How can you not support democracy?

[slr]

No i don't think so althought i guess we'll never know that...

Do you think that Americans had democracy in their mind when they were establishing dictatorships all around the world including my country???

NO

Do you remember what the war against Iraq was all about???

Weapons of mass destruction...

Did they find any???

NO

Their excuse for killing 100.000 people...
"We made a mistake on the weapons (Yeah right...)but we will establish democracy..."

Do you know the real reason for the war???

Oil and the son finishing the work of the father...
And that has nothing to do neither with democracy nor with freedom...
It's about money, wanting to rule the world and playing the big gangsta with your taxpayers money, either you like it or not.

The whole world owns to US as much as they own to any other country.Having 500 billion a year to spend on guns doesn't make you neither special nor democratic.

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Did you bother to read the part about us spending more on health care....

slr are you a democracy now. Do you think the Soviets had democracy as their ultimate aim. Ask anyone north of your country.

[Etacovda]

Originally Posted by BalefireX

It appears the general consensus is that democracy is good, unless the United States had anything to do with it, in which case democracy is bad.

No, the consensus is that democracy in its true form is good, what the US is forcing onto other countries isn't true democracy. If there wasnt something large to gain financially, the US would NOT be doing it.

It still disgusts me that the US called for financial aid for the WTC terrorism, cried foul and made out like it was the biggest tragedy in modern history. How many innocents have died due to the war on 'democracy' (what a ****ing pile of bullshit, the things people will chose to believe is amazing) - i agree with slr.

[BalefireX]

From the original post:

More than three-quarters of Canadians said they didn't think the United States should try to promote the creation of democratic governments in other countries, according to an Associated Press-Ipsos poll.

What Canadian belief can be deduced from the results of this poll? Either
1) democracy is bad and should not be promoted (I don't think Canadians think this)
2) democracy is good for us, but people in non-democratic countries do not deserve democracy (I don't want to believe that Canadians think this)
3) democracy is good, so long as it is not a result of US involvement (what I stated in my previous post)

Whether or not the US is a horrible country is not the topic of this thread, as far as I can tell.

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by slr

No i don't think so althought i guess we'll never know that...

Do you think that Americans had democracy in their mind when they were establishing dictatorships all around the world including my country???

NO

Do you remember what the war against Iraq was all about???

Weapons of mass destruction...

Did they find any???

NO

Their excuse for killing 100.000 people...
"We made a mistake on the weapons (Yeah right...)but we will establish democracy..."

Do you know the real reason for the war???

Oil and the son finishing the work of the father...
And that has nothing to do neither with democracy nor with freedom...
It's about money, wanting to rule the world and playing the big gangsta with your taxpayers money, either you like it or not.

The whole world owns to US as much as they own to any other country.Having 500 billion a year to spend on guns doesn't make you neither special nor democratic.

Let’s be clear, America did not establish dictatorships but we did support some dictatorships during the cold war. I think Greece was more than capable of producing dirt bags without US help

OK there were no WMD. But it does not follow that this war was for oil. Please qualify your argument. First explain to me the economic viability. Next please point out the dictator that we are installing in Iraq in order to ensure we get oil on the cheap.

Let me ask you a question, don’t you think if it was cheap oil we where after we would invade Canada. The economically it is much more viable and they don’t suicide bomb.

I'm still trying to figure out who these 100,000 people are that we supposedly killed in Iraq. I fought in the war and I did see 100,000 people killed by Americans or British.

BTW how about all the Iraqis forced to vote at gun point last month

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by slr

No i don't think so althought i guess we'll never know that...

Do you think that Americans had democracy in their mind when they were establishing dictatorships all around the world including my country???

NO

Do you remember what the war against Iraq was all about???

Weapons of mass destruction...

Did they find any???

NO

Their excuse for killing 100.000 people...
"We made a mistake on the weapons (Yeah right...)but we will establish democracy..."

Do you know the real reason for the war???

Oil and the son finishing the work of the father...
And that has nothing to do neither with democracy nor with freedom...
It's about money, wanting to rule the world and playing the big gangsta with your taxpayers money, either you like it or not.

The whole world owns to US as much as they own to any other country.Having 500 billion a year to spend on guns doesn't make you neither special nor democratic.

Errr, so why then does Greece buy BILLIONS of $$$ of military weapons from the USA? Answer: To manipulate Turkey.... http://fas.org/asmp/profiles/greece.htm Also read some of the other info there. Greece doesn't sound all that much better either dude.

[peepingdan]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

No, Ad Hominems do not prove YOU are right, they just fallacious. However, I do love how the kids who live off the very cream of our land complain about America the most.

Would you please stop calling me kid? I'm an adult.

[Etacovda]

You're not an adult until you can legally drink in bars (gotta get lighthearted somewhere in here, eh)

Age is 20 in CA, isnt it?

[slr]

Greece is more than capable of producing it's own dirt bags without noone help that's true.It is true for any country in the world.But this particular one was "supported" by the US.

Starting a war for a reason and in the end saying that it wasn't valid is not OK.
It's like me killing you because i thought that you raped my wife and then proven wrong...How's that for an example???
Even better kill you because i have the suspicion that you MIGHT rape my wife???The least that would happen to me is go to jail...

I think that US has the most advanced intelligence agency in the world.I wouldn't be surprised if our discussion is being monitored...So i believe that they should have been able to know whether there where WMD's or not.

Invading Canada is not an option simply because there is no way to justify it.
Canada doesn't "need" any sort of reform, doesn't have any major differences with anyone and it's a free peacefull country.You simply cannot attack someone like that.

The Iraqis didn't vote with guns pointed at them and that's a definately a good thing i never said anything different.The point is that it was done the wrong way.Democracy and voting isn't even the reason that this war started for...

And one other thing for jaydee116.

I never said that Greece does not buy weapons.All the countries in the world have weapons.But having them is one thing and using them is another.Also i challenge you spend a couple of minutes reading the article you pointed me to.It will help you understand a lot of things about what's going in this region.

Also closing i would like to say a thing to avoid any misunderstanding.

I do not have anything against Lothar or jaydee, against Americans Turks or any other nation in the world and i do not see this thread as a vendetta or a way to separate the good from the bad guys.
I see it as an opportunity to exchange opinions on matters that affect our lives whether we understand it or not, whether we like it or not.
Nothing i said until now was meant to be personal to anyone

And one more thing...

Peace

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Let’s be clear, America did not establish dictatorships but we did support some dictatorships during the cold war. I think Greece was more than capable of producing dirt bags without US help

OK there were no WMD. But it does not follow that this war was for oil. Please qualify your argument. First explain to me the economic viability. Next please point out the dictator that we are installing in Iraq in order to ensure we get oil on the cheap.

Let me ask you a question, don’t you think if it was cheap oil we where after we would invade Canada. The economically it is much more viable and they don’t suicide bomb.

I'm still trying to figure out who these 100,000 people are that we supposedly killed in Iraq. I fought in the war and I did see 100,000 people killed buy Americans or British.

BTW how about all the Iraqis forced to vote at gun point last month

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by slr

And one more thing...

Peace

No offense taken we are all adults here...even you peepingdan . This was intended to be a rational discussion with a little ribbing.

We are getting off topic here but let me address this. I think you an many other people view America as being a Omnipotent Super Power and the reality is that we make honest mistakes. If we had as good an intelligence apparatus as you think- do you think 9/11 would have occurred? The truth is that after the Cold War we dismantled a large portion of our intelligence infrastructure. Sure we had great technology, but that was it. Talk about Iraq....there were some very basic things that we didn't know about the countries infrastructure. The bottom line is that you shouldn't think because we are a super power that we are all knowing.

Back on topic, I think that it should be noted that our Presidents stand to support democracy does not mean that we are going to invade every country that is not a democracy. I think that his statement simply means that we will no longer support dictators as we did during the Cold War and we were going to re-think our relationship with some or our non-democratic allies. Further, I think we will likely apply economic and political pressure in most cases.

[MadHacker]

I think it is a matter of a few politicians trying to force their ideas.
I think all politicians are liars and cheats and would sell their mom for an extra vote.
And the one’s that make policy are the minority.
In Americans defense…
Do you think the general public was aware what was happening when the CIA supported the dictators that had gained power?
Only difference is that with live media it is now harder to for the government to lie to its citizens and the rest of the world

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by MadHacker

Do you think the general public was aware what was happening when the CIA supported the dictators that had gained power?
Only difference is that with live media it is now harder to for the government to lie to its citizens and the rest of the world

Oh yea, in fact our intervention in Central America and support of Pinochet and Marcos was big news. There was a ton of debate in our Congress about the morality of supporting many of these regimes. Look at our Iran-Contra scandal that was a direct result of Congress passing laws which said we would no longer fund certain Governments and anti-communist groups that were known to abuse human rights.

[peepingdan]

Originally Posted by Etacovda

You're not an adult until you can legally drink in bars (gotta get lighthearted somewhere in here, eh)

Age is 20 in CA, isnt it?

Nope and nope. Adult is 18 and alchohol age is 21.
3 years of tapping your feet...

[Lucanus]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Yes you are, please read post #29




Was Sweden a democracy when it annexed its neighbors? Did your King allow free elections? I think the motivation of your leaders during your “Super Power” period were driven by personal ambition. I think you are comparing apples and oranges.

Iraq has had its first election so that it can write a constitution. You can’t deny the tremendous turn out. You think that well organized tyrannical states fail from the inside? Or that there can be a popular uprising? Give me a break. I've seen the fascist state in action. It is impressive what it will do to the ordinary person. After a generation people will not take a crap without permission.

Bush is playing the crazy cowboy to give you (EU) more leverage diplomatically. Besides that theocracy may fail on it's own at any minute. Almost 80% of the population is under 30 and they are sick of the Mullahs dictating to them. Now this is an example were a popular uprising may happen. Non-fascist authoritarian state with political divisions. On the other hand fascist states like Ba’athist Iraq, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia or Castro’s Cuba will never fail on their own. They work too well.

Was Sweden a democracy when it annexed its neighbors?
No, this was during the 1600's, democracy had not yet paved it's way through northern europe at that time. BTW, kudos to Greece for hatching the idea
We became a democracy through free elections.
Which is worse: an non-democracy annexing/forcefully taking over a neighbor/other country. Or a democracy (read: USA) doing it?

You can’t deny the tremendous turn out.

Ofcourse not. I wasn't aware I did. On the other hand, the Ba'ath party got about 98% votes last time Shaddam staged an election. Meaning what exactly? - Turnout means diddly squat as long as it's above 50%.

You think that well organized tyrannical states fail from the inside?

Eventually, yes. When they are ready. There are numerous well documented cases of it throughout history. And a couple of recent ones the past 50 years. The Soviet Union, or more specifically states belonging to the union, East Germany along with a couple of eastern european countrys during the mid 90's. Prior to that, during the early 90's, Poland, Slovenia, and the baltic states Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania.
All freed themselfs from the tyrany of communist oppression by them selfs. All of which today enjoy freedom and democracy due to people taking to the streets, demonstrating.

Bush is playing the crazy cowboy to give you (EU) more leverage diplomatically.

Unfortunatly that's a role he has taken upon himself without anyone asking.
And in doing so failing miserably at getting any credebility for himself or his cause.
To stay on topic though, Don't confuse the EU with the UN.
EU itself has little or nothing to do with anything outside it's borders. They (we) sometimes let the rest of the world know where we stand in a particular question - but the line is drawn there. There is no next step, no military action.
Now the UN is a totaly diffrent story. One everyone can research for themselfs.

On the other hand fascist states like Ba’athist Iraq, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia or Castro’s Cuba will never fail on their own. They work too well.

Misrepresentation of historical facts. Nazi Germany dug it's own grave by going to war. Stalinist Russia collapsed under it's own crumbling ideology - granted the collapse came long after Stalin was gone, but it was still run pretty much the same way, same domestic and foreign policy untill Gorbatjov came along - the rest is history.
And Castro, well... He's what, in his late 60s? It would surprise me greatly if the people of Cuba would put up with his antequated ways of doing things after he is gone. Time will tell


Have a nice day

[pdf27]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

I'm still trying to figure out who these 100,000 people are that we supposedly killed in Iraq. I fought in the war and I did see 100,000 people killed by Americans or British.

It's an epidimiological study published somewhere (The Lancet?). If you read what it actually said, all they could conclude was that the "civilian" (as defined by the relatives of those who died they interviewed) casualties since the start of the war from all causes were between 7,000 and 100,000 higher than would have happened had the war not been fought. This fits with the official Iraqi figures in the region of 10,000. However, those who are against the war pick the high figure despite the fact that this is statistically highly unlikely.
Not that these casualties include for instance those killed by the criminals Saddam let out just before the invasion.

[superart]

between 7k and 100k? Wow, thats a pretty wide margine. Wide enough for me to believe that it is just numbers someone pulled out of their ass.

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by Lucanus

......

The Greeks were the first democracy. I am a very big fan of the Minoans, Ancient Greeks, Hellenistic Greeks Carthaginians and the Romans. Let’s face it they were some very smart people and all early attempts at democracy. However, you have to give credited to the United States for inventing modern constitutional democracy. It undeniable that the idea of a modern republic was radical by European standards in the late 1700’s. In fact my experience working with some of your European aristocracy is that the average guy is just one of the unwashed and not completely capable self rule. So please don’t act as though European are more sophisticated or evolved when it comes to democracy. The truth is that you have followed the American lead when it comes to MODERN DEMOCRACY.

America has not annexed Iraq…be intellectually honest. In fact now we are working as hard as we can to get their own security up and working so we can pull our troops back home.

So you’re saying that the elections in Iraq did mean anything? That the were staged by America. You’re kidding right? Or you are in complete denial of reality.

The Eastern Block Countries freed themselves with a lot of US pressure on the Soviet Union. You forget that Mikhail Gorbachev was convince by Reagan to allow more freedoms and thereby wakening that Soviet authority.

I don’t misinterpret anything; you have the fact all wrong. Stalinist Russia never collapsed. Stalin died as leader of the Soviet Union which later collapsed under much weaker rule by Gobachev. Your right the Nazi Germany did dig its own grave. Had the US not intervened they would likely run Europe today. Castro has been in power now for over 46 years he will likely die as the dictator of Cuba unless there is military intervention in Cuba. BTW Castro is in his 80’s. Honestly the more I look at your point the more it suggests you are not as versed in history as you think.

Originally Posted by pdf27

......

Thanks, obviously figures used by the less intellectually honest…it seems that some people are less interested in the truth and more interested in manipulating data to their perception of the truth. This seems to be true on the right and the left of the political wings.

An honest analysis is all I ask. It seems like we have taken two steps back from The Age of Enlightenment, where seeking the truth was more important that personal bias. We'll be back to burning witches soon.

[miladiou]

Lothar will you stop this stupid pro american propaganda, i thought this site was about computer cooling...If you are so excited about being such a glorious pro democratic american soldier, there are probably some places where you can go and masturbate with your brillant and objective arguments....

[BillA]

Originally Posted by miladiou

Lothar will you stop this stupid pro american propaganda, i thought this site was about computer cooling...If you are so excited about being such a glorious pro democratic american soldier, there are probably some places where you can go and masturbate with your brillant and objective arguments....

posted in "Random Nonsense / Geek Stuff"
if you do not wish to read, click on something else
all about freedom, no ?

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by miladiou

Lothar will you stop this stupid pro american propaganda, i thought this site was about computer cooling...If you are so excited about being such a glorious pro democratic american soldier, there are probably some places where you can go and masturbate with your brillant and objective arguments....

First off I think this is posted in Random Nonsense / Geek Stuff

Second the thread title is: How can you not support democracy?

The thread was intended to be about Democracy not America in particular. It is chuckle heads like you that keep going off topic.

[superart]

well, obveously almost everyone supports democracy, thats a dumb black-and-white type question I would expect to see on FoxNews. The question should be, what form of democracy do you support. Or what is the best way to bring democracy to a country? Or how to understand if a country is ready for democracy?

Then again, you need to considder the people that really dont want democracy. I'm sure there are some people that WANT to live in a theocracy under religous law. Should there be a place for them to go? Should we have a couple countries set aside for religous nuts to go live in if they want to? If not, then aren't we infringeing on their right to live how they want?

[BillA]

stepping aside here for a digression:
for me it is all about freedom, to have the right - and ability - to make choices
if choices are not possible, say in a prison, there is no freedom
and adults can prattle on about the what and how and why
- religious countries are a good example

but what about children ?
are they ENTITLED to freedom ?
at what age ?
freedom from what ?
-> their parents filling their heads with crap ?
and we ALL will define 'crap' differently

while not enamored of the US knows better approach (which we clearly do not),
is the greater good served by leaving despots in power ?
Idi Amin is my first example

and I will add one after another until the consensus in arrived at that it is an act of universal morality to remove despots
- do we need to define what a despot is ?

[Joe]

Cummon, how long till this thread devolves into threatening to kill people? thats the procooling I know and love! hehe

j/k Just wondering how long this thread will go before it turns into the other well known political thread hehe

[superart]

as aposed to just being a continuation of the other well known political thread?

[BillA]

post #71 had no US/Iraq slant
care to respond ?

[Vector86]

Originally Posted by Lucanus

Sweden? I'm from Sweden myself, and rather interested in history. According to every single history book I've ever read the USA has never been a part in any of Swedens foreign disputes...

Sweden has been officially neutral since 1812 (a law declared by the king). One that still applys to this day.
We were one of the first countrys in the world to adopt democracy as form of government.
Louis de Geer became our first Prime Minister in 1876.
Last war we were in was a petty little argument over weither or not Norway should belong to us or not. All in accordance with a peace-agreement signed with Denmark (Norway belonged to Denmark back then).
Having argued about it for a couple of months, without a single shot ever fired, we decided to call it a day and left the norwegians to their own devices. This was in 1814.

We've enjoyed the pleasure of almost 200 years of uninterrupted peace, largly due to our foreign policy. At no time, except for a brief period during WW II, have we been at risk of being invaded. That time by nazi Germany.. owever, that invasion never came - and it was NOT becuase of the USA, it was due to a couple of things:
1. Despite, or should I say because of, our neutral stance we let Germany transport military equipment over our borders untill we closed them in 1943. We also supplied the English with ballbearings (Swedish invention by the way, "SKF" ring a bell?)

2. We had nothing Germany wanted.

3. Rumor has it that Eva Braun, Hitlers mistress (and later on wife) had distant family from Sweden, cousins or whatever.

For whatever reason - the invasion never came. And by late 1943, early 1944 it was game over for Germany anyway - largly due to having to fight a 2 front war.

Anyway, now that we've cleared up that misconception.. on we go..

Germany.
Germany is not a democracy due to US influences, in fact - half the country suffered under a Soviet based communistic regiem for almost half a century largly due to actions taken by the US. The democratic Germany we know today owes it's " democratic freedom" mainly becuase of two things, the fall of the Soviet Union and the people of East Germany's individual thirst for freedom.

Japan:
Japan is a democracy, not due to US action, but a fortunate result of US re-action.
Had they never attacked the US at pearl harbour - chances are they'd still have imperial rule. In all honesty and fairnes, the US simply can not take credit for the end result. Even though it's nice to tell yourself you can, or should, or whatever..

South Africa

Their way to freedom is a result of miltiple nations being involved in changing apartheid into democracy. They had thief first democratic election in 1994 after more than 20 years of struggle. Nothing much changed untill the west opened thier eyes - or perhaps "wallet" is a more suitable word - in the late 80's, as the story of Nelson Mandela and ANC made it's way to our television sets.
If ANYONE person, nation or organisation should take credit for the liberation of black people ,and equal rights for all, throughout South Africa - it should be Nelson Mandela. Not the US or anyone else.

South Korea and Taiwan are... well... let's say "debatable". But to say that Sweden, Germany, Japan or South Africa have democracy becuase of the US is just plain ridiculous.


Anyway,.. Now that we'r done that that - on we go...

On the subject at hand...
Since the US model of democracy differs enormously from ours it's hard to have a democracy vs. non-democracy discussion with an american. For your enlightenment - we have a milti party democracy. No party has gotten 50% or more of votes for decades now, so all the partys pretty much have to compromise to get any work done.
This is far from perfect as it takes ages for the partys to come to an agreement on how to vote in the "Riksdag" to get a bill passed (our equivallent to the american Senate).
On the good side every body has thier say, and atleast have a decent chance of getting will. 'Compromise' being the word of the day.
And I'm rambling... What I was about to say is this:

If our nations history has taught us anything it is that democracy or any other form of government for that matter can only come from one direction - and that is from the people up. They (WE) must want it. Simply storming in with guns and shoot anyone who doesn't agree with you isn't a solution.
Sweden used to be like that, we were a super power once, most of northern Europe including large parts of what today is Russia used to belong to us. Heck, we were 2 weeks away from putting a swede on the Tzars throne in Moscow but he was assassinated on the way there...
We did quite well for ourselfs, for about 150 years or so untill we've reached a point where we had alienated most of our neighbours or old allies, spent all our money on the military, large parts of the poulation starved and the costs of war had brought us to the brink of bankrupcy.
So we were forced to give it all up and withdraw from Denmark, Norway, Poland, Germany, Russia and Finland (which by the way still has swedish as official language).
Granted our wars was faught for greed, pride, land, wealth and influence - but the lesson is the same...

War (or call it 'disarmarment by force' if you like) isn't the solution.
Democracy must come from inside. And the international community can help by providing mediation or with peace keeping forces if need be. But we simply can not let ourselfs sink so low or become so brainwashed that we believe that the way to freedom can come from the barrel of a gun, in Iraq or anywhere else for that matter. And by the looks of it, Iran is next on Bush's list.
With a war-monger like that at the wheel - I'm honestly worried he's gonna start something he can't stop. If the US goes into Iran, we might very well be facing the next big one... the one ending with III.

Anyway.. Have a nice day

^WERD 2 THAT, I agree 100%