New CSP Mag pumps... do they finally have something

[maxSaleen]

I had some spare time this morning so I decided to puruse the web and look at pumps. I went to c-systems site (c-systems.ca) and foudn that they have a new pump: the CSP-Mag. Their design eliminates the seal problem with the original pumps and it appears to have delt with the galvanic corrosion problem (though I feel that their could still be issues). Could the MCP350 have a competitor here? What do you guys think? :shrug:

[BillA]

the suggestion is laughable, and I'm laughing at you

ah the power of marketing to a gullible audience

[allnighter]

Skepticism is the word that comes to mind. I'll wait to see a competent review and still will sit out another year or so to be able to get some user input before I get to even think about buying another CSP pump.

[bobkoure]

On paper it sounds great.
- mag drive
- pump housing plastic
- combination sapphire / fluid bearings
- quieter than the 750
- 30 month warranty

But their shaft driven pumps sounded great on paper, too - and we know how that turned out.

Seems like they'd need to send a bunch of these off to review sites in order to start to overcome the reputation of the shaft drive ones - any signs that they've done that? Ph - they send you one? Lee?

[BillA]

here we go again
substituting reviews for long term experience
assuming warranty = quality

hello ?
anyone remember the MCP600 ?
"Designed by the ex-Iwaki chief engr, etc etc"
yea, and who had to identify the failure ? and its cause ? and its correction (generally) ?

[Nickd]

/* Deleted because when I re-read my post I realised most of it related to the 750 not the revised Mag version. Would be very interested to see some P-Q curves for the new version though I can't find any on the website. */

[MadHacker]

the RPM sensor is a nice feature...
a better way to track the failure of the pump?

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by unregistered

here we go again
substituting reviews for long term experience
assuming warranty = quality

Not what I said - just wondering if they'd sent any samples out, my thinking being that if this is just something spun by marketeers then there won't be any samples gone off to reviewers. If the engineering team actually thinks they have their problems licked, then maybe they'll send some.

Heck, you could make me look good "on paper". I found it interesting that they were quoting the same MTBF (maybe I mis-read that?) which would either indicate that their engineering folks exactly hit a goal (probably set by marketing), or it could mean...

[BillA]

was alluding to the mktg methods, not you bk
in any case a strange way to 'launch' a 'product'

[maxSaleen]

unregistered: I'm not for a second going to say that the CSP-Mag is a good pump or that it will be reliable. All I'm saying is that they have a good concept and that "wouldn't it be great if they pulled it off." Also I happen to own a MCP 600 (still hasn't failed) and a DDC. If I ever get the time to put thermal sensors in place I'll post some numbers.

Everyone else: I am just curious if anyone can spot a design flaw right off of the bat. I can only see one thing myself, though when I saw the original CSP I thought to myself "seals look kinda weak, hell the whole pump looks weak.... galvanic corrosion could be a huge issue."

The only thing I can spot so far is that Galvanic corrosion could still be an problem with some Al being exposed around the inlet/outlet. I would imagine the plastic OEM version would deal with this issue altogether.

[Cathar]

I'm still a little puzzled as to why the plastic cased solution is OEM only?

[JWFokker]

The OEM version looks like it has some aluminum left on it so I don't think there's any great benefit to using plastic, in regard to corrosion, unless they did the whole thing. Maybe the plastic version is cheaper?

[lolito_fr]

Large quantity minimum order required for the OEM plastic solution...

[ferdb]

Obviously they don't want to pay the 20-30k$ for the injection mold tooling needed for the all plastic one without a large order comittment. If it were me I wouldn't commit to injection mold tooling until I had a bit more track record on the design to identify long term problems anyway. Hopefully they can control their costs enough to maintain the original price point advantage they had with the CSP-750. It was a powerful advantage. I wish them luck, they are persistent and not unskilled.

[Hotseat]

Morning guys, looks like Bill is at it again, hence the reason I don't want to spend anytime around here. I had enough of trolls back in may video game days, but I said I would come by and give a update, and someone emailed me this "Bill is at it agian" link

First, we started to designed the MAG almost from the first day we started C-Systems, it has been in testing last 6 months, and has gone through 2 engineering reviews for C-Systems and there clients insurance companies.
And in case you didn't notice, Bill is suggesting a pump that uses ceramic bearings, and operates in magnetic suspension will not last.

The MAG, like the 750, was designed for the another company, based on there spec's (this is what AVT does). But unlike the 750, I included my own additional requirements, so that the pump could be used by all. The MAG was designed for high pressure and outlet restrictions. It is also very easy to adapt having a large flow, pressure, and wattage range to meet OEM requirements. We tried to give them something that could be easliy changed with market trends.

I suggested to C-Systems they use aluminum with an Anolok finish for general hobby home use, because of the different fittings used across the world.
Making the ports in plastic I believe would cause install issues with metal fittings.
I also suggested they use NPT and not NPT-F which also caused confusion.

There is a plastic version that is barbed and has no threads and hopefully no issues, and I understand from Dave that they may release this to all, but right now there busy filling current OEM orders, which use a specizied port, a stamped case, looks ugly, and would likely not fit your general needs.

The MAG has a 50,000 hour rating, but just as the DDR, this is fluid dependant.
You can't put swamp water in and expect it to last, just like any pump
I believe C-Systems has a 2-3 year warranty.

Anyone that has an issue with a 750, C-Systems has a support staff (Dave) and AVT will be sponsering a low cost upgrade program with C-Systems for anyone that has a 750 and needs a pump for very high restrictions.

Somewhat as an outsider, just a quick observation.
Why are you guys making more and more restrictive blocks?

Nothing in Dr. Shiping Yu's work suggests micro channel design will benefit from increased restricting flow?

Anyhow, back to the CAD station. At AVT we are developing the next generation DC-hydro pumps for active automotive suspensions. I tell you this, because some of this pump general tech may hit you guys in the future. There is recent bearing technology that maybe of use to you all. Will likely be patended and licensed to hell, like all automotive tech but still a good read.

Best to all, Dan.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by Hotseat

Why are you guys making more and more restrictive blocks?

I'm not totally sure that's true. AFAIK, the Swiftech 6000 is no more restrictive than the 5002 and the Storm no more than the Cascade. There has been a general progression towards blocks that are more and more effective at moving heat from one side of the block into the coolant (use the above pairs of blocks for examples) and if there is a trend towards their being more restrictive I would guess it's because of this.
Most folks here use this additional efficiency to keep CPUs a bit cooler (usually for overclocking), but you could use it, instead, to make radiator frontal area smaller (potential lower cost) or radiator air-flow smaller (potential lower noise).

Nothing in Dr. Shiping Yu's work suggests micro channel design will benefit from increased restricting flow?

You mean Dr. Zhiping Yu, right? Not trying to be picky, just the spelling difference may make it more difficult for anyone here trying to track down his work. I find nanotechnology interesting but am not sure how it applies to the current generation(s) of water blocks. Care to enlighten me?

... some of this pump general tech may hit you guys in the future. There is recent bearing technology that maybe of use to you all. ...

Active suspension is interesting stuff, too. I would have thought that active pumping (other than making up for losses if an air spring was used) wouldn't be necessary, just control of hydraulic valving (to control damping rates) and air valving (to control effective air volume and hence progressive spring rate). But then I'm basically an old-fogey springs-and-hydraulics kind of guy - and this is likely not the forum for this. I would love to hear what (in general) you're doing that is new on the pump bearing front. Got a link? Maybe just some hints?

Oh, and Bill isn't so much at it again as at it still - IMHO he's our resident cynic and does a good job keeping the rest of us honest. We still screw up (well, I still screw up) but it's mis-understanding and mis-calculation and mis-measurement, not any attempt to "bluff" or "fake" as Bill (and others) are there to spot it.

[Hotseat]

^ No I mean Shiping Yu, "Slip flow convection in Isoflux rectangular microchannels"
amoung other ASME micro channel research.

I still prefer the old FEA software, but his work on micro channels is well worth considering.

As too the suspension stuff we are working on, no it is Hydraulic not pneumatic and is DC based, not a power take off. Something like what we do with ABS.

Will reduce weight and total losses. The key of course is the pump and fluid, which is not ours, but as I indicated some vary cool tech
Alot of people are working on this, and we are just working off pre-spec's for rolling proof of concept.

Sorry if I suggested all where restrictive, it is just from what I have seem over Dave's shoulder, alot of them look VERY restrictive (he is doing impeller matching).
When I designed the 750, all the blocks we had where large channels, think you guys where just discovering micro-channel set-up.

Personally, I am not a big fan of micro-channels, as I believe you can get just as good of results with simple surface area / turb flow. But again, not my field, and not the way I can tell your industry is going.

[AngryAlpaca]

I'm not totally sure that's true. AFAIK, the Swiftech 6000 is no more restrictive than the 5002 and the Storm no more than the Cascade.

Originally Posted by Swiftech

The flow resistance of the MCW6000 is approximately twice that of the MCW5002, this is a consequence of the turbulence enhancements at the inlet.

Anyhow, where are the specs of this pump? I can't find them at the c-systems webpage. I hope this pump goes better than the last.

[Hotseat]

Nope- The MAG drive has a very wide range, so they can match flow / pressure to whats required per customers specs.

Since the unit can run safe, up to 10 watts, the output can be high flow, or high pressure, what ever is needed. The motor being a outer rotor type is very effecient.

I am still not sure what configuration C-Systems has planned.

[BillA]

Shiping Yu is the Tech Mgr (not actual title) at Corsair

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by Hotseat

As too the suspension stuff we are working on, no it is Hydraulic not pneumatic and is DC based, not a power take off. Something like what we do with ABS.

So no springs at all?

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no use in being a damn fool about it."

W. C. Fields? Thanks for setting me straight on the 6000 vs 5002. I could be wrong on Storm vs. Cascade as well...

[Hotseat]

No springs, just 4 active units, which can be configured in any geometric form, makes traditional suspension design old news. Thats right, no A-arms

Played around with this in my old racing / rally days. never could get it too work.
But the tech has come a long way, so when I heard about the contract I jumped at it.

Sometimes you need to lose money, to get in the door. When I studied the tech, it was clear they where close.

There are cars on the road right now, use 1/2 this system Bob.
It is all a matter of controling energy loss, and correcting for your own input loss.

[DryFire]

will we have the option of a threaded plastic housing? Also what is the estimated price?

And if there are multiple impellers housings and (perhaps) motors how will you meet the demand for all the different units (seems like it took forever for dtek to stock the pumps).

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by Hotseat

No springs, just 4 active units, which can be configured in any geometric form, makes traditional suspension design old news. Thats right, no A-arms

Hmmm... so wheels are moving up and down in a linear direction, not around a pivot point? (sorry - my background is motorcycles, no a-arms involved except for some very unusual front suspensions)

Played around with this in my old racing / rally days. never could get it too work.

Me too, but bike racing, and an electrical valves connecting fork internals to an external pneumatic reservoir is about as close as I ever got (mostly for handling anti-dive, which let me somewhat ignore that variable when picking a spring rate and damping pack combination). This might be particularly interesting for bike suspensions as, once you are no longer vertical, the spring and damping rates are wrong (not to mention move in the wrong direction). Bikes are odd beasts, though...

There are cars on the road right now, use 1/2 this system Bob.

Any chance of naming a model or two that I might run across here in the states? I'd love to go check one out...

[Hotseat]

^ Really, we should talk sometime
I believe ford, GM, and BMW have semi active systems based on the same concepts. Our client sells to all, and manufactors just the control system, values and pumps.

The systems are based on much of what you experienced, the idea being not to loose travel energy, but to store and control it's release, again much like ABS.

This is much different then what we played with long ago, which was total hydro control, with hi PSI pumps and super fast (for the time) processing. It was a dead end idea.

The new part is that it is DC based, which seems to be the focus now, given the energy issue is back. I think there is no question hyrdogen will be the future fuel, be it internal or fuel cell based. If you really look at it, there is no other direction we can go, hence the start of more electric based sub-systems.

There is currently alot of developement going on with these sub-systems. I have seem a very efficent electric based AC system of instance. It worked VERY well, and you should see it out soon

But hey, the biggest issue in automotive engineerig these days?

How do we get people out of there SUV's and back into small cars, before we run out of oil

**Dry your asking the wrong guy, not with C-Systems anymore.