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Xtreme Cooling LN2, Dry Ice, Peltiers, etc... All the usual suspects

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Unread 11-27-2005, 11:20 PM   #1
DNA
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Default Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

Consider the following.

Qmax = 226W
Vmax = 15.2V
Imax = 24A
Pmax = 364.8W

Qmax = 320W Th = 50C
Qmax = 243.5W Th = 26.8C
Vmax = 15.4V
Imax = 26A
Pmax = 400.4

If one believes the 226W and 320W related parameters above are factual and you compare the differences between the 226W and alleged 320W device, then for a 35.6W difference in input power you get a 94W maximum increase in cooling power from the 320W device.

How about this, for a 35.6W increase in input power you get an 18W maximum increase in cooling power from a 244W device.

Which scenario is believable?
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Unread 11-28-2005, 12:01 PM   #2
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

I don't see how anyone's going to get a 26.8 deg C temp differential (temp between the hot and cold sides); is there a magical recipe? An insane clamping pressure?
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Unread 11-28-2005, 04:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

I doubt that too and same for 320 watts and 50 C delta but these are theorectical values.

More important question is with only 30 more watts input over the 226 pelt will you 90 watt improvement seen in the 320 watt pelt.

IMO, NO! But I'm still learning about pelts

The bigger question is..... are people buying what they believe is 320 watt pelt when it's only 243 watts? Are people getting fooled into buying a 320 watt pelt that is vaguely stated to use about 320 watts but cools only 243 watts?
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Unread 11-29-2005, 11:31 PM   #4
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricecrispi
I doubt that too and same for 320 watts and 50 C delta but these are theorectical values.

More important question is with only 30 more watts input over the 226 pelt will you 90 watt improvement seen in the 320 watt pelt.

IMO, NO! But I'm still learning about pelts

The bigger question is..... are people buying what they believe is 320 watt pelt when it's only 243 watts? Are people getting fooled into buying a 320 watt pelt that is vaguely stated to use about 320 watts but cools only 243 watts?
Probably so unfortunately. I'll admit that I was one. But I'm still happy with the purchase since it's still the most powerful 50mm pelt out there.
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Unread 11-29-2005, 11:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricecrispi
I doubt that too and same for 320 watts and 50 C delta but these are theorectical values.

More important question is with only 30 more watts input over the 226 pelt will you 90 watt improvement seen in the 320 watt pelt.

IMO, NO! But I'm still learning about pelts

The bigger question is..... are people buying what they believe is 320 watt pelt when it's only 243 watts? Are people getting fooled into buying a 320 watt pelt that is vaguely stated to use about 320 watts but cools only 243 watts?

You know there is an article on the site breaking down how pelts work, curves, etc... . Check the articles area, RichW did it back in 2000 I think.
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Unread 11-29-2005, 11:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

Here it is

http://www.procooling.com/index.php?...ticles&disp=43
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Unread 12-02-2005, 11:30 PM   #7
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricecrispi
I doubt that too and same for 320 watts and 50 C delta but these are theorectical values.

More important question is with only 30 more watts input over the 226 pelt will you 90 watt improvement seen in the 320 watt pelt.

IMO, NO! But I'm still learning about pelts

The bigger question is..... are people buying what they believe is 320 watt pelt when it's only 243 watts? Are people getting fooled into buying a 320 watt pelt that is vaguely stated to use about 320 watts but cools only 243 watts?
I emailed Thermal Enterprises and posed the following question.
"Your ebay advertisement refers to the device as 245-320w. Your specs clearly state that the maximum Qc of the device is 243.5w . Why do you use the 320w reference in your advertisement? It's misleading to the public".

Their response was as follows.
"We simply follow the same common practice as most other TEC manufactures, we establish the watt rating of our devices under two different operating conditions. The lower wattage rating is established with hot side temperature at 27 deg C. The higher wattage rating is established with hot side temperature at 50 deg C".

After researching the peltier rating subject, I have to agree with Thermal Enterprises response. It is up to the end-user to determine which set of peltier parameters would be most applicable for their operating conditions.

In summary, when peltier maximum cooling power wattage ratings (Qcmax) are expressed by two values as is the case with Thermal Enterprises devices, the lower rating equates to a Th = 27C ambient condition and the higher rating to a Th = 50C. In any well planned CPU peltier/water-cooled system, the Qcmax that would be most representative of their system's cooling performance would be the vaule at Th = 27C.
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Unread 12-03-2005, 12:08 AM   #8
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

Thanks for the link Joe. I'm gonna read it and get the program.

UPDATE: I seen kryptherm before. Not the most user friendly and intuitive program but i'm getting a better handle on it this time.
Anyone know how to edit the module list or add new modules?


I brought up the fact orignally in Revivalist's post on his pelt setup. DNA made this post on it to resolve the issue. I was going to buy the 320 watt and realized in the charts not going to get 320 watts.

I learned how to read the tables sent to me from this link. http://overclockers.com/tips45/
Took a while to find good pelt info. I got a collection of links i got to catch up own over the winter

UPDATE: I asked Thermal Enterprise a while back if it was a 240 watt pelt and 320 watt pelt. Of course I said I didn't know a lot about pelts and I wanted to use it to cool my cpu. I asked for some advice and input. They told me go learn some more about pelts. Not bad advice. I asked for clarifications about the pelts after learning some more about pelts and they sent me a chart instead of answers. Maybe it was my approach?

Last edited by ricecrispi; 12-03-2005 at 02:55 AM.
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Unread 12-03-2005, 03:32 AM   #9
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

So, what hotside temp does the standard 226w peltier need for 226w Qmax? Anyone have a datasheet/know where one is?
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Unread 12-03-2005, 04:36 AM   #10
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeaselBlade
So, what hotside temp does the standard 226w peltier need for 226w Qmax? Anyone have a datasheet/know where one is?
Although I have not been able to confirm it, I believe the 226W rating is at a Th = 27C ambient. Its Pcmax value also supports that Qcmax rating.
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Unread 12-03-2005, 03:27 PM   #11
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

In general, most of the pelts WCing people see on DD or other sites are rated Qmax at ambient temps.

I'm not going to say Thermal Enterprise is decieving people. They have the info posted on the description but they are definitely not straightforward about clarify the issue and supplying a simple answer.....

The fact the fooled many people into believing it's a 320 watt pelt is a testiment to that.
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Unread 12-04-2005, 02:25 AM   #12
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8...attpelt7tz.jpg

This is what' i've learned.

Qc is 100W (should be 90 W)
Find the point were Qc @100W crosses various current rating lines at bottom of the graph.

Draw a vertical line up to the same current rate line above. This gives voltage the pelt draws to get that DT
for 12.3 V=Dt is 34 C
Cpu temp =Th- DT

TH = 25 C degrees (is the hot side of the pelt at Q total of 346 W. TH varies depending on how good your setup is)


25-34= -9 C

Last edited by ricecrispi; 12-04-2005 at 02:33 AM.
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Unread 12-04-2005, 03:04 AM   #13
DNA
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricecrispi
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8...attpelt7tz.jpg

This is what' i've learned.

Qc is 100W (should be 90 W)
Find the point were Qc @100W crosses various current rating lines at bottom of the graph.

Draw a vertical line up to the same current rate line above. This gives voltage the pelt draws to get that DT
for 12.3 V=Dt is 34 C
Cpu temp =Th- DT

TH = 25 C degrees (is the hot side of the pelt at Q total of 346 W. TH varies depending on how good your setup is)


25-34= -9 C
cpuT is not equal to Th - dT. Tc = Th - dT; Th is ~ equal to coolant temperature.

cpuT > Tc; under maximum thermal load, it may be greater by as much as 10°C to 20°C.

Th varies as a function of Ta, V, I, Q and RQ.

The hot side temperature (Th) will be equal to the ambient temperature (Ta) plus the rise in temperature across the heat sink from dissipating the heat load (Q) and the peltier input power (V x I) multiplied by the heat sink thermal resistance characteristics (RQ).

Th = Ta + (V x I + Q) RQ

RQ = thermal resistance of heat sink in C° temperature rise per Watt dissipated.
Using known values for Th, Ta, V, I, and Q, one can solve for RQ.

RQ = (Th - Ta)/(V x I +Q)

Last edited by DNA; 12-04-2005 at 04:57 PM.
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Unread 10-25-2008, 06:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

Hi Everyone,
Introducing a fizicsphosyl of seriously ancient proportions. Havn't yet read enough of your disscussion regarding the apparent anomoly.however there is a funcion of DELTA TEMP. to be considerred at the point of calculation. NO argument, just for consideration.
Thanks,Rob.
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Unread 10-26-2008, 05:11 PM   #15
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

Quote:
Originally Posted by fizicsphosyl'41 View Post
Hi Everyone,
Introducing a fizicsphosyl of seriously ancient proportions. Havn't yet read enough of your disscussion regarding the apparent anomoly.however there is a funcion of DELTA TEMP. to be considerred at the point of calculation. NO argument, just for consideration.
Thanks,Rob.

Hey! This thread is over three years old.
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Unread 10-26-2008, 05:27 PM   #16
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska View Post
Hey! This thread is over three years old.

Oh Yes!
Please forgive me!!!!

.......Laughed my 'freakin' head off for hours when WE realized it!! Red
Face!(Could freedrink on that one for a month.)
Go's nicely with my well matured age....'1941.
Thanks for the reply as well. shows someone is still alive there!
Regards,
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ball!)
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Unread 10-27-2008, 06:27 AM   #17
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

Quote:
Originally Posted by fizicsphosyl'41 View Post
Oh Yes!
This place used to be THE PLACE for cooling info. But. alas. that's all gone now, though it's still the best place in our galaxy for getting basic cooling information.

Check out these:Reviews and Articles
See also, Overclockers.com (watercooling)

And there is a peltier thread plodding along here
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Unread 10-27-2008, 01:51 PM   #18
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

Bill, thats amazing... you've managed to find overclockers.com without it looking like crap!! How long will this old site be up? I checked archives for days and couldn't find some articles from before the "upgrade", thank you for posting this link.
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Unread 10-27-2008, 04:37 PM   #19
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

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Originally Posted by ben333 View Post
Bill, thats amazing... you've managed to find overclockers.com
Without knowing what I was looking for I'd never have been able to find it. It was deep down in Google.
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Unread 03-08-2011, 11:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: Thermal Enterprises 245/320W Peltier

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