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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 12-23-2005, 10:49 AM   #1
Joe
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Default IHS/TTV/Bare Core/Intel/AMD Debate Thread

OK now because I think everyone is getting confused, or overly emotional and not really talking about the real questions anymore. What I want is this.

A debate style post what they think one at a time when it comes to the IHS/TTV/Bare Core. No cross barbs at other people... Just a CLEAR, clean explanation of what you think when it comes to this.

So please, just post what your stance is. Keep the posts clean, and clear and don't start slamming other peoples opinions. Because honestly, I think this is a simple discussion that is being made WAY more complex by people not understanding whats really being said.

Keep discussions and debate outside of the "where you stand" posts on topic, and professional. Act like adults who know a thing or two about this stuff, not kids who just like to throw shit around the forums.

I am going to sticky this thread because I think in the end it will yield good info and many different perspectives with out all the drama and name calling. *Note that off topic, abusive, deliberate inflammatory posts will be removed*
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Last edited by Joe; 12-23-2005 at 10:56 AM.
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Unread 12-23-2005, 11:48 AM   #2
BillA
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Default Re: IHS/TTV/Bare Core/Intel/AMD Debate Thread

I concur with the descriptions in pH's article
3 general methodologies described, testers select that which they wish

like, dislike - so what ?
the guy paying the bills, the tester, will decide which methodology they will use

a rational discussion would focus perhaps on the relative uncertainty associated with the 3 methods' measurements
or the total cost differences between the methods
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Unread 12-23-2005, 11:54 AM   #3
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Default Re: IHS/TTV/Bare Core/Intel/AMD Debate Thread

Would you like to enlighten the rest of us with the "rational" discussion on uncertainty and cost differences? I mean this thread is here for that, its here to talk about all aspects of the different testing methodologies used. It seems odd to do hundreds of posts about a topic, be so worked up about it, then just say - why would anyone want to know what I like or dislike? .
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Unread 12-23-2005, 11:54 AM   #4
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Default Re: IHS/TTV/Bare Core/Intel/AMD Debate Thread

Attached is the pic Roscal provided about the IHS's.

The IHS thickness difference is pretty substantial between AMD and Intel. Looks to be 1mm. Some water block bases are only 1mm thick and for a reason. The thicker you make the IHS the less the thin bases design blocks will perform.

Now if you remove the IHS you get rid of that extra thickness but you also remove that thickness variable from the test which IMO is not good. You basically remove any idea how the block will perform with an IHS which 99.5% of the world will simply not remove. Not to mention they probably will become non-removable in the future anyway.

IMO if we really want the best idea how a block will perform on a actual CPU then we would have to come up with a way to test with the IHS and take into account the various IHS thickness's.

As for using IHS temp or die temp I don't see that it matters. I would prefer the temp probe NOT touch the water block in any way however. Cooling the probe is probably not a good thing. Closer to the die the better IMO.

That is my confused take on it. The more I listen the less I learn lately though.
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Unread 12-23-2005, 12:22 PM   #5
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Default Re: IHS/TTV/Bare Core/Intel/AMD Debate Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe
Would you like to enlighten the rest of us with the "rational" discussion on uncertainty and cost differences? I mean this thread is here for that, its here to talk about all aspects of the different testing methodologies used. It seems odd to do hundreds of posts about a topic, be so worked up about it, then just say - why would anyone want to know what I like or dislike? .
like/dislike was meant generally

sure (been ignored several times before Joe), consider °C/W:
for each method, what is the capability of the temp measurement (spec the req instrument) ?
ditto for the power measurement ?
ditto for the mounting variation ?
consideration of the above will define the preformance capability of the test platform, NOW the platforms may be reasonably compared

repeat for cost,
with such descriptions a prospective tester could understand the cost of accuracy, while a reader of test reports would have an insight into the credibility of test data (or the conclusions)
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Unread 12-23-2005, 02:29 PM   #6
Les
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Default Re: IHS/TTV/Bare Core/Intel/AMD Debate Thread

Test nothing until learn to interpret the data
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Unread 12-23-2005, 02:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: IHS/TTV/Bare Core/Intel/AMD Debate Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les
Test nothing until learn to interpret the data
TIM rules as far as "Hot-Spots" are concerned(opinion, but supported by crude modelling)
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Unread 12-23-2005, 03:07 PM   #8
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Default Re: IHS/TTV/Bare Core/Intel/AMD Debate Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les
Test nothing until learn to interpret the data
chicken and egg, no ?
prefer gathering data and learning how to intrepret
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Unread 12-23-2005, 03:17 PM   #9
Les
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Default Re: IHS/TTV/Bare Core/Intel/AMD Debate Thread

The "no" always confuses me

Banking with the " set points" (power profile) changing?
Not my idea of good "testing". Investigation, yes.

Joe
Why the death knoll of a "stickie" to this thread ?

Last edited by Les; 12-23-2005 at 04:06 PM.
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Unread 12-23-2005, 05:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: IHS/TTV/Bare Core/Intel/AMD Debate Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA
...
3 general methodologies described, testers select that which they wish...
1- Die simulator
2- CPU based
3- Intel TTV

As I've stated before, I'm going the route of the Die simulator, with a free floating IHS.

The IHS gives my heat die a durable surface, and the heat die gives me a quantifiable (and control-able) heat source. 10mm by 10mm and 14mm by 14mm as die dimensions.
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Unread 12-23-2005, 05:05 PM   #11
BillA
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Default Re: IHS/TTV/Bare Core/Intel/AMD Debate Thread

Ben
you and IC should try to work off Inco's setup, no reason to reinvent the wheel
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Unread 12-23-2005, 05:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: IHS/TTV/Bare Core/Intel/AMD Debate Thread

Yep, am on that too (Incoherent's work).
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