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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 09-22-2002, 05:50 AM   #76
Pinkster
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btw i found a block on ocau looks very nice, and performs pretty well too. gets about 10Mhz higher that a cyclone 5, which in turn gets about 30/40Mhz higher than a maze 3 on an xp at 2.0-2.2volts at just above 2 ghz

get an ocau account, its worth doing there are some people on there that really know their stuff, such as volenti's new evaporative (bong) cooler, then check the thread out:
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...5&pagenumber=1





go to the thread for more info

edit: seems like cathar created his own thread here... check it out...
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Unread 09-26-2002, 04:11 PM   #77
Bruno Facca
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Sorry for taking so long to update you. 7 out of 9 blocks are done with the "heavy machining" part (yes it took me all this time). As I said the original model absorbed humidity from the molding material so the blocks got 1mm bigger (wider) on one side, that means if I had put together the pieces of those tools I'm making to "automate" the machining process they would be irregular and wouldn't work for the next batch of blocks. In short I'm having to machine all the 9 blocks by hand, again . That's why Í'm taking so much time. I expect to be done with the heavy machining by tomorrow, then it's the thin sandpaper and polishing them up.
I decided not to cast the tops, instead I'll just buy some flat copper bars and make them the exact size of the block, so the ACS logo will be painted instead of extruded, it will look very cool. That should make the production quicker and easier.
Some of you are probably wondering "how the hell is this guy planning on selling these blocks if it takes so long to make just a few of them?". The answer to that is, once I get things going (the tools are ready, I got the hole references and this kind of stuff) production should be fast, around 16 blocks a week in the beginning climbing to +- 40 blocks a week after a few months.
I forgot to mention the blocks will be cleaned using a *big ass* jacuzzi pump driving a very powerful and thin water jet. Sand blasting is not an option right now and I got this pump lying around so...
I also got myself 2 very thick (read strong) 120mm 220V fans for my radiator (wich is already very good) and a 316GPH pump wich should also contribute in a high performance testing rig for the blocks so I can get the best out of them.

@Pinkster: Thanks for the info, that is indeed a good forum.

Thank you
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Unread 09-30-2002, 12:28 PM   #78
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First of all I'd like everyone that read is reading this to post their opinion on this:
Is it important for you that the block is polished (looks like a mirror) on the sides or will you be satisfied if it's not polished but it's really smooth as in you can't see a single scratch from the machining (a very very thin sandpaper would be used)?
Please give your opinion as this is very important.

Good news are I got myself a belt sander, that should help the machining process _a lot_.

Here are some work in progress pics:
Before you ask about the top thickness, it's 6mm, I know thats too thick (it will be 4mm in the final relase) but it was the only kind of copper bar I could get without having to order tons of it. Anyway it's not that heavy. Well here they are:



They look "brownish" and uneven because I work with water most of the time to cool them down while they're being machined so they are a little oxidized, of course that's not how they going to be (a thin sandpaper and they're new). They are already very flat and quite smooth, they will be even more as they're not finished yet. You can't see much detail in one of the pics so I also took a close up pic of one of those blocks, this is how they look so far.

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Unread 10-04-2002, 09:34 PM   #79
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Before posting any more pics I want to know if there are still people reading this thread, cause if no one is reading it anymore there's no reason for me to keep posting updates here...

It took me more time than I imagined to drill all the holes for screws and hose fittings because (besides copper being a bitch to drill) as I said before this batch of blocks are all 1 or 2mm wider on one side so it's hard to measure and determine the exact places for the holes in a irregular piece, also I got a cut in my hand from a top that "grabbed" the driller and started spinning like crazy, to avoid that and make the drilling process a lot faster I'm putting together something that will hold the tops (and the blocks) in the right spot in the table top driller.

I should have the C/W numbers in the next couple of days.

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Unread 10-04-2002, 10:15 PM   #80
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Well Bruno, if you look at the previous page, you'll find that this thread has been viewed 5'520 times. That's pretty good around here, you're in the top 1% of all threads.

Keep up the good work!
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Unread 10-05-2002, 03:43 AM   #81
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People don't always reply to stuff they read, I know I don't . Keep it up Bruno, it's easy to get disheartened at an early stage, you got this far, so keep it coming.

PS, the finish does'nt mean jack to me. it will soon tarnish anyway unless it's laquered, so keep it smooth but not mirrored ...
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Unread 10-06-2002, 12:15 AM   #82
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@bigben2k and MadDogMe: Thanks

BENCHMARK RESULTS:

AMD Athlon XP 1700+ at 1467 MHz (stock speed), Vcore=1,76V, the following temperatures are taken when running at full load non stop for 4 hours:
All temps were taken from the mother board's thermal sensors so they may be reported highet than they actu ally are, for more info please read this: http://www.swiftnets.com/troubleshooting.htm
Heat dissipation is 64.7 Watts for the processor and (*IMPORTANT*) my 1200 Liters/h pump is rated at 12 Watts, I don't know how much of that is converted into heat, I will make it 6 Watts for the calculations, let me know what you think about this.
CPU temp: 37ºC
Case temp: 32ºC

We have a Cº/W ratio of 0,11!

Please let me know if you think any benchmarking methods I just described can be improved for more accuracy.

So what you think?

Thanks
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Unread 10-06-2002, 01:23 AM   #83
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Why do people always insist on quoting the case temperature as if it were the radiator air intake temperature?
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Unread 10-06-2002, 01:20 PM   #84
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@Cathar: No need to say it like that. And maybe some people do that because thei rads are inside their cases (not my case).

@everyone:
In fact, I should have measured the radiator air intake temp and the water temp and at the reservoir before turning the rig on instead of case temp, my mistake, tonight I'll post the new numbers and a test of another version of the block I have here.

You wanted detail, I'll give you even what you didn't want to know

PC specs:
AMD Athlon XP 1700+ at stock speed and Vcore
Soyo Dragon +
256mb DDR
2x Samsung 40GB 5200RPM in RAID mode 0
Geforce 2 MX 400 w/ TV out
Pixelview TV/video capture card
LG DVD ROM 16x
Samsung CD-R 8x4x32

Water cooling system specs:
Atman 1200 pump
Aluminium radiator with parallel flat tubing (not in the market)
2x 120mm 220V fans
1/2 tubing
pump - block - rad config


Here are some pics of the test rig, I didn't want to take those because the block I'm using has absolutely no finish so it looks very bad. Of course the ones for sale won't look anything like this. Also the soldering (for the hose fittings) is ugly because I was experimenting a new soldering method on this one.




Before you ask, the black box in the rad is the fan's speed control so I can make it silent when I'm going to sleep with the PC on or watch a DVD.


Thanks
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Unread 10-06-2002, 06:51 PM   #85
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Looks abit like my setup, sprawled all across the desktop! . Viva the day I can afford some silicone tubing and an incase rad!,(twin parralel The Deeps!, Hmmm!) damn heatercores bigger than my 'sweet~jar reservoir', barely fits on my table, let alone in my case!!...
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Unread 10-08-2002, 12:20 AM   #86
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I'm sorry about not posting the results last night as I told you I would. I decided to make a digital thermometer this afternoon, so I can get accurate measurements for water temp and room temp, the damn thing wouldn't work so it took me all night to troubleshoot it, now it's working and calibrated.
About the CPU I'll figure a way to use the processor internal thermistor, either by modding my mother board or attaching a circuit that can read from it, it shouldn't be too hard..

@MadDogMe: I kind of like it that way, I like to see the water running and also keep as little water inside my case as possible so the rad and reservoir stays out, of course I will have to organize it better..

Thanks
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Unread 10-08-2002, 10:19 PM   #87
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I'd like your opinion on some temperature reading methods I will describe, I know none of them is very reliable but that's all I could think of, any new ideas are welcome.

I was looking into building a SMBUS interface using the maxim 6557 IC or similar but they're not available in the city where I live. I also couldn't find *any* digital thermometers other than those used to measure fever . So far I can only think of a few, not so good alternatives to the original mother board (socket) thermistor:

- If the thermal diode inside the palomino's core is similar to the one in the mobo I could just rewire the mother board so it reads from the internal diode, but I don't know the specs for the mother board diode and looks like that would be to easy to actually work, what you think?

- I didn't looked at it yet but most mother boards have an area in the inside of the socket that has no copper tracks, components or anything, if a reading from below the core (a temp sensor touching the bottom of the processor) is reliable I'll make a hole in the mother board for the wires and put a temp sensor in there there

- A thin (but wide) copper "bar" that goes below the water block, touching the core, having a temp sensor soldered in the other side (right below the water block) insulated from the water block with, well, something... My temp sensors don't fit between the block and the core.

- As suggested, just pointing a fan at the socket to improve heat convection (or is that irradiation? can't remember) from the CPU to the mother board thermal diode, after all they were designed to work with some air turbulence around them and they calculate the temp predicting air movement caused by a heatsink and not water cooling.

That thermometer I made for measuring water temp is fluctuating a bit (just like 1 degree), probably because of electrical noise so I'm re doing in, this time with better grounding in the PCB and all shielded cables, if anyone is interested in making one of these for yourself it's based on the IC 7107, just ask and I'll post a link to the schematics.

Thanks
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Unread 10-09-2002, 03:46 AM   #88
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Quote:
- I didn't looked at it yet but most mother boards have an area in the inside of the socket that has no copper tracks, components or anything, if a reading from below the core (a temp sensor touching the bottom of the processor) is reliable I'll make a hole in the mother board for the wires and put a temp sensor in there there
UHOH, mobos are multilayerd (I read somewhere that they have 4 layers or more) so drilling a spot that looks like it don't have the tracks may result in killing the mobo...

I would scratch that option...
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Unread 10-09-2002, 04:26 AM   #89
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Get a DigiDoc5?, they have a flat thermistor with them that would fit between the block & socket to touch the core edge. getting a precise reading is damn near impossible anyways, totaly damn impossible with a socket thermistor ...

between the socket and a Digidoc you'd know you're somewhere in the ballpark though ...
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Unread 10-09-2002, 03:11 PM   #90
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Bruno,
I'm new here and just learning, but I wanted you to know I read every post in this thread this morning and enjoyed seeing your project get so far. It was a great read!

Cheers,
Mark
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Unread 10-09-2002, 04:13 PM   #91
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For the SMBUS reader you can order the chip @ radiospares, farnell or any other mail-order electronic retailer.
The internal diode is not perfect at all, but if you calibrate it you'll have a good precision. I do not know a way of reading the diode without having the CPU running though, so calibration may be tricky. I may be wrong on that one, if someone knows better please tell us.

Forget about drilling a hole in your mobo. They are all multi-layered, IIRC DDR ram requires 8 layers at least.

Pointing an airflow at a temp diode doesn't sound as a good idea... Air flow is chaotic, and it will throw off your readings.

Keep up the good job.
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Unread 10-10-2002, 08:15 PM   #92
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Please take your time to read the whole post, I need help with some issues and I would appreciate any information on these subjects very much.

Thanks for the warning, I tought it was only top and bottom layers.

In the city where I live I can't get any kind of thermal sensors, no thermistors, thermocouples, thermal diodes, nothing! I got a flat thermistor (very thin) from an old slot A motherboard, I couldn't find any specs for it so I did some testing, here is the result:
Temperature in celsius - resistance in Kohms
0 C - 29.1 K
36.5 C (body temp) - 6.95 K
100 C - 1.05 K

If anyone can help me identify/use it or has a schematic for a circuit that reads from this and converts the resistance to temperature (no PICs) it would be great.

I took my processor off and looked at the "inside"of the socket, there is no thermal sensor in there like I see in some other boards, there's just a bunch of surface mount resistors and a couple of very tiny 8 pin ICs, I assumed these were not temp sensing IC's because they're close to the borders of the socket instead of in the middle and the motherboard has more of these than I can count. Does that mean my mother board reads from the internal diode (I don't think so but I can't think of something else to explain the lack of a temp sensor in there)? I have a Soyo Dragon +.

The only idea I have left is getting one of those digital thermometers used to measure fever, take it apart, put a long wire in the thermistor and use it, after all my CPU temp at full load (measured by the mother board diode or whathever the hell there is in there is 37C) is almost the same as body temp . Any other ideas for temp measurement are also welcome.

Now changing subjects, the copper from the blocks didn't "like" the laque at all, it didn't "catch on" so there will be no laque, if you don't touch the block with your bare hands (we have fat and acid in our hands) it should be a long time without getting darker..

I have some pics of the finished blocks and tops, that are now painted, I know there are some dust spots in the painting but as I told you before, this is beta, it was applied 3 layers of base paint, 2 layers of the gray paint and 2 layers of laque to protect the painting. here they are:





There is something I forgot to mention. If you have been following this thread you saw the pictures I of the little "flaws" I posted before, those small metal accumulations were caused by a piece of each mold (some of them) that "broke" because the copper was poured a little too fast. The "broken" pieces of the molds had to go somewhere, most of it went to the bottom of the molds, not affecting the copper block, but in some blocks, some of it didn't have time to go all the way down before the copper got rigid so it stayed trapped in the copper, as I said, it was a really small ammount of molding material so it only affect the looks of the bottom of the block (some black spots), it doesn't affect performance at all because it's too little to do it. I tested all of the blocks, some of them had this some didn't and one of them had more than any other, this is the block oin the bottom left of the picture showing the blockis reflecting the money and they performed the same (at least no difference bigger than 1C, my thermal diode doesn't measure fraction of degrees).
I hope you like the blocks.

@MadDogMe: I would like to have one of those but they're too expensive for me right now, maybe when I start getting some good profit I'll get one.

@Mark_Knecht: I'm glad you liked it

@gmat:I have no international credit card yet, I'll get one as soon as I have the time to get some needed papers, this project is keeping me very busy. Also it would probably take some time before it got here. Temp measurement is tricky stuff

Thanks
Bruno
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Unread 10-10-2002, 08:40 PM   #93
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Only one word : AWESOME block.congratulations friend. Something tells me that i will testing one of thaat this weekend.
Congratulations again,
Eduardo
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Unread 10-13-2002, 03:51 AM   #94
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Brunno,
Hey man, them blocks are looking damn fine, they should perform well and I think that the testing method that you're doing is fine, no need to get all super techical, most people don't even have the test setup that you have laid out...

About the "looks..." frankly, as I've always stated, I don't give too much a damn about looks of stuff. I'm ALL ABOUT PERFORMANCE. Looks, bah, that's some kid stuff/nerd "look at my WATER cooled OC'ing rig" mess that people use to inflate egos IMHO. It's nice, but it takes up YOUR time to do it, and adds unnecessary COST. If people want eye-candy, they can polish the blocks themselves, that's how I feel... Now lets talk about me purchasing one of your lovely blocks ASAP! PS- I want one of the one's with the ALL-copper construction! Thanks good luck!

Ciao!
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Unread 10-13-2002, 05:57 AM   #95
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What are the tops made of?, what are they covered in?. they're looking very good, at the price you're thinking of charging I'd say you have a niche cornered . I'd like to see the tops not quite as long,(IMO you don't need more than 5mm[at the most] past the edge of the mounting holes), and with the corners rounded.

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Unread 10-15-2002, 10:47 PM   #96
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What are the dimensions of the base of the block? (the side that goes on the cpu)

thanks!
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Unread 10-16-2002, 12:10 PM   #97
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I'm sorry for taking so much time to update you, I'm working on a water cooled PSU, I fried mine , since I only had one and it took me a few days to get a new one I had no PC for the last few days.

Please also take a look at the thread I'm starting on GPU water blocks, link here
.
Well about the blocks, I had 4 finished, one was already sold, one is for myself and the other 2, well I'll have to sell them to people from brazil (really sorry) because I pay $10 for each international money wire I receive, so even if I sold the 2 together I would still loose $10 out of $30. For the 2nd batch, using my merchant account at paysystems.com I'll wait until I sell like 10 blocks, to tell them to wire the money for me, so I only loose $1 for each block because of that damn international wire fee. I can't sell those 2 and leave the money in the US because I need it to buy material to make the 2nd batch. That sucks, I know but the 2nd batch should not take soo long to be ready, than I'll have like 20 blocks ready to sell.

I found a solution for precise (1C error) temp measurement, I got myself 4 of those $10 digital thermometers used to measure fever, they have some very small 50k thermistors in them, these are great because they can fit between the water block and the CPU if taken out of their metallic protection and they can also be used under water if you don't remove the metal casing from the thermometer. They're also good quality. So I have 4 50k thermistors and I'll be putting together something like this: http://www.benchtest.com/gp_Temp5.html, take a look at gp_temp1 for more details on how it works. So in a couple of days max I'll give you very precise C/W numbers, I'll be measuring water temp, radiator fan intake temp, and CPU, also this time I will include the whole 23 watts of my pump in the calculations, I only put 6W in my last calculations because I read the value from my 500L/h pump box instead of the 1200L/h I'm using. That should give us even better C/W numbers!

@Marvin: Thank you, for everything. Something tells me you already have one working on your PC

@V12|V12: Thanks! You have a point about the looks/performance thing, they will be sold as seen on the pics, I think they look pretty good and it doesn't take me so much time to polish all sides of them, just the bottom. All of them are all copper, except for the hose fittings that are brass, the top is painted copper. I'm very very sorry but you'll have to wait for the 2nd batch, as I explained in the beginning of this post I cannot afford to loose $10 out of $30, that would be selling them for $10 each .

@MadDogMe: The tops are made of copper, they're covered with 2 layers of base paint, 2 layers of grey paint and something I forgot the name in english on top to protect the painting.

@2old_honda: The base is 49x56 and the upper part is 61x56, as I said before the measurements may vary on the sides by 1 or even 2mm because, well I already explained earlier in this thread and it and you probably don't even want to know why

Thank you
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Unread 10-17-2002, 10:15 PM   #98
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Bruno,
Hey, good to here the update, is there any chance that I could get one of them blocks WITHOUT the protective base paint? I'm planning on coating mine with some clear Lacquer so that I can see all the wonderful copper etc... When do you think that the batch will be ready to send out? I've got the money ready and waiting!

So far, what C/W numbers have you been getting?
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Unread 10-19-2002, 11:35 PM   #99
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Again, sorry for taking so long to post back, my computer was all around the room in the last couple of days, I did a Vmod on my mobo, now it can give a Vcore of 2.10, it would only go to 1.85 before, I also exchanged the original northbridge HSF for one that is waaay bigger and undervolted it to 8V so even undervolted (and silent) it will still cool much better than the original, it's actually a modded K6 HSF.

I got my XP 1700+ running at 1713 MHz, it dissipates 120W including the pump, better for block testing than the 90W it dissipated earlier, I also added a thermistor under the core reporting temps trought the game port, as described in that benchtest.com article I posted before. I also added an properly insulated thermistor to my reservoir and another one with a long wire to measure radiator intake temp. That should give us some accurate enough temp measurements. I'll just have to finish
making the shroud for my new radiator to begin testing with the new thermistors. I'll post some pics as soon as I reassemble my water cooling rig, right now I have a loud heatsink/fan running, after getting used to the silence this noise is driving me crazy!

As for the 2nd batch, I'll start working on it once I sell the 2 blocks I have on stock so I can buy some more copper

@V12|V12: Yes, I can get you with a raw copper top, I just wan't to let people know that this is an exception, if everyone would want their custom blocks I would be very screwed. Please let me know what kind of lacquer you're using, I need to try some and see wich one it's better.
As I said I'll start casting it once I sell these 2 I got, I already have someone to buy them so it shouldn't take long. I can't give you a date but If I would have to _guess_ I would say something like 2 weeks until I got them ready. As I said I really can't say I'm just guessing.

Thanks
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Unread 10-21-2002, 07:25 PM   #100
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I didn't reply so far because I wanted to wait until I get the shroud ready so I could post some pics of the new rig, I got an all 6mm acrylic reservoir which I'm probably going start making some more to sell too if people like it.

The shroud is not ready yet because it involved a lot of work on making it, it's made of a cut/bended 8mm thick galvanized steel (or was that iron, whatever, it's the same material used in the common PC cases, only thicker). First I had to do the match to calculate the right angles and side sizes because my new rad is not square as the fan, it's 15x18cm. It was very hard to cut with metal cutting scissors (I think that's the name for the tool), those big plates wouldn't fit in my metal cutting machine that is mainly for cutting bars, after that bending it correctly also took some time, then I made the holes for the 120mm fans, wich also took lots of time because I don't own a dremel so they had to be made with the "several small holes side by side" method, toomrrow morning I'll weld it and paint both shrouds and the radiator (I got some heat conductive paint special for radiators from a radiator store so it won't affect performance).

Long story short, I'm not sure how long that paint takes to dry but my new testing rig should be ready by tomorrow night. Then I'll post all pics.

Thanks
Bruno Facca
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