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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 10-05-2004, 09:17 PM   #26
9mmCensor
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To me "low end" equates to practical.

A G4 and an Iwakai would be sick. But its not economically feasible, being in University. Books, beer, and tuition tax your meanial student paycheck.

So that means sacrifices have to be made.

First to go is: Preformance.
Buying the greatest is expensive, so save some cash and lower your cooling capacity.

Second is ease of use: Take some extra time, and effort and and make it cheaper. Ditch the kit with the fancy instrutions and high price tag, and slap together i DIY job.

Third is noise: Why bother with H2O if high noise is acceptable... you can just get high end air for cheaper. But you can acept a pump that makes abit of noise, or some fans that are ultra quite, for the sake of saving a few bucks, but no drastic cost reductions.

Reliability needs to be a priority.
Saving money is good, but if you buy a shoddy peice of crap, that wastes your system, and you cant do your school work, your borked.

Those are my thoughts, on why, someday (soon?) I will go the low end route.
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Unread 10-05-2004, 09:56 PM   #27
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Right, but discussions about performance, ease of use and reliability usually sort themselves out: the noise topic is something that we rarely tackle, as a primary subject.

I think we ought to simply call the Forum "Silent Cooling" (Run silent, run deep) and see how it pans out.

Otherwise we'd be looking at separating everything, starting with OC vs non-OC, then breaking it down into the same categories, and that's just not practical.
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Unread 10-05-2004, 10:12 PM   #28
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Wouldn't low end stuff be like giving up on being Big Players making Big Dollars?

Now that I'm set up with my budget stuff and have everything worked out, I have every intention of moving up and getting a Japanese Iwaki and getting more advanced, maybe a dual loop TEC setup.
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Unread 10-05-2004, 10:18 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmCensor
To me "low end" equates to practical.

A G4 and an Iwakai would be sick. But its not economically feasible, being in University. Books, beer, and tuition tax your meanial student paycheck.

So that means sacrifices have to be made.

First to go is: Preformance.
Buying the greatest is expensive, so save some cash and lower your cooling capacity.

Second is ease of use: Take some extra time, and effort and and make it cheaper. Ditch the kit with the fancy instrutions and high price tag, and slap together i DIY job.

Third is noise: Why bother with H2O if high noise is acceptable... you can just get high end air for cheaper. But you can acept a pump that makes abit of noise, or some fans that are ultra quite, for the sake of saving a few bucks, but no drastic cost reductions.

Reliability needs to be a priority.
Saving money is good, but if you buy a shoddy peice of crap, that wastes your system, and you cant do your school work, your borked.

Those are my thoughts, on why, someday (soon?) I will go the low end route.
I've always seen ease of use/looks as more of an economic stretch than performance and silence.

size, ease of use, and looks are typically what drive cost way up for watercooling systems.

performance and silence can be had with little extra cost. But boy do you sacrifice size, ease of use, and looks

for example, look at volenti's evap cooler

or a well-thought-out radbox, or swiftech's latest block (everyone complains that it's ugly)

...that is where the watercooling community is really split, where size, ease of use, and looks are of importance....to some they mean nothing, to some they mean everyting
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Unread 10-05-2004, 10:20 PM   #30
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I don't think we need a whole silent forum, but the people who use water cooling for silence is not insignificant.
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Unread 10-06-2004, 01:43 AM   #31
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I'm another gone to water cooling for quiet person. My priorities in designing a machine are quietness and bang for the buck. I overclock my machines, but I'm willing to give up that last 10% of performance to have a nearly silent machine. In my circle I have gotten a lot of requests to build somebody a quiet machine, or to recommend components to do that. In the last 5 years I don't think anybody has asked me to make them the fastest machine possible, it's always a fast and quiet machine. Don't underestimate the number of people interested in having a quiet machine.
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Unread 10-06-2004, 02:33 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
prb123
did you read the post preceeding yours ?
did you understand its meaning ?
as in zero OC ?
if no OC, performance is meaningless - it will do what it was binned for by the mfgr

no tutorial here, just people posting
Ahh, but I think performance is important even for a low noise system. If all I was after was low noise, I could get an XP-120 and a Panaflo 120 L1A @ 5V and be done with it for less money than the cheapest watercooled rig.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.
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Unread 10-06-2004, 07:12 AM   #33
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Bug the mfgrs as to what happened with the kit testing. Pug never sent anything to me so I never really followed up on it.
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Unread 10-06-2004, 07:55 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DryFire
You kind of need to define low noise. For someone who's used to some tornados or deltas just about any other fan is quiet. On the other hand people who are used to a Zalman 7000 most fans at 12v are rather loud.

So is low noise <30dba? <25dba? <20dba? etc...

i consider my computer too loud and the loudest thing is a suspended WD drive.

I don't know about everyone else but i look for silence, preformance, cost and how long i can use the current cooling setup. I could probably keep my pump, heater core and maybe evenmy water block for a rather long time.
I think a low noise category would simply include anything where noise affects a design decision.
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Unread 10-06-2004, 09:36 AM   #35
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now I regret bringing this up, at least with the appellation "low end"

not worth fighting that phrase over and over

someone else can carry this topic if interested

aaronspink
yes, as one 'moves' in different directions the thermal solution is different
- just what these topics would have illustrated

is this procooling ?
or just watercooling ?
you guys limit yourselves
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Unread 10-06-2004, 10:28 AM   #36
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My 2 cents.
No need for seperate forum. No need for "low end" here. Everyone makes compromises. Procooling members value performance over everything else (well, most of us, right?). There are plenty of other sites that dedicate to "silence", "low end", looks, etc...

Although for entertainment purposes it'd be fun to see "blingcooling" or "underclockcooling" sections...
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Unread 10-06-2004, 12:06 PM   #37
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Default I think we're already where we need to be

I'd suggest that this forum has already "moved" to the point that low noise, low cost, and low space issues are already mainstream.
In one of my early posts, I mentioned that, for a low noise fan, a BI Pro II made better sense than a (same frontal area but thicker) BI Xtreme II - and basically got handed my head for suggesting something that ran contrary to the then-current high-performance-only thinking.
Things are pretty different now. If I mention that I'm interested in low noise, even at the expense of o/c performance, folks here understand where I'm coming from.
So... a year ago I'd have been hot for a separate forum - now I think it's either unnecessary or maybe even counter-productive (in the sense that some members might read/post in one forum and we'd lose cross-polenization of information and ideas).
That said, if there was a "low performance" (or whatever non-pejorative term we come up with) forum, I'd certainly read, and contribute if I thought I had anything of merit to say.
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Unread 10-06-2004, 12:32 PM   #38
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I see, not much here but a few other places, a good amount of people post about silent solutions, zalmans etc, and they get shot down because most people on those forums have low temps in mind and see something like the zalman as a rip off(as do I).
Im definitely not defending the zalman buyers and obsessers, they just have one of the variables that someone posted about before a little higher than most of us do.
Yeah I want lowest possible temps but noise, performance, practicality, and price all out weigh one another at some point in time.

To those who dont care about practicality that guy with those two giant radiators on a 12" diameter blower over at overclockers.com forums has extreme/highend/"pro" cooling. But to those who want something that can fit in their case that guy's solution is not even on the map.

To those who dont care about noise a 600cfm blower over pretty much anything is highend. But to zalman freaks thats like nails on a chalk board.

etc etc

Atleast in my mind high end doesnt mean absolute lowest temps all the time.

I could buy a HC and put some loud blower on it and get awesome temps. But Id rather get multiple HCs or some very large radiator and have really slow fans on it and get the same temps as one HC and a single blower. True Im not getting the the lowest temps possible as I could get more powerful fans or even a blower or two but that doesnt make my system any less "high end" than its louder counterpart.

Id say around half of the people at a lot of water cooling/highly technical forums have priorities like so:
low temps
practicality
price
noise

Just because someone holds those in a different order doesnt mean we should shit on the little guy.

I guess my def. of "procooling" is working hard and smart on something, putting a large amount of technical knowledge accumulated from communities, like this one, and getting the best solution possible.
No matter how I hold those priorities, well except price as I dont have $ to burn, my solutions will always need a lot of consulting so I always consider them high end.

just my 2c
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Unread 10-06-2004, 02:00 PM   #39
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Making something small or compact doesn´t mean you're lunatic.

Take the example of the Austin Mini (for those who know it). It managed to unite all the commonly characteristics of a automobile and provided a solution that turned out to be a sales record, solding more units than some luxury or sports cars at the time.
Later it added more powerful motors (Cooper) but the concept remained the same.

Is something along this lines feasible in WC? Is this the right way?

Having a section for this kind of concepts, can have some uselfullness, ie, to "watch" the trend of the market, and how users interpret the various choices and separate them in order to have a buying decision.

The thing is: do these "low budget" systems sell more = have a better acceptance, than the "high budget" ones?
If they're in someways inefficient, what do they offer to the user that it's rival doesn´t?

What could be done to improve such systems maintaining the same project constraints?

EDIT: I didn´t want to use the words "low end", so I replaced for "low budget".
It still isn´t the appropriate, but there it is.
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Unread 10-06-2004, 03:25 PM   #40
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Bill, I like your idea. It seems like you're suggesting a shift in thinking in
the Procooling community. While many of the members are concerned with maximum
performance, there are also those who are more interested in minimal cost, low
noise, and doing it themself.

Maybe they need a section, too. A place where the users can discuss their
setups with an emphasis on acceptable but not top-of-the-line performance.


Quote:
9mmCensor Writes:
To me "low end" equates to practical.
I agree. 'Low End' doesn't sound quite right, though. How about calling it Mid Range Cooling?

If it becomes popular, I'm going to sell 1/4" tubing and get rich!
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Unread 10-06-2004, 03:40 PM   #41
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procooling, IMnotHO, should encompass all types of thermal solutions

max performance is but one pole, why not understand how they interact ?
-> done w/o flaming, we could have a vastly greater audience - and participation

instead of system design criteria, which is merely how I solve problems, there could be cooling methodologies
we have this now with air, TECs, water - but it does not function too well
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Unread 10-06-2004, 04:35 PM   #42
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From the standpoint of a manufacturer of any goods, the most total profit potential might not be from the high end product. This would imply an interest in low or mid range products, which may mean some very interesting discussions from the professional cooling community.


Quote:
unregistered Writes:
done w/o flaming, we could have a vastly greater audience - and participation
Yes, not an easy request, but I have faith in the members to exercise restraint. As long as any performance claims were subject to careful scrutiny.
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Unread 10-06-2004, 05:29 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
is this procooling ?
Yes this is procooling.

Cooling we can agree on, but what is "pro".

Pro - professional
pro is an attitude and a method, not a wad of cash or the lattest gear.
Pro to me is using knowledge to the max. So whether your pushing the boundaries of a homemade dremel block or a G5, your still pro.



Who is more of the pro.

The kid who buys a ferrari?
or the dude that rebuilds his old junker, and makes it run again, reliably?
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Unread 10-06-2004, 05:39 PM   #44
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Argh, not more car analogies. They just don't work.

But why bother with a Silent or Low Noise section at all? All you need to do to make a low noise system is buy quieter fans and a thinner rad. Or go with a bong setup. That's about all there is to it.
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Unread 10-06-2004, 05:55 PM   #45
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I'm just going to hop in and say that more knowledge, more testing, and more experiences only help us as a community.

It'd be nice to have a silent/quiet area just to help group the various other posts and make it easier to sift through.

Slightly off-topic, it would be nice to start having research goals. There are lots of questions and loads of opinions but very little real data is presented (with some exceptions.)
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Unread 10-07-2004, 01:47 AM   #46
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The reason the zalman solution got shut down, was because of the attitude of the original poster mainly. He was a bit of a worry, to be honest. Stubborn, opinionated, unable to see the other side, etc etc

Procooling means, imo, talk straight, find the best solution, research (outside or inside the standard cooling square) and share results. Its not a standard 'what should i buy' or 'how come this isnt working' or 'has anyone tried xxx product' forum. Questions dont get repeated that often, due to the low traffic.

I fail to see why a seperate section is needed for it. If keeping something at stock speed cool is the aim, aircooling does that pretty well, and cheaper (as said).

As for balancing the 4 major criteria (price, performance, noise level, space requirements), that can be done in the sections we have here.

What stops you getting the best performance?
The other criteria, of course. That, and a lack of research, or whatever.

compromise for other components shouldnt be called 'low end cooling'; its compromised cooling (be it silent/quiet cooling, budget cooling, or space restricted cooling). Doesnt make it low end.
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Unread 10-07-2004, 08:10 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigben2k
I think we ought to simply call the Forum "Silent Cooling" (Run silent, run deep) and see how it pans out.
This might actually be good - particularly if some of us who are also members at
the silent PC review forums mention it over there. There's a lot of information about silent cooling (as well as silent everything else) over there, but it's not the same climate as procooling - so statements that (at least to me) seem incorrect go unchallenged... which makes the rest of the otherwise interesting information somewhat suspect
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Unread 10-07-2004, 08:53 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkoure
...but it's not the same climate as procooling - so statements that (at least to me) seem incorrect go unchallenged... which makes the rest of the otherwise interesting information somewhat suspect
The dangers of a larger audience. Are we sure that's what we want here?
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Unread 10-07-2004, 02:25 PM   #49
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and risk dropping our net-clue?

This forum is like beer for the brain - it just kills of the weak brain cells/forum members and the stronger ones just continue.
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Unread 10-07-2004, 02:33 PM   #50
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problem is we've killed/driven off some very good ones too
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