why can retailers not understand engineering integrity ?

BillA · 10-07-2005, 11:48 AM

from another forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacooltech
. . . . . BTW how objective is that "certain grumpy engineer who's maintained a highly respectable status in the PC water cooling" ?
Is he involved in design / manufacturing of competing radiators ? well if that's the case, he can't be really objective now can he?
Unquote

get fu*ked Bruce, you would project your dishonesty to include me
don't presume to hang your marketing spiel sh*t on me
you are in good company with your whoring accusations, ********, all your type

listen dung head, if I post a number it can be replicated by anyone with the interest
stop whining and how about you doing some testing ?
- instead of making unsubstantiated allegations against those who do test ?

do you have an instance of bias that you can cite ?
then wtf are you saying ?
that I lie ?

hey Bruce -. get fu*ked
Bill Adams

jaydee · 10-07-2005, 12:58 PM

I am having a hard time following your post. Are you telling Bruce to get ****ed or is someone else?

BillA · 10-07-2005, 01:03 PM

lol, so po'ed I can't write clearly
ammended the above to add my name

Joe · 10-07-2005, 01:15 PM

Wow. that woke me up!

I would have to say that if Bruce's intentions werent to say you are untrustworthy in your reviews/apprasials, then he just used very bad wording in what he said.

But hell, Bill you are one of the most tried and true testers in the scene, I find it hard to think that you would mislead people for some hidden agenda.

Joe · 10-07-2005, 01:17 PM

BTW, got a link to this "other forum" I would be interested to see the context that this was all said in. Out of context stuff can seem much different than it is.

flatline · 10-07-2005, 01:18 PM

yay more pro/bitching

welcome back

Joe · 10-07-2005, 01:29 PM

you know you missed it

jaydee · 10-07-2005, 01:33 PM

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...1&page=1&pp=25

I am not to sure what context it was in. Bruce was notified of this thread so maybe some insight to come.

nikhsub1 · 10-07-2005, 01:43 PM

More specifically: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...61#post1053461

flatline · 10-07-2005, 01:56 PM

it looks to me asif that post was made by "RVWinkle" thow its credited to "dacooltech" same person? bad quote?

jaydee · 10-07-2005, 01:57 PM

I would also like to understand why Bill is calling Bruce dishonest?

jaydee · 10-07-2005, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatline

it looks to me asif that post was made by "RVWinkle" thow its credited to "dacooltech" same person? bad quote?

Here is a capture of the post. Certainly have to much time on my hands today.

mikoto · 10-07-2005, 02:31 PM

It seems to me that RVwinkle said this part ,"certain grumpy engineer who's maintained a highly respectable status in the PC water cooling" ?
And then Bruce added this to winkle's preceeding out of context quote: BTW how objective is that "certain grumpy engineer who's maintained a highly respectable status in the PC water cooling" ?
And then:
"Is he involved in design / manufacturing of competing radiators ? well if that's the case, he can't be really objective now can he?"

Seems pretty clear to me that Bruce was calling out Bill's integrity.
That's unfortunate. Bill has never done anything but demonstrate competence and integrity and, well, a little willingness to jump down a few throats. Bruce has not, to my knowledge, provided this community with equal value save a bunch of over priced products of rather underwhelming design for all the massive R&D he purports to have invested in them. Until he has perhaps he should tread with a little more care, or at least show the simple common decency of not being irresponsible in his comments about the character of another person. Common respect for others is what I am suggesting unless I wasn't clear.

BillA · 10-07-2005, 02:34 PM

post # 39 http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...1&postcount=39
my take is that Bruce is 'bootstrapping',
cutting everyone down to (his) size by cutting at the level of the boot tops

he has recently graduated from a vendor to a product "designer" - though it seems he merely copied bits of this and that - and is attempting to invalidate technical appraisal based on the source (before it has occurred it would seem)

Bruce is a money chaser and can think only in that reference, no real biggie to other than me

jd
psychobabble; Bruce is dishonest (makes up or shades data) and assumes all others are also, and applied that reasoning to me
- focus directly on what not objective means to a professional generating and presenting data

flip it around, if Bruce were honest would he be so inclined to assert that I am not ?
if Bruce had his own test results would he still need to denigrate others' work ?
another soul brother for Bruce, ****** is a vendor of the same ilk

based on Bruce's statement I accept that he makes no pretense of objectivity, he speaks to advance his cause
when he applies such to me I will object and ask him to substantiate his assertion of non-objectivity

he is being asked now

flatline · 10-07-2005, 02:35 PM

ic thanks for the clarificashon it seams after spending mutch of my life reading thru "our own" rad thred i lost mutsh of my stamina in the area of bitching i stand corrected

dacooltech · 10-07-2005, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unregistered

from another forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacooltech
. . . . . BTW how objective is that "certain grumpy engineer who's maintained a highly respectable status in the PC water cooling" ?
Is he involved in design / manufacturing of competing radiators ? well if that's the case, he can't be really objective now can he?
Unquote

get fu*ked Bruce, you would project your dishonesty to include me
don't presume to hang your marketing spiel sh*t on me
you are in good company with your whoring accusations, Joemac, Jeremy at Silverprop, all your type

listen dung head, if I post a number it can be replicated by anyone with the interest
stop whining and how about you doing some testing ?
- instead of making unsubstantiated allegations against those who do test ?

do you have an instance of bias that you can cite ?
then wtf are you saying ?
that I lie ?

hey Bruce -. get fu*ked
Bill Adams

I never called you a liar, but you're claiming that I'm dishonest???
is it the outcome of your freaking reliable test results?

GO F***K YOURSELF BILL!

I used to have lot of respect for you, and now none at all!!!

and don't you dare calling me dishonest old fella!!!!

I have nothing to do whatsoever with the folks that you mentioned, so i don't have a fu*king clue what you're talking about...

Let' see: From another forum:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVWinkle
And just a heads to everyone, a certain grumpy engineer who's maintained a highly respectable status in the PC water cooling field for quite some time has made some vague references to these new rads. The impression I got was that the performance of this line would be underwhelming. This is deffinitely a product in which you'll want to wait for the reviews before upgrading.

Aren't you the one posted comments below, when pH received his single-pass Pro3:

Quote:

BillA: pretty clear what it is, a BIP 3 single pass
lots of capacity there !

Link

Quote:

BillA:I would give Willie credit for his rads, they are in fact 'made for computer cooling'

Link

Quote:

BillA: Willie has had that single pass for some time, its just not available from retailers
Swiftech had no interest as Willie sells also directly to our distributors,
no way to make a buck - not gonna be offered (by us)

you will see that single pass is not necessairly better, it all depends . . . .

Link

Quote:

BillA: this is a very fine radiator for a particular purpose
we all understand that this is not for the mass market
but its fine here at procooling

nice work Bruce

Link

So after HWlabs finally started offering the single-pass BI radis to the mass market, all of a sudden you started making "vague references" to these rads, giving people the impression that the performance of this line would be underwhelming? What is the reason for this 180 degree change I wonder?

Is it because you designed competing BS radiators for a Chinese manufacturer?

Quote:

BillA: brand new line of rads with different features and performance ?
jeez, can't buy no respect 'round here

but I guess thats because the performance is unknown, ok . . . .

http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/ima...0hl-600x440.gif

http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/ima...iss-600x440.gif

http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/ima...-cw-600x440.gif

Quote:

Bruce:
welcome back Bill

did you design those radis?

I thought those radis are also from China, no?

FYI a company from China contacted me about those radis couple times within the last few months...

Quote:

BillA:
Hi Bruce
yup
and yup
and yup again, the Chinese will retain the right to sell
(the blue paint is cooler)

Quote:

Bruce:
oh OK... so you designed those radiators, applied for a patent, and the Chinese are going to pay you royalty? aren't you guys supposed have some type of exclusive rights on them?

BTW I didn't understand how exactly the patent-pending self-purging brass plenum chamber thing works?

Quote:

BillA: thats all Bruce, want more talk with Gabe

linkage to the posts above

You can not even give a freaking straight answer to simple Qs anymore like you used to eh Bill?

aren't you the one that used to comment about preventing the Chinese from taking over the US market?

aren't you the one that found Chinese radis low tech?

Quote:

this is not a new issue, the Chinese will take every market for low tech products - and rads are low tech
I have several and they perform comparably to those of their type

So WTF? Are you a flip flopper now, or what?

Did you post any test data to support your claims regarding the X-Flow radis, or making vague references is just enough ?

Apparently I'm not the one who does word play in order to bad mouth competing products...

Erick gave me a big surpsrise when he released cheap Black Ice Xtreme rev.1 knock offs... and you started working with him now... so how unbiased are you against competing products now ?

what's your next project? a cheap Storm knock off made in China?

don't flatter yourself with this engineer with integrity BS...
call me a box pusher if you will, i don't give a f**k... I'm not an engineer, and never claimed otherwise... there are tons of engineers with integrity over @ the Pro/forums, which I have tons of respect for, and you're not one of them anymore...

you ruined your good reputation yourself, and don't try your stupid tricks on me... so go f***k yourself you grumpy old engineer who used to be highly respectable...

dacooltech · 10-07-2005, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unregistered

he has recently graduated from a vendor to a product "designer" - though it seems he merely copied bits of this and that - and is attempting to invalidate technical appraisal based on the source (before it has occurred it would seem)

look who is talking... the only block that he released to the market so far is nothing but an optimized version of Hoot's pin design water block ...

at least I gave credit where its due...

what did you engineer so far eh? You don't think you're Stew -who is an engineer with lots of integrity BTW- now, are you?

Quote:

Bruce is a money chaser and can think only in that reference, no real biggie to other than me

yea right i'm the money chaser now... I did not (still don't) even have a single X-Flow single pass radi in stock...

I wonder what you were doing all day @ your old job... posting crap over the forums, badmouthing others products, lurking over @ E-bay looking for test equipment to purchase with the company's money? Bill what particular outstanding achievement/contribution have you made over at your old job?

I wonder what took your old employer so long to realize that something wasn't really happening there...

so you practically used the previous company's research money and time only to directly benefit a competitor? I wonder what's up with the non-compete agreement, which should prevent you from going to a competing company for at least 2 yrs... What's the story here?

and yet you're calling me a money chaser eh old fella?

Quote:

jd
psychobabble; Bruce is dishonest (makes up or shades data) and assumes all others are also, and applied that reasoning to me
- focus directly on what not objective means to a professional generating and presenting data

I am not YOU old fella...

Quote:

flip it around, if Bruce were honest would he be so inclined to assert that I am not ?
if Bruce had his own test results would he still need to denigrate others' work ?
another soul brother for Bruce, javascripterror on OCAU is a vendor of the same ilk

based on Bruce's statement I accept that he makes no pretense of objectivity, he speaks to advance his cause
when he applies such to me I will object and ask him to substantiate his assertion of non-objectivity

he is being asked now

You got your F*CKING answers see my posts above...

i'm sure people will find out about your real face soon when you end up as a bulldog in the forums for your new company...

and you know what do not expect me to jump with you at your low level old fella... There's no need for me to waste my time on you...

BillA · 10-07-2005, 03:34 PM

thanks for the clarification Bruce
others can now determine if you have made your case for my lack of objectivity

Joe · 10-07-2005, 04:52 PM

I dont have nearly a high enought blood alcohol level to read all this, I will read later.

But I do think I will need some popcorn since this seems to be schedule 1 banter!

greenman100 · 10-07-2005, 05:42 PM

how old are we?

pHaestus · 10-07-2005, 05:47 PM

The thing to note here Joe is how they both come out the box swinging F-Bombs at one another. None of that gradual buildup to a flame war stuff that you commonly see in forums. This is not some run of the mill scuffle between nancy-boys; we're watching true internet badasses duke it out here!

I'm gonna grab some of the Canadian tripple on the way home and also load up on snacks. I will also board up the windows because I'm pretty sure the Kool-Aid man is gonna be bustin in the house yelling "OHHHHH YEAAAAH" before too long.

RVWinkle · 10-07-2005, 06:20 PM

...so umm...howabout them new ram waterblocks? What'll those wacky Germans come up with next?

p.s. Sorry to all parties involved, I kinda feel like I started this mess with my silly comments. I was just trying to detract the fanboys who were drooling over the latest toy. I meant no harm and both of you guys are part of the solid foundation of my favorite hobby.

Joe · 10-07-2005, 06:24 PM

no reason to be sorry, as pH said this is an epic thread so far

Lothar5150 · 10-07-2005, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dacooltech

and don't you dare calling me dishonest old fella!!!!

I'm your hucklberry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dacooltech

Erick gave me a big surpsrise when he released cheap Black Ice Xtreme rev.1 knock offs... and you started working with him now... so how unbiased are you against competing products now ?

Bah, Bruce why do you think that Gabe has not released the white paper on radiator performance? Gabe told me himself that the CoolRad-12T outperformed all of the dual core radiators tested, including the BIX. Certainly his reluctance to release the data and or the white paper suggests that the CoolRad-12T may have preformed almost as well as his radiator. The reality is that these radiators are not cheap knock offs.

Bruce let be straight here...Black Ice Radiators are made in the Philippines not in the USA. Second mass production most any type of radiator, for any industry comes from sources outside the USA. It's a labor intensive process which means production goes were labor cost is low. Thus all US based manufacturers in the auto industry and beyond manufacture in plants outside the US or subcontract outside the US.

BTW how is block manufacturing in Turkey working for you?

Finally let’s address the issue of bias. Bill is the CTO because I need wisdom, experience, integrity and accurate data which can be independently verified. If you ever need to question the accuracy of Bill's data then you can run the same test using the same equipment under the same conditions. In short Bill's testing is scientific.

BillA · 10-07-2005, 06:46 PM

may have played out already Joe, Bruce and I have stated what we think - and why
no big deal, and nothing new as it is exactly the same issue as JoeMac (sp ?) raised
I just get huffy at flack from unfounded aspersions motivated by commercial interest
I'm transparent, someone else does it and I'll probably bite the same bait the same way
hi ho

10-07-2005, 11:48 AM	#1
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	why can retailers not understand engineering integrity ? from another forum: Quote: Originally Posted by dacooltech . . . . . BTW how objective is that "certain grumpy engineer who's maintained a highly respectable status in the PC water cooling" ? Is he involved in design / manufacturing of competing radiators ? well if that's the case, he can't be really objective now can he? Unquote get fuked Bruce, you would project your dishonesty to include me don't presume to hang your marketing spiel sht on me you are in good company with your whoring accusations, *******, all your type listen dung head, if I post a number it can be replicated by anyone with the interest stop whining and how about you doing some testing ? - instead of making unsubstantiated allegations against those who do test ? do you have an instance of bias that you can cite ? then wtf are you saying ? that I lie ? hey Bruce -. get fuked Bill Adams Last edited by BillA; 10-08-2005 at 09:16 AM. Reason: removed non-combatants' names - sorry guys

10-07-2005, 01:15 PM	#4
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Wow. that woke me up! I would have to say that if Bruce's intentions werent to say you are untrustworthy in your reviews/apprasials, then he just used very bad wording in what he said. But hell, Bill you are one of the most tried and true testers in the scene, I find it hard to think that you would mislead people for some hidden agenda. __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-07-2005, 01:17 PM	#5
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	BTW, got a link to this "other forum" I would be interested to see the context that this was all said in. Out of context stuff can seem much different than it is. __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-07-2005, 01:18 PM	#6
flatline Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: uk Posts: 109	yay more pro/bitching welcome back __________________ "<pH> I'll stab you in the genitals with a rusty shank if you touch my computer stuff" "we are only 'mean' to the persistently ignorant, lazy, and anyone who questions us" BillA

10-07-2005, 01:29 PM	#7
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	you know you missed it __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-07-2005, 12:58 PM	#2
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I am having a hard time following your post. Are you telling Bruce to get ****ed or is someone else?

10-07-2005, 01:03 PM	#3
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	lol, so po'ed I can't write clearly ammended the above to add my name

10-07-2005, 01:33 PM	#8
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...1&page=1&pp=25 I am not to sure what context it was in. Bruce was notified of this thread so maybe some insight to come.

10-07-2005, 01:43 PM	#9
nikhsub1 c00ling p00n Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: L.A. Posts: 758	More specifically: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...61#post1053461 __________________ :-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-: E6700 @ 3.65Ghz / P5W DH Deluxe / 2GB 667 TeamGroup / 1900XTX PC Power & Cooling Turbo 510 Deluxe Mountain Mods U2-UFO Cube Storm G5 --> MP-01 --> PA 120.3 --> 2x DDC Ultras in Series --> Custom Clear Res "Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity." 1,223,460+ Ghz Folding@Home aNonForums :-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:

10-07-2005, 01:56 PM	#10
flatline Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: uk Posts: 109	it looks to me asif that post was made by "RVWinkle" thow its credited to "dacooltech" same person? bad quote? __________________ "<pH> I'll stab you in the genitals with a rusty shank if you touch my computer stuff" "we are only 'mean' to the persistently ignorant, lazy, and anyone who questions us" BillA

10-07-2005, 01:57 PM	#11
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	I would also like to understand why Bill is calling Bruce dishonest?

10-07-2005, 02:31 PM	#13
mikoto Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: smog Posts: 47	It seems to me that RVwinkle said this part ,"certain grumpy engineer who's maintained a highly respectable status in the PC water cooling" ? And then Bruce added this to winkle's preceeding out of context quote: BTW how objective is that "certain grumpy engineer who's maintained a highly respectable status in the PC water cooling" ? And then: "Is he involved in design / manufacturing of competing radiators ? well if that's the case, he can't be really objective now can he?" Seems pretty clear to me that Bruce was calling out Bill's integrity. That's unfortunate. Bill has never done anything but demonstrate competence and integrity and, well, a little willingness to jump down a few throats. Bruce has not, to my knowledge, provided this community with equal value save a bunch of over priced products of rather underwhelming design for all the massive R&D he purports to have invested in them. Until he has perhaps he should tread with a little more care, or at least show the simple common decency of not being irresponsible in his comments about the character of another person. Common respect for others is what I am suggesting unless I wasn't clear. __________________ "I hate people faggoting up my forums to no good end..." --pH

10-07-2005, 02:34 PM	#14
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	post # 39 http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...1&postcount=39 my take is that Bruce is 'bootstrapping', cutting everyone down to (his) size by cutting at the level of the boot tops he has recently graduated from a vendor to a product "designer" - though it seems he merely copied bits of this and that - and is attempting to invalidate technical appraisal based on the source (before it has occurred it would seem) Bruce is a money chaser and can think only in that reference, no real biggie to other than me jd psychobabble; Bruce is dishonest (makes up or shades data) and assumes all others are also, and applied that reasoning to me - focus directly on what not objective means to a professional generating and presenting data flip it around, if Bruce were honest would he be so inclined to assert that I am not ? if Bruce had his own test results would he still need to denigrate others' work ? another soul brother for Bruce, ****** is a vendor of the same ilk based on Bruce's statement I accept that he makes no pretense of objectivity, he speaks to advance his cause when he applies such to me I will object and ask him to substantiate his assertion of non-objectivity he is being asked now Last edited by BillA; 10-08-2005 at 09:18 AM. Reason: removed non-combatant name

10-07-2005, 02:35 PM	#15
flatline Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: uk Posts: 109	ic thanks for the clarificashon it seams after spending mutch of my life reading thru "our own" rad thred i lost mutsh of my stamina in the area of bitching i stand corrected __________________ "<pH> I'll stab you in the genitals with a rusty shank if you touch my computer stuff" "we are only 'mean' to the persistently ignorant, lazy, and anyone who questions us" BillA

10-07-2005, 03:34 PM	#18
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	thanks for the clarification Bruce others can now determine if you have made your case for my lack of objectivity

10-07-2005, 04:52 PM	#19
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	I dont have nearly a high enought blood alcohol level to read all this, I will read later. But I do think I will need some popcorn since this seems to be schedule 1 banter! __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-07-2005, 05:42 PM	#20
greenman100 Cooling Savant Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 414	how old are we? __________________ "Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for." --Socrates "greenman100 = obnoxious ass hole"-gazorp

10-07-2005, 05:47 PM	#21
pHaestus Big Player Making Big Money Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: irc.lostgeek.com #procooling.com Posts: 4,782	The thing to note here Joe is how they both come out the box swinging F-Bombs at one another. None of that gradual buildup to a flame war stuff that you commonly see in forums. This is not some run of the mill scuffle between nancy-boys; we're watching true internet badasses duke it out here! I'm gonna grab some of the Canadian tripple on the way home and also load up on snacks. I will also board up the windows because I'm pretty sure the Kool-Aid man is gonna be bustin in the house yelling "OHHHHH YEAAAAH" before too long. __________________ Getting paid like a biker with the best crank... -MF DOOM

10-07-2005, 06:20 PM	#22
RVWinkle Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Richmond Posts: 13	...so umm...howabout them new ram waterblocks? What'll those wacky Germans come up with next? p.s. Sorry to all parties involved, I kinda feel like I started this mess with my silly comments. I was just trying to detract the fanboys who were drooling over the latest toy. I meant no harm and both of you guys are part of the solid foundation of my favorite hobby.

10-07-2005, 06:24 PM	#23
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	no reason to be sorry, as pH said this is an epic thread so far __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

10-07-2005, 06:46 PM	#25
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	may have played out already Joe, Bruce and I have stated what we think - and why no big deal, and nothing new as it is exactly the same issue as JoeMac (sp ?) raised I just get huffy at flack from unfounded aspersions motivated by commercial interest I'm transparent, someone else does it and I'll probably bite the same bait the same way hi ho

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