Johnson pump deal?

[satanicoo]

That means that, probably at 24 volts, this pump will overun a johnson pump right?

Waiting for you to get one... And gonna get one for me as long as the german guys answer me.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by satanicoo

That means that, probably at 24 volts, this pump will overun a johnson pump right?

Easily.

However, it is most likely not healthy to run it at 24V due to the heat the motor would put out. Generally that's how continuously rated long-life DC motors are made. They are way over-specced internally, and then run at a lower voltage so basically they are "idling" and not really stressed in relation to what they can handle. While the pump could handle 24V, it may not last for more than a year while doing so, if even that long.

My lab-bench PSU supplies up to 15V, and I figure that would probably a safe peak voltage to run the pump at full-time. At 15V, and assuming that it is indeed as good as specified (and being German made - that's a fairly safe assumption), it would still substantially out-perform the Johnson CM30P7-1, and still draw less power.

[rocketmanx]

You guys may think my questions a bit dumb but, I'm gonna ask em anyway

With you guys soending so much time researching pumps, why not save some time (which is money, unless you're unemployed) and just buy a pump that's a bit overkill and use a pressure bypass valve? This way you could throttle back the pressure to find the best psi for the system. We use fuel pumps on our race engines that will do 500 gph and we don't use anywhere close to that much, and only around 10 psi. We dothat by running a pressure regulator, or bypass, valve that returns the excess fuel tothe tank. I'm just wondering, with so much time being spent buying and testing, and researching pumps, why not just buy something like a Velocity 3 or a very high performance 12 volt and use a pressure regulator?

[Cathar]

rocketmanx, "excessive pump heat" is the answer to your question.

[rocketmanx]

So a Velocity T3 puts out more heat than say, 2 pumps in series? I thought the Velocities were desgined to be very cool running and quiet? I would also think a centrifugal pump with the impeller somewhat detached like the Jabsco would transfer less to the water than the others with the housing directly attached to the motor.

I was just looking at the US Laing site so I could read the specs but haven't found any 12 volt pumps. They German only? How many watts at that spec?

[Cathar]

The Velocity T3 is a 140W pump. "Cool running" by what comparable definiton? Quiet compared to what? Be very wary of vague marketing definitions.

I have the Iwaki MD30-RZ, and it's all that two dual-fan sized heater-cores and a car heater-core blower can do to keep a manageable lid on the heat that it adds to the water in comparison to the CPU, and it's an 80W rated pump in the same sort of design vein as the Velocity T3.

Besides, paying the power bill for a constant 140W power draw (on top of what the computer is drawing) will become fairly painful on the wallet after a while. Here in Australia we pay about 10c US per kWh. A 140W pump will cost ~$10/month to run, compared to a 14W pump that will cost $1/month.

[rocketmanx]

Cool running as opposed to other similar pumps I suppose, rather vague I know. But, how hot do all these pumps actually get at the impeller? Surely they can't all transfer a mojority of that energy to the water or the aquariums they are intended to work with would be overly hot. Of course I ahve no way of testing the temp of the impeller of these pumps and don't have the time or inclination to do so. But you guys seem to enjoy this testing that's why I ask those questions here
As for the power bill, I can full appreciate that, I live in one of the highest cost ares in the country next o the worst in CA. Although, I can't imagine that a 140 watt pump would be that bad when I ahve tons of 100 watt light bulbs going every day, not to mention a 55o watt psu. Guess I'd get spanked hard for leaving he lights on at your house at $10/mnth

Sorry if I seem a pain the arse but, if the rads you're using, car rad and all are having such a hard time with the heat why is everyone so focused on pumps?

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by rocketmanx

Sorry if I seem a pain the arse but, if the rads you're using, car rad and all are having such a hard time with the heat why is everyone so focused on pumps?

Why? Because the actual physical pumping work being done by the Iwaki MD30-RZ that I use is around 10W. The pump motor is sucking down around 60W to do that (even though it's rated at 80W, it does draw less), and the impeller shaft output is probably around 35W or so.

i.e. Given a 100% efficient pump, its possible to get Iwaki MD30-RZ performance for just 10W.

Clearly that's not going to happen any time, but it shows the scale of the vast amount of inefficiency that even a highly respected pump has in converting electrical energy into actual pumping power.

So basically the hunt continues for a pump that closes that inefficiency gap. A pump that will run pretty much every block and heater-core sized radiator that crosses its path well into the region of diminishing returns for either, but only dissipating as much heat as a pump that runs the same block/radiator at moderate efficiency points.

Heater-cores perform better with higher flow-rates. Blocks perform better with higher flow-rates. Given that CPU's when pushed really hard can dump up to a real 140W of heat into a loop, a very efficient pump can allow someone to use a decent heater-core and a good block, and what was once considered "diminishing returns" may now mean up to a 3C difference to CPU temperatures if the pump isn't becoming a significant source of added heat in its own right.

For example, it takes about 14W of real work to push 3GPM through a Cascade plus a good heater-core. I dream of a pump that would draw just 35W, add just 25W of that as heat to the water, and deliver that flow rate.

I see that blocks and heater-cores have come almost as far as is practical to take them. Very few gains here left. The two areas that I see the most potential for gain are pumps and thermal-pastes.

[rocketmanx]

So, cool running (relative to the Iwakis and the like) and efficient. Why not start water cooling pumps? Many are submersible.

My "why" was directed at the rads and when are the rads going to start to become the issue. But, cooler running pumps will help that.
Comes down to trying to eack out more performance from other areas then.

[Turbokeu]

Just got an answer from Dagmar Siegel, a nice lady and sales assistant at Laing Germany.

Ecocirc DC- pumps:
Electronical commutated direct-current pump with permanent magnet spherical motor; corrosion resistant; radio shielded; incl. connection cable (1000 mm).

Prices are exclusive 21% VAT taxes and shipping, valid till 31 of December 2004.
Inclusive packaging and manual.

Ecocirc D4-34/810N (article 60 00 042): 12V, Noryl body, 1/2" hosebarb connections: 187 Euro (about 235US$)

MW C (article 95 00 041): Mounting bracket for pump: 3.80 Euro (about 4.78US$)

F 72 (article 95 00 732): Spare rotor inclusive O-ring for D1, D2, D3, D4: 52 Euro (about 65.50US$)

Shipping fee up to 3kg, to Belgium: 9.30 Euro (about 11.71US$)

CD

PS: In the Excel pricelist sheet I got, the 12V Ecocirc pumps are rated for 4 to 24V (min/max voltage). The 24V models are rated for 12 to 30V.

Edit: Prices are for 1 piece, quantity prices on request.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Turbokeu

Ecocirc DC- pumps:
Electronical commutated direct-current pump with permanent magnet spherical motor; corrosion resistant; radio shielded; incl. connection cable (1000 mm).

Prices are exclusive 21% VAT taxes and shipping, valid till 31 of December 2004.
Inclusive packaging and manual.

Ecocirc D4-34/810N (article 60 00 042): 12V, Noryl body, 1/2" hosebarb connections: 187 Euro (about 235US$)

$95US each direct from Laing, USA for any of the Noryl D4 12V pump models.

$78US each in quantities of 250+

[Turbokeu]

Originally Posted by Cathar

$95US each direct from Laing, USA for any of the Noryl D4 12V pump models.

$78US each in quantities of 250+

How is that possible, pumps are manufactured in Germany (IIRC), and cost less in the US???

CD

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Turbokeu

How is that possible, pumps are manufactured in Germany (IIRC), and cost less in the US???

CD

:shrug:

Well I guess you now know where to go to get one.

[geoffman]

Originally Posted by Turbokeu

How is that possible, pumps are manufactured in Germany (IIRC), and cost less in the US???

Actually that's fairly common.

I use a number of control products in my line of work that are manufactured in my country of origin (Australia g'day ), the manufacturer exports them all over the world.
I (meaning my employer) purchases these items from the USA as he can get them cheaper from the USA than he can get them from the Australian manufacturer.

(Silly ain't it).

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by geoffman

Actually that's fairly common.

I use a number of control products in my line of work that are manufactured in my country of origin (Australia g'day ), the manufacturer exports them all over the world.
I (meaning my employer) purchases these items from the USA as he can get them cheaper from the USA than he can get them from the Australian manufacturer.

(Silly ain't it).

I think it's basically setting the price as to what each market will bear.

I typically get the "Australia is a small market" excuse over here for why items made in Australia cost more when bought from Australia than in the USA, or why some product made in China costs 2-3x as much in Australia as it does in the USA.

What they're really saying is that Australia is indeed a small market, small enough that it cannot support that many competing brands, so all too often monopolistic pricing structures will develop due to lack of competition.

Another thing that happens here too often is some company will get sole distributorship rights for some product. Take for example Eheim pumps. An Ehein 1250 over here can't be bought for less than about $130 US retail (incl 10% tax). The sole Australian distributor price for the Eheim 1250 is about $110 US (incl. 10% tax). In the USA DangerDen sells them for $68 US, retail. Monopolistic distrubutorships here in Australia milk the market for all they're worth. In the USA that sort of thing doesn't tend to happen because the market is so large. Distributors have a guaranteed market large enough that they can call Eheim in Germany directly and get factory discounts.

The Johnson CM30P7-1 is another one. Price here is ~$400US. Price in the USA is $150US.

Bah! /rant

[satanicoo]

187 euros?

Well, there goes my investment.

[Turbokeu]

Originally Posted by Cathar

:shrug:

Well I guess you now know where to go to get one.

What about the shipping costs?

In Belgium we have an import fee of about 10 Euro and 21% of VAT to add.
I'll have to make the balance...

CD

[satanicoo]

95$US = 75.6 Euros.

shipping should be around 20 Euros. So 95.6 Euros.
Still in my budject.

[nexxo]

Posted by Cathar:

I can tell you right now it's not a matter of "If". Figure on ~4000hrs of running time, or 6 months non-stop at best. Depends on how often you have it running for per day.

I won't be running it 24/7. With my usage pattern I'll get about 2-3 years out of it. I figure that replacing the brushes would be nigh-on impossible so I'm already looking at the MCP 600 as a replacement (I may polish the aluminium housing while I'm at it...), unless something better comes along in the meantime. Since it's impellor issue has been resolved, if I had to buy a pump now, the MCP 600 would be my prefered choice, but it was not available at the time...

[Maximilium]

i just finish last week my computer, when i get a better camara i will post some better pictures.

i have to say this pump works really great, still has a hummmmm noise ( i wanted something more quiet)

[nexxo]

Dude, is that the CM30P7-1? Same as mine. Nice flow indicator you got there, btw!

Interestingly I was originally going for the same sort of position/mounting of the pump in my case, but in the end due to space restrictions I came up with another.
Since you showed you yours, I'll show mine (in leak-testing stage):



Note that the straight-up mounting position cannot be used with the CO10P7-1 as it does not have a magnetic seal.

The pump makes a soft high-pitched noise; not bad, but I too would prefer something more quiet. It is very powerful, however; it creates vortices in the tubing, but that is probably also in part due to block design...





Since thes pics were taken, I have managed to get most of the air out. The water now runs clear and the vortices are nearly invisible as a result. The pump motor warms up to 33C max., not the 53C that has been specified by the manufacturer and found by others (it is running at 12V --I checked). I suspect it doesn't like to be constricted at the inlet.

Oh, and here's the (modified) Aquatube res:

[Maximilium]

Thanks Nexxo, i actually decided to go with this pump after you posted a very usefull post "project metaversa".

yes, this is the CM30P7-1

here is my picture when i was testing for leaks



after my first test i had problem, i am also using the acua tube reservor, the pump is so powerfull that it will suck the air back to the pump :shrug: , so i added a second 5 1/4 angel eye reservor, it actually solved the problem.

I also had the same problems with the vortices of water inside the tubing, i was making a 3/8 tubing system, ended up making some radical changes , everything now before the pump is 1/2 id, 3/8 id after the pump (and what you cant see in the pictures that i have is, i am using 4 micro black ice rads, 2 before the pump, and 2 after). i may post more pictures , i need to get a good camara first


Laterz, Max.

[nexxo]

Pimpin'! Great minds obviously think alike. I'd like to learn more about your PC. Got a project log?

[Fyber]

Very nice!

I think I may have to pick up one of the CM30P7-1 pumps. I'm worried about the problem with the brushes though. Most of the time I'll use my PC for about 4 or 5 hours during the week after school, and maybe about 14 or so non stop hours saturday and sunday, and holidays. I think I can deal with the pump lasting 1.5-2 years, because I'll likely replace it by then anyway.

What do you guys think? Should I wait for the brushless version Nexxo hinted about?

[nexxo]

I would go for the Davies-Craig pump that Cathar mentioned. It has about half the flow, but a very long lifespan of 15000+ hours. And given the insane ammount of flow the CM30P7-1 produces, I may try and throttle it down anyway because of the noise it makes. It's not loud, but I want as silent as possible. I run it on 5V which makes it effectively silent but then flow is insipid. I'll try somewhere around 8-9V (should increase lifespan a bit to boot). Thenagain, I may just replace the pump with a Davies-Craig in the long term.