How can you not support democracy?

[nexxo]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Nexxo

You my beg all you like but you wrong here. Dictators give lip service to an ideology but they maintain control buy the use of fear and brutality. Terrorists maintain control of their followers by cultive personally and ideology. These are two are as different as apples and oranges. The aims of a dictator is to operate a state and maintain order, the aims of a terrorist are often to destroy a state.

Your argument about N Korea is a bate and switch. Further, it is a poor example because we sold them fuel oil in exchange for their promise not to enrich nuclear materials. They broke the agreement so WE cut them off.

Actually they are the same animal, just at different stages of development, so to speak. Dictators often start out as terrorists (or "freedom fighters" as they might prefer to call themselves). Especially as they are establishing themselves, cult of personality and ideology are paramount tools of the trade. A successful dictator rarely relies on fear and brutality alone --because people can turn fear to desperation and can get desensitised to brutality. If he does it right, Big Brother only has to be Watching You. If he does it right, you will not fear Big Brother, you will love him.

The aim of a terrorist, by the way, is not just to destroy authority, but to take it over.

You nicely illustrate my point about N. Korea: doing business with some parties simply will not work! But what if, say, it sat on enormous resources that we want to get our hands on? Option number two: change the guy in charge. How? Court local contenders to the throne who do look likely to do business with us in the future... in return for, say, some weapons and money now. OK, another example: why are you still boycotting Cuba? You could destroy Communism within a decade over there just by giving entrepeneurs there a healthy taste of the American Dollar. But that doen't happen, because he is your token Communist, just four hours out of Miami. You have a big lobby of ex-Cubans who might get pissed off. You cannot be seen to do business with him. Moreover, Cuba has got nothing to offer you.

[superart]

Originally Posted by nexxo

Moreover, Cuba has got nothing to offer you.

That's not true. Cuba is amung the worlds foremost leaders in the production of good cigars, hot bitches, and baseball players.

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by nexxo

Actually they are the same animal, just at different stages of development, so to speak. Dictators often start out as terrorists (or "freedom fighters" as they might prefer to call themselves). Especially as they are establishing themselves, cult of personality and ideology are paramount tools of the trade. A successful dictator rarely relies on fear and brutality alone --because people can turn fear to desperation and can get desensitised to brutality. If he does it right, Big Brother only has to be Watching You. If he does it right, you will not fear Big Brother, you will love him.

The aim of a terrorist, by the way, is not just to destroy authority, but to take it over.

You nicely illustrate my point about N. Korea: doing business with some parties simply will not work! But what if, say, it sat on enormous resources that we want to get our hands on? Option number two: change the guy in charge. How? Court local contenders to the throne who do look likely to do business with us in the future... in return for, say, some weapons and money now. OK, another example: why are you still boycotting Cuba? You could destroy Communism within a decade over there just by giving entrepeneurs there a healthy taste of the American Dollar. But that doen't happen, because he is your token Communist, just four hours out of Miami. You have a big lobby of ex-Cubans who might get pissed off. You cannot be seen to do business with him. Moreover, Cuba has got nothing to offer you.

Honestly you really need to see with your own two eyes the well run dictatorship in action. You'll have a different perspective once you see it with our own eyes.

The point about North Korea is an example of us using our economic carrot to influence a dictatorship. I say again, you bated and switched. If you can see that it’s really not worth continuing to discuss. Dictators are driven by a different mode of operation from democracies. You are attempting to draw equivalence and that simply will work.

Cuba is a perfect example of lip service ideology. Castro talks about the "Revolution" but the reality is that he is a tin pot dictator. FYI Cuba has great economic potential it’s just strangled by sudo-communist economic ideals and a dictator. Further, they would be one of our largest trading partners if we decided to do business with them.

[Lothar5150]

This is funny stuff

Great Moments in Punditry

Great Moments in Punditry 2

Great Moments in Punditry 3

[nexxo]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Honestly you really need to see with your own two eyes the well run dictatorship in action. You'll have a different perspective once you see it with our own eyes.

The point about North Korea is an example of us using our economic carrot to influence a dictatorship. I say again, you bated and switched. If you can see that it’s really not worth continuing to discuss. Dictators are driven by a different mode of operation from democracies. You are attempting to draw equivalence and that simply will work.

Er. Did you actually read my previous post?

Cuba is a perfect example of lip service ideology. Castro talks about the "Revolution" but the reality is that he is a tin pot dictator. FYI Cuba has great economic potential it’s just strangled by sudo-communist economic ideals and a dictator. Further, they would be one of our largest trading partners if we decided to do business with them.

You're telling me nothing new here, except to illustrate my point exactly: i.e. then why don't we do business with him?

Anyway I see no point in continuing either. You said war is not profitable; I explained that for certain parties it is seen as eminently so. From your last reply I'm not sure you're actually getting what I am saying, so let's call it a day.

[Lothar5150]

For all pessimists...

"Iraq's new charter appeared to receive enough 'yes' votes to pass, despite large Sunni opposition."
By Dan Murphy | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

Link

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Let me ask you a question, don’t you think if it was cheap oil we where after we would invade Canada. The economically it is much more viable and they don’t suicide bomb.

hmm - shouldn't that be "if it was cheap oil we where after we would invade Canada again - and the USA was a democracy in 1812

claiming credit for the USA for the european countries liberated from the Nazis would probably rankle a lot less with europeans (Brits included) had you declared war on germany in 1939..... rather than declaring neutrality and waiting for them to declare war on you in December 1941...

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

For all pessimists...

"Iraq's new charter appeared to receive enough 'yes' votes to pass, despite large Sunni opposition."
By Dan Murphy | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

hmm - not familiar with the CSM - is it a sensible newspaper? (it's name kinda suggests not.....)

same story as seen from london...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...829200,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...828975,00.html

the test will be what the reaction of opponents will be to failing to secure what they want by voting.... anyone is happy to participate in a system that gives the result they want...

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by pauldenton

hmm - shouldn't that be "if it was cheap oil we where after we would invade Canada again - and the USA was a democracy in 1812

claiming credit for the USA for the european countries liberated from the Nazis would probably rankle a lot less with europeans (Brits included) had you declared war on germany in 1939..... rather than declaring neutrality and waiting for them to declare war on you in December 1941......

Given the history of Europe and our involvement in WWI, selling the American people on another war in Europe was a pretty hard sell. There were lots of protests against US involvement and many celebrities spoke out against our involvement....sound familiar.

Originally Posted by pauldenton

hmm - not familiar with the CSM - is it a sensible newspaper? (it's name kinda suggests not.....)...

Seven Pulitzers

Originally Posted by pauldenton

the test will be what the reaction of opponents will be to failing to secure what they want by voting.... anyone is happy to participate in a system that gives the result they want...

I think the Sunni are starting to realize they have no choice but to go along to get along. Car bombs are not stopping the process only reducing thier influence in the process.

[UNDERBYTE]

"The Republic for which it stands"

Good Grief ! All of you have to go back to school. None of you know the difference between a democracy and a republic?

The USA founders studied all forms of past goverments and found that among the least successful over time were democratic forms of goverment. Because it encouraged the masses to vote themselves "free" benefits. They felt it was not truly a representative form of goverment.

Why did george bush spend so much time chasing the AMISH in the last election? Why do the democrats support the homosexuals so strongly? Small Minorities both? With out the electoral system of goverment there would be no incentive to, they would only be beholden to the gross mass vote, a few major cities would determine every election, hardly representative at all.

The system is mirrored with a mass vote in our congress, and to balance, an electoral senate with two senators per state regardless of the state population.

You Have to ask yourself why Karl Marx Said " We Have to win the war for democrocy!"

[nexxo]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

For all pessimists...

"Iraq's new charter appeared to receive enough 'yes' votes to pass, despite large Sunni opposition."
By Dan Murphy | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

Link

Have people over there stopped killing each other yet?

[superart]

Originally Posted by nexxo

Have people over there stopped killing each other yet?

LOLOLOL

have people over here stopped replying to dead threads yet?

[mastermind2004]

Originally Posted by nexxo

Have people over there stopped killing each other yet?

Have people in the US stopped killing each other yet?

[superart]

it's different though.

In america, we kill each other over stupid shit, like who gets to use the microwave first.

When people over there kill each other, they do it with more chutzpah, and for good reasons, like for patches of shitty sand and dinosaur sludge.

[JSimmons]

Promotion of democracy is ok, but shoving it down the world's throat is just wrong.

[nexxo]

Originally Posted by JSimmons

Promotion of democracy is ok, but shoving it down the world's throat is just wrong.

In fact, sort of contrary to the whole definition of "democracy"...

[Investor]

What an ambitious thead... I like it. Democracy without capitalism = greenpeace

Lothar r u a capitalist? r u a republican?

that may explain some righteous indignation (not a bad thing, think churchill) in other threads.

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by Investor

What an ambitious thead... I like it. Democracy without capitalism = greenpeace

Lothar r u a capitalist? r u a republican?

that may explain some righteous indignation (not a bad thing, think churchill) in other threads.

Yes, I think capitalism is the only workable economic model. History certainly has demonstrated that other models do not work. Communism was a total failure. Socialism is only sustainable with exponential population growth. Further people naturally gravitate toward individual property.

If you look at the Kibbutz movement in Israel, all originally started off socialist. People ate in central dinning, shared clothing and raised each others kids. However, as time progressed people naturally gravitated toward individual property and traditional family structures.

My view is that systems that work with human nature instead of attempting to remake human nature are successful and efficient. Allow for ambition with competition and set the rules so that compromise is often required.

I am a Democrat.

[Investor]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Yes, I think capitalism is the only workable economic model. History certainly has demonstrated that other models do not work. Communism was a total failure. Socialism is only sustainable with exponential population growth. Further people naturally gravitate toward individual property.

If you look at the Kibbutz movement in Israel, all originally started off socialist. People ate in central dinning, shared clothing and raised each others kids. However, as time progressed people naturally gravitated toward individual property and traditional family structures.

My view is that systems that work with human nature instead of attempting to remake human nature are successful and efficient. Allow for ambition with competition and set the rules so that compromise is often required.

I am a Democrat.

I believe you mean dixiecrat... of course if ou were born after 1960 you would not know a dixicrat if pissed on one...

[Investor]

Wow, i actually type drunk. Geesh...

[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by Investor

I believe you mean dixiecrat... of course if ou were born after 1960 you would not know a dixicrat if pissed on one...

I live in Southern California not Southern Carolina

[Investor]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

I live in Southern California not Southern Carolina

What so you have against So. Carolina???

I m-u-s-t t-y-p-e c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y w-h-e-n h-a-v-i-n-g a c-o-c-k-t-a-i-l...

[Investor]

Did you vote for Kerry? You sicko... hehe

[Investor]

There's a pro-democracy trajectory for you... Kerry...

[jaydee]

People we be the ultimate end to any plan and all sub categories of the plan. There is nothing that can be done that would make everyone happy. People's greed and selfishness will always ruin anything good. The past has well proven that. Democracy is probably the best since it gives people the most slack to do as they wish. However as time goes by that slack gets tightened up for abuse of privilege. Once enough slack is removed people get out of control and a revolution starts and all goes to shit again and then starts over.

The flaw in socialism, democracy, communism, capitalism etc is not the plan itself but the people that will be expected to follow the plan. As long as people have free will and diversity all these plans will fail. What is ironic is some of those plans are designed around free will and diversity. The very thing that makes them strong will eventually take them down.

Yes, I have very little faith in human kind.... Way to much evidence to prove my point of view (hell, just turn the news on).

[Investor]

Originally Posted by jaydee

What is ironic is some of those plans are designed around free will and diversity. The very thing that makes them strong will eventually take them down.

Yes, I have very little faith in human kind.... Way to much evidence to prove my point of view (hell, just turn the news on).

I must go sleep off my shine... but before i retire i leave you with this...

Go read Ann Rand's The Virtue of Selfishness: A New Concept of Egoism

There you may at least be exposed not to a solution but to an aggregate answer...

Maybe "unregistered" should read it too...

Good night.