for that fact.

With that said,

OCPC although the Atlantis has been tested by BillA.

There are some good german sites for blocks, perhaps Gmat and others from Europe can help there.

I posted a reply to you in that thread. Hope you didn't take it to harshly.

I really do not care what people that own it think of it. My whole idea of this thread is to make the manufactures to post relavant info to back up their claims. If one company says they have the greatest thing ever but do not have any evidence to support that then who is to really know. And the people that buy it on that info think to DO have the best but have nothing to compare it to so IMO their feedback is utterly useless.

Also I want people that are looking for water cooling equipment to have a place to find better and relavant information to base their decision off of OTHER than what other users said (they cannot properly test a block and if they are buying a block do not know how to properly judge the materials and craftmanship of said block) and other than what is on the manufactures website (they usually choose NOT to properly test their blocks).

theetruscan · 03-18-2003, 02:14 PM

I think that with most companies the situation should be approached a little more delicately than it was in NeoMoses's case, or there would be no chance for an impartial reply. Having read much of what he posted in the past, I understand why he was approached in that manner. Even so, a little restraint will be needed to get the manufacturers to work with us.

Anyway, better hurry, Corsair's solution comes out soon, GlobalWin's solution by mid-April and on and on.

jaydee · 03-18-2003, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theetruscan
I think that with most companies the situation should be approached a little more delicately than it was in NeoMoses's case, or there would be no chance for an impartial reply. Having read much of what he posted in the past, I understand why he was approached in that manner. Even so, a little restraint will be needed to get the manufacturers to work with us.

Anyway, better hurry, Corsair's solution comes out soon, GlobalWin's solution by mid-April and on and on.

Well I thought my opening post in that thread was pretty gentle except maybe the WW rip off part.

Where it went from there was still not that bad.
Non the less I am thinking about how to handle this and will get a hold of Joe later when I get home and get his input being this is his site. I may take the questions to be asked in an interview style and then maybe see if Joe wants to make a dedicated webpage for such with a link to a thread in the forums dedicated to that particlular manufacturer. That way the manufacturer doesn't have to view the flam fest and I can pull the valid questions out and add onto the webpage?

#Rotor · 03-18-2003, 05:17 PM

What? you mean to tell me all these damn big heatsink companies are going to come roll all over us... steal some of our brilliant ideas, and make millions on it, then turn around and sue us for stealing there patents...hmmm sounds about right to me....

I dono if you are going to get any cooperation from those big guys, They are not in it for the customers.... they are in it for the money, that's it. Nothing else counts.

come to think of it, it's probably already too late for any of us, that has something worth stealing.... they proly already snatched and packaged it with patent-pending stickers all printed and ready...

jaydee · 03-18-2003, 05:22 PM

OR would you all rather the manufacturer participate in the thread with the questions? That is the way I invisioned it, but have doubts people can handle that and not so sure the manufacturer will be able to participate as often as we post the questions.

Anyway not only do I want more links, but please also bring up any questions you have about those manufactuers. I will construct a list of question and post them here for you all to "screen" first so no one will be insulted.

jaydee · 03-18-2003, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by #Rotor
What? you mean to tell me all these damn big heatsink companies are going to come roll all over us... steal some of our brilliant ideas, and make millions on it, then turn around and sue us for stealing there patents...hmmm sounds about right to me....

I dono if you are going to get any cooperation from those big guys, They are not in it for the customers.... they are in it for the money, that's it. Nothing else counts.

come to think of it, it's probably already too late for any of us, that has something worth stealing.... they proly already snatched and packaged it with patent-pending stickers all printed and ready...

This is ecactly why I want to do this. If they refuse to answer then they are on the black list and not recommended to buy from and we all can do our part to send people that have questions about those manufacturers to the links about them.

I hear you though....

theetruscan · 03-18-2003, 05:35 PM

OK, here are a few questions.

There has been a lot of talk about Corrosion and cracking, re. Aluminum and Acrylic specifically. I would be curious to see if we could get responses like the one D-Tek gave a bit ago regarding these issues.

However, I know of corrosion issues on one commercial block only. That is the Silverprop Cyclone 5, which was humorously enough explicitly not waranteed against corrosion unless it caused an actual leak within 6 months. Likewise, the only cracking I have heard of on a professional block was on a DD maze 3 (and only one at that).

Also, with commercial blocks, Aesthetics are often a major concern, I would be curious to know what the priorities were with manufacturers, re. their blocks.

Additionally, most commercial blocks are (to my knowledge, especially with the big companies) released after significant amounts of testing. What flow rates, tubing diameters, and the like did these companies optimize their blocks for?

Finally, I think we should address warrantee issues. Some blocks, again the Silverprop, come with a warantee that makes me wonder if the manufacturer has any confidence in the quality of their product. Finding precise warantee information is often not easy. I think that addressing that issue should give an effective feel for how much confidence a manufacturer has in their own product.

jaydee · 03-18-2003, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theetruscan
OK, here are a few questions.

I would be curious to see if we could get responses like the one D-Tek gave a bit ago regarding these issues.

Do you have a reference to that? I must have missed it....

theetruscan · 03-18-2003, 05:55 PM

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...?threadid=6014

UnloadeD · 03-18-2003, 06:57 PM

Interesting idea. I think the Interview method would be best. Specially if you emailed them a list of questions. This would give them a chance to go find the actual answers rather than giving you the canned PR spiel. I really doubt you'll get much useful from them. Hopefully I'm wrong though.

peace.
unloaded

jaydee · 03-18-2003, 08:15 PM

I just sent Joe a PM to get his thoughts on the matter. I will get his approval before moving forward. I would rather this be a procooling project other than one of my own. I will certainly need assistance on equipment other than water blocks though as far as questions to ask. I do not know much about those items such as rads ect...

gmat · 03-19-2003, 04:36 AM

JD, good EU mfgers (who have shops) i know of, are:
Aquacomputer (CuPlex & TwinPlex series, AquaTube reservoir, i have some of their products):
http://www.aquacomputer.de/

OCPC UK (home of the Atlantis - owner is JessFM he's member of these forums):
http://overclockedpc.co.uk/

Innovatek (pHaestus' stuff):
http://innovatek.de/

Cooling Solutions (K4 waterblock, they have new blocks now):
http://www.cooling-solutions.de/

Low-noise
http://www.low-noise.de

And of course Zytrahus with his wonder Zytrablock (see the thread 'WB made in France' in Cooling News).

Now the ones i haven't been in relation with (try their 'wasserkhulung' section):
http://www.com-tra.de/
http://www.overclockingcard.de/
http://www.pc-cooling.de/

In the US there's also Cool Technica
http://www.cooltechnica.com/

Becooling
http://www.aquastealth.com/

OCH:
http://www.overclockershideout.com/

jaydee · 03-21-2003, 12:18 PM

No reply from Joe yet........

bigben2k · 03-21-2003, 12:31 PM

Well, there's still a lot of work to do on this side.

Could we have a recap of the sites?

We need a technical evaluation of all the products that we're going to ask questions about.

I would recommend that you (JD), select some people to form a "technical review" group. It doesn't have to be a detailed analysis, a la BillA, just some good practical questions.

Are we doing blocks only, or is this to include rads, kits, etc?

BTW, I need another rundown on the corrosion issue, again...

winewood · 03-21-2003, 01:06 PM

If I may. I noticed that criticism can be undirected and impossible to avoid for some of the manufacturers IF they choose to participate. Frankly they may deem it not worth their time to post or answer anything off thier own protected sites. I don't know if a case can be presented in a forum where anyone can post and make judgements whom NEVER used a manufacturer, or have ANY experience. SINCE, this must be informative (ie. their particiaption) there must be well defined ground rules.

They way to guarantee this, and not focus unfairly or in greater proportion to some manufacturers and not others, the people preparing this should identify a non-changing list of questions. These questions should be clearly stated, and they shouldn't be slanted for not answering questions OFF the stated page later on.

I think this will be highly risky and non-productive for manufacturers if there isnt a filter from people making statements without A) Fact. B) Proof of Purchase C) Having sought out the purchasing comany 1st in due dilligence. I am reminded of Maximum PC's page called the "dogpound" (I read it.. not memorize it

) which is a warning about manufacturers. Note that this group also posts retractions, and corrections on topics that have previously been addressed. This encourages the manufacuterers to address and deal in good faith, therefore letting them correct issues and improve customer focus. Old perceptions aren't locked in.

Remember, I already attempted to dig in on an article from [H]. They posted some 'customers' opinion and sent me their statement. I asked for their email to verify. They could not, nor would not do so in any effort to back claims against a company. The offended company had yet to open and stated it didn't have any customers. This unchecked libel, and ability to not back up statements made against a company set a dangerous atmosphere that any company would look to avoid. I basically did what I am asking the administrator to do over this project. Failure to do show will prove that the truth is not what we are interested in, but conjecture, and we have that in the forums.

If there is careful and responsible administration, I am sure that this idea would put Procooling as an even better forum than it is now. I look forward to getting the data from this for my own use. These are my opinions. However, if they are left ignored I suspect the entire idea will be a joke, and not taken seriously. I hope this helps Jaydee's WONDERFUL idea become as sucessful as he desires.

jag_e_fattig · 03-21-2003, 02:30 PM

chip-con makes the prometia (don't know if it's eligible (sp?) for the list

bigben2k · 03-21-2003, 02:46 PM

I don't think that this is headed towards reviewing other site's reviews, but definitely, a clearer direction needs to be defined.

If I can suggest, AMDMB forums have mobo manufacturer supported forums. Maybe we should focus our efforts towards getting the major manufacturers to take the time to answer user questions in dedicated forums right here.

jaydee · 03-21-2003, 04:24 PM

I will not be able to respond to this thread untill Sunday after noon as I will be out of town. Once I get back I will try and address some of the posts above. Maybe Joe will have gotten of his ass and checked the PM box by then aswell.

jaydee · 03-23-2003, 09:58 PM

Well I am out. Maybe someone better suited can take it on if Joe ever bothers to reply. I think it is a good way to pressure manufatures to step up ot step out. There are better people here than me to take this on, some responded in this very thread.

Fixittt · 03-23-2003, 10:18 PM

Its a great idea, if iot can be kept in a posative light. Anyone who has ever ran a buisness, knows that there is never enoguht time in the day to get dedacated tasks done. Much less, take hours and repley to something like this.

Now as far as a "BLACK LIST" goes, that is not a fiar way of doing things. "You didnt answer our questions so you much be making crap and we cant recomend it" I dont think "WE" are possable of going that low.

Now making a list, and stating that the manufacture was unable to attend, or something a bit more posative will be fine. But just because someone doenst answer the questions, what ever there reasoning, doenst mean they should be abolished. Would you do that sort of thing to Danger Den if they said they hadnt the time to partisapate? Damn my spelling is crap these days.

FIX

03-18-2003, 10:44 AM	#1
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Suggestion about confronting Water Cooling sites. I would like to hear some input. I have a plan to put water cooling manufactuers on the spot light to get better details about their equipment and about them. What I want to do is get a list of all the manufactuers that we can think of and then one by one posting a thread on each and pointing out the flaws of the sales pitch and the equipment. Then asking them to come and give us the info we demand. If we are satisfied with their answer then they can be put on a recommended list, if they do not respond or cannot backup anything they do then on the black list. Being I have no money to move forward with my own projects it leaves me with sometime to do nothing. This would fill that void. I would also like to do this BEFORE the Tawanese companies start flooding the market with cheap water cooling stuff as unregistered pointed out that maybe possible in another thread. Your thoughts?

03-18-2003, 10:59 AM	#2
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Right on. Here are the manufacturers I know: DangerDen Geminicool DTek (they sell geminicool stuff, and collaborate on making some more, some may be completely on their own) Swiftech Now what's that other one pHaestus uses... Otherwise, I think your efforts won't be taking seriously, if the comments are going to appear (and dissapear) in a forum thread. You might consider dedicating a webpage to this. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-18-2003, 11:30 AM	#4
Pritorian Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 201	BB2k. Innovatek.de Others are: Astek/Vapochill Koolance CPUFX / Overclockershideout Cant think of any more... now..... But it looks to be a nice project -P- __________________ Boo!

03-18-2003, 05:17 PM	#9
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	What? you mean to tell me all these damn big heatsink companies are going to come roll all over us... steal some of our brilliant ideas, and make millions on it, then turn around and sue us for stealing there patents...hmmm sounds about right to me.... I dono if you are going to get any cooperation from those big guys, They are not in it for the customers.... they are in it for the money, that's it. Nothing else counts. come to think of it, it's probably already too late for any of us, that has something worth stealing.... they proly already snatched and packaged it with patent-pending stickers all printed and ready... __________________ There is no Spoon....

03-21-2003, 12:31 PM	#19
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Well, there's still a lot of work to do on this side. Could we have a recap of the sites? We need a technical evaluation of all the products that we're going to ask questions about. I would recommend that you (JD), select some people to form a "technical review" group. It doesn't have to be a detailed analysis, a la BillA, just some good practical questions. Are we doing blocks only, or is this to include rads, kits, etc? BTW, I need another rundown on the corrosion issue, again... __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-18-2003, 11:18 AM	#3
Since87 Pro/Guru - Uber Mod Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 834	Email address for Hardware Labs (manufacturer of Black Ice radiators)

03-18-2003, 01:33 PM	#5
Blackeagle Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A = Michigan Posts: 1,243	Well I just read and posted to your thread about Neomoses block the Evolution. In short, I'd suggest not only seeing what we may think of a block without perhaps anyone here having used it, but go to resellers ratings to get some idea(s) of how those who have used it like it. Do need to keep in mind though that those unhappy are way more likly to post than those with a positive experiance. So a maker with a high rateing from past customers should be given some respect for that fact. With that said, OCPC although the Atlantis has been tested by BillA. There are some good german sites for blocks, perhaps Gmat and others from Europe can help there.

03-18-2003, 02:14 PM	#7
theetruscan Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: OR/CA/NY Posts: 81	I think that with most companies the situation should be approached a little more delicately than it was in NeoMoses's case, or there would be no chance for an impartial reply. Having read much of what he posted in the past, I understand why he was approached in that manner. Even so, a little restraint will be needed to get the manufacturers to work with us. Anyway, better hurry, Corsair's solution comes out soon, GlobalWin's solution by mid-April and on and on.

03-18-2003, 05:22 PM	#10
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	OR would you all rather the manufacturer participate in the thread with the questions? That is the way I invisioned it, but have doubts people can handle that and not so sure the manufacturer will be able to participate as often as we post the questions. Anyway not only do I want more links, but please also bring up any questions you have about those manufactuers. I will construct a list of question and post them here for you all to "screen" first so no one will be insulted.

03-18-2003, 05:35 PM	#12
theetruscan Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: OR/CA/NY Posts: 81	OK, here are a few questions. There has been a lot of talk about Corrosion and cracking, re. Aluminum and Acrylic specifically. I would be curious to see if we could get responses like the one D-Tek gave a bit ago regarding these issues. However, I know of corrosion issues on one commercial block only. That is the Silverprop Cyclone 5, which was humorously enough explicitly not waranteed against corrosion unless it caused an actual leak within 6 months. Likewise, the only cracking I have heard of on a professional block was on a DD maze 3 (and only one at that). Also, with commercial blocks, Aesthetics are often a major concern, I would be curious to know what the priorities were with manufacturers, re. their blocks. Additionally, most commercial blocks are (to my knowledge, especially with the big companies) released after significant amounts of testing. What flow rates, tubing diameters, and the like did these companies optimize their blocks for? Finally, I think we should address warrantee issues. Some blocks, again the Silverprop, come with a warantee that makes me wonder if the manufacturer has any confidence in the quality of their product. Finding precise warantee information is often not easy. I think that addressing that issue should give an effective feel for how much confidence a manufacturer has in their own product.

03-18-2003, 05:55 PM	#14
theetruscan Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: OR/CA/NY Posts: 81	http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...?threadid=6014

03-18-2003, 06:57 PM	#15
UnloadeD Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: MidWest USA Posts: 176	Interesting idea. I think the Interview method would be best. Specially if you emailed them a list of questions. This would give them a chance to go find the actual answers rather than giving you the canned PR spiel. I really doubt you'll get much useful from them. Hopefully I'm wrong though. peace. unloaded

03-18-2003, 08:15 PM	#16
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I just sent Joe a PM to get his thoughts on the matter. I will get his approval before moving forward. I would rather this be a procooling project other than one of my own. I will certainly need assistance on equipment other than water blocks though as far as questions to ask. I do not know much about those items such as rads ect...

03-19-2003, 04:36 AM	#17
gmat Thermophile Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: France Posts: 1,221	JD, good EU mfgers (who have shops) i know of, are: Aquacomputer (CuPlex & TwinPlex series, AquaTube reservoir, i have some of their products): http://www.aquacomputer.de/ OCPC UK (home of the Atlantis - owner is JessFM he's member of these forums): http://overclockedpc.co.uk/ Innovatek (pHaestus' stuff): http://innovatek.de/ Cooling Solutions (K4 waterblock, they have new blocks now): http://www.cooling-solutions.de/ Low-noise http://www.low-noise.de And of course Zytrahus with his wonder Zytrablock (see the thread 'WB made in France' in Cooling News). Now the ones i haven't been in relation with (try their 'wasserkhulung' section): http://www.com-tra.de/ http://www.overclockingcard.de/ http://www.pc-cooling.de/ In the US there's also Cool Technica http://www.cooltechnica.com/ Becooling http://www.aquastealth.com/ OCH: http://www.overclockershideout.com/

03-21-2003, 12:18 PM	#18
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	No reply from Joe yet........

03-21-2003, 01:06 PM	#20
winewood Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: in my chair Posts: 574	If I may. I noticed that criticism can be undirected and impossible to avoid for some of the manufacturers IF they choose to participate. Frankly they may deem it not worth their time to post or answer anything off thier own protected sites. I don't know if a case can be presented in a forum where anyone can post and make judgements whom NEVER used a manufacturer, or have ANY experience. SINCE, this must be informative (ie. their particiaption) there must be well defined ground rules. They way to guarantee this, and not focus unfairly or in greater proportion to some manufacturers and not others, the people preparing this should identify a non-changing list of questions. These questions should be clearly stated, and they shouldn't be slanted for not answering questions OFF the stated page later on. I think this will be highly risky and non-productive for manufacturers if there isnt a filter from people making statements without A) Fact. B) Proof of Purchase C) Having sought out the purchasing comany 1st in due dilligence. I am reminded of Maximum PC's page called the "dogpound" (I read it.. not memorize it ) which is a warning about manufacturers. Note that this group also posts retractions, and corrections on topics that have previously been addressed. This encourages the manufacuterers to address and deal in good faith, therefore letting them correct issues and improve customer focus. Old perceptions aren't locked in. Remember, I already attempted to dig in on an article from [H]. They posted some 'customers' opinion and sent me their statement. I asked for their email to verify. They could not, nor would not do so in any effort to back claims against a company. The offended company had yet to open and stated it didn't have any customers. This unchecked libel, and ability to not back up statements made against a company set a dangerous atmosphere that any company would look to avoid. I basically did what I am asking the administrator to do over this project. Failure to do show will prove that the truth is not what we are interested in, but conjecture, and we have that in the forums. If there is careful and responsible administration, I am sure that this idea would put Procooling as an even better forum than it is now. I look forward to getting the data from this for my own use. These are my opinions. However, if they are left ignored I suspect the entire idea will be a joke, and not taken seriously. I hope this helps Jaydee's WONDERFUL idea become as sucessful as he desires. __________________ -winewood-

03-21-2003, 02:30 PM	#21
jag_e_fattig Cooling Savant Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: SoCal, formerly Sweden. Posts: 110	chip-con makes the prometia (don't know if it's eligible (sp?) for the list __________________ Tearing it up AER - 05/29/87-10/26/03, I'll never forget.

03-21-2003, 02:46 PM	#22
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I don't think that this is headed towards reviewing other site's reviews, but definitely, a clearer direction needs to be defined. If I can suggest, AMDMB forums have mobo manufacturer supported forums. Maybe we should focus our efforts towards getting the major manufacturers to take the time to answer user questions in dedicated forums right here. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-21-2003, 04:24 PM	#23
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I will not be able to respond to this thread untill Sunday after noon as I will be out of town. Once I get back I will try and address some of the posts above. Maybe Joe will have gotten of his ass and checked the PM box by then aswell.

03-23-2003, 09:58 PM	#24
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Well I am out. Maybe someone better suited can take it on if Joe ever bothers to reply. I think it is a good way to pressure manufatures to step up ot step out. There are better people here than me to take this on, some responded in this very thread.

03-23-2003, 10:18 PM	#25
Fixittt CNC Beyatch Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tulsa Spell it backwards Posts: 721	Its a great idea, if iot can be kept in a posative light. Anyone who has ever ran a buisness, knows that there is never enoguht time in the day to get dedacated tasks done. Much less, take hours and repley to something like this. Now as far as a "BLACK LIST" goes, that is not a fiar way of doing things. "You didnt answer our questions so you much be making crap and we cant recomend it" I dont think "WE" are possable of going that low. Now making a list, and stating that the manufacture was unable to attend, or something a bit more posative will be fine. But just because someone doenst answer the questions, what ever there reasoning, doenst mean they should be abolished. Would you do that sort of thing to Danger Den if they said they hadnt the time to partisapate? Damn my spelling is crap these days. FIX __________________ Creator of the Spir@l Block Longest post ever http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=43808#post43808

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