Go Back   Pro/Forums > ProCooling Technical Discussions > Xtreme Cooling
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar JavaChat Mark Forums Read

Xtreme Cooling LN2, Dry Ice, Peltiers, etc... All the usual suspects

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 12-14-2002, 12:50 AM   #1
Natedog
Cooling Neophyte
 
Natedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 17
Default Mini-fridge chiller recharge

I have an old(94) GE minifridge that I am using as a chiller. It works very well(-30C water), but I want more. Since it is so old my guess is that it is using R12. Can I recharge the compressor with another freon? Which freon should I get?R404?
__________________
| DFI NF4 Ultra-D | 3800+ X2 | OCZ PC4000 (2x1gb) EB | Radeon X800GTO2 | PA160.1 Radiator| Aqua Via 1300 x2 pumps| Swiftech STORM waterblock| Antec P180 case| PC Power and Cooling 510watt psu| LynxTWO-B sound card|
Natedog is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-15-2002, 10:25 AM   #2
bowman1964
Cooling Savant
 
bowman1964's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: virginia usa
Posts: 126
Default

ok well if it has r12 you only have a few choices. r22 r502
you see r12 r22 r502 all use the same oil (mineral oil) so you can go with any of the 3 .but r502 is the coldest,but it boils so low it can cause the compressor to overheat if the condensor cannt handle the heat.so i would recommend r22 .it isnt priced too bad and any ac repair shop can charge it.
you can recharge with r134a or any of the other refrigerants like r404a but you will have to change the oil ,which can be a pain on a fridge.
i would reconmend r22.

i see you have been in a few differant forums asking this question .everyone giving you opinions but none of them have actually used r502. i use it as r22 r12 .so i am telling you the facts not just what you can read in a fridgerantion chart.
some of the guys mean well but they think they can learn the entire refridgerant field in a matter of months.

i hope i helped a little
__________________
xp2800barton@2712 226x12 dual bank 2x256 twinmos pc3200 8RDA epox full mods.vdd,vdimm,vcore.
custom r502 cooled unit.CPU running @-18C GPU -21C Chipset -20c
only one like it.in one case.
custom r502 cooling unit

3D2001SE 21315

3DMARK03 6659
bowman1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-15-2002, 06:04 PM   #3
aenigma
Immature Title Goes Here
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 81
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by bowman1964
ok well if it has r12 you only have a few choices. r22 r502
you see r12 r22 r502 all use the same oil (mineral oil) so you can go with any of the 3 .but r502 is the coldest,but it boils so low it can cause the compressor to overheat if the condensor cannt handle the heat.so i would recommend r22 .it isnt priced too bad and any ac repair shop can charge it.
you can recharge with r134a or any of the other refrigerants like r404a but you will have to change the oil ,which can be a pain on a fridge.
i would reconmend r22.

i see you have been in a few differant forums asking this question .everyone giving you opinions but none of them have actually used r502. i use it as r22 r12 .so i am telling you the facts not just what you can read in a fridgerantion chart.
some of the guys mean well but they think they can learn the entire refridgerant field in a matter of months.

i hope i helped a little
Ok then.So why are you recomending R134a if you "know the entire refrigerant field"?

You can use any refrigerant you want as long as you want to put a little time into it and flush the compressor.
I also recomend R22, very nice refrigerant.I haven't worked with R-502, but it seems petty nice.But never rule out using R290, very nice refrigerant if you can't get R22/R502 etc. or you can't afford it.
__________________
http://www.subz3ro.net

[H]opelessly
 Altered
 Results
 Destroy
 Overall
 Credibility
 Period
aenigma is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-15-2002, 07:36 PM   #4
bowman1964
Cooling Savant
 
bowman1964's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: virginia usa
Posts: 126
Default

Quote:
(by aenigma )Ok then.So why are you recomending R134a if you "know the entire refrigerant field"?
I AM GOING TO ONLY REPLY ONE TIME TO THIS.
NO WHERE DID I SAY I KNEW THE ENTIRE REFRIDGERANTION FIELD.BUT I HAVE OVER 20 YEARS IN DEALING WITH IT ....HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU?
I THOUGHT NOT.
BECAUSE I HAVE 20 YEARS IN THE AC AND MECHANICAL FIELD I NEVER SAID I KNOW IT ALL ..AND I NEVER WILL. BECAUSE I WILL ALWAYS CONTINUE TO LEARN UNTIL I AM PUT IN THE GROUND AND BURIED.
THESE ATTACKS ON PEOPLE FOR NO REASON MUST STOP.GROW UP AND REALIZE YOU STILL CAN LEARN FROM OTHERS.

NOW WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THE FORUM AND HELP PEOPLE NOT CRITICISE THEM.THIS DOES NOTHING TO HELP PEOPLE TO LEARN BUT DOES THE OPPOSITE.AND RUN PEOPLE OFF THE FORUMS BECAUSE THEY ARE SCARED TO ASK A QUESTION WITHOUT SOMEONE JUMPING ALL OVER THEM.
__________________
xp2800barton@2712 226x12 dual bank 2x256 twinmos pc3200 8RDA epox full mods.vdd,vdimm,vcore.
custom r502 cooled unit.CPU running @-18C GPU -21C Chipset -20c
only one like it.in one case.
custom r502 cooling unit

3D2001SE 21315

3DMARK03 6659
bowman1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-15-2002, 09:15 PM   #5
aenigma
Immature Title Goes Here
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 81
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by bowman1964
I AM GOING TO ONLY REPLY ONE TIME TO THIS.
NO WHERE DID I SAY I KNEW THE ENTIRE REFRIDGERANTION FIELD.BUT I HAVE OVER 20 YEARS IN DEALING WITH IT ....HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU?
I THOUGHT NOT.
BECAUSE I HAVE 20 YEARS IN THE AC AND MECHANICAL FIELD I NEVER SAID I KNOW IT ALL ..AND I NEVER WILL. BECAUSE I WILL ALWAYS CONTINUE TO LEARN UNTIL I AM PUT IN THE GROUND AND BURIED.
THESE ATTACKS ON PEOPLE FOR NO REASON MUST STOP.GROW UP AND REALIZE YOU STILL CAN LEARN FROM OTHERS.

NOW WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THE FORUM AND HELP PEOPLE NOT CRITICISE THEM.THIS DOES NOTHING TO HELP PEOPLE TO LEARN BUT DOES THE OPPOSITE.AND RUN PEOPLE OFF THE FORUMS BECAUSE THEY ARE SCARED TO ASK A QUESTION WITHOUT SOMEONE JUMPING ALL OVER THEM.
Uh huh, who is the one attacking who?First of all you were acting people didnt know what they were talking about when you recomended R502.I just replied joking around with you, see funny ha ha, its a joke.Why dont you calm down and realize what a joke is and what an attack is.I know you, so I feel I can joke around with you.

By the way that whole 20 years in the field means nothing IMO.As most a/c techs don't know anything, now remember I am now saying you don't, just that most of them don't.I know an HVAC tech that has been doing it for 40 years, and he doesnt even know the basics.He was absolutely stumped when I told him about making a waterchiller!

Calm down
__________________
http://www.subz3ro.net

[H]opelessly
 Altered
 Results
 Destroy
 Overall
 Credibility
 Period

Last edited by aenigma; 12-15-2002 at 09:25 PM.
aenigma is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-15-2002, 09:30 PM   #6
Mr. Baz
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by bowman1964
I AM GOING TO ONLY REPLY ONE TIME TO THIS.
NO WHERE DID I SAY I KNEW THE ENTIRE REFRIDGERANTION FIELD.BUT I HAVE OVER 20 YEARS IN DEALING WITH IT ....HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU?
I THOUGHT NOT.
BECAUSE I HAVE 20 YEARS IN THE AC AND MECHANICAL FIELD I NEVER SAID I KNOW IT ALL ..AND I NEVER WILL. BECAUSE I WILL ALWAYS CONTINUE TO LEARN UNTIL I AM PUT IN THE GROUND AND BURIED.
THESE ATTACKS ON PEOPLE FOR NO REASON MUST STOP.GROW UP AND REALIZE YOU STILL CAN LEARN FROM OTHERS.

NOW WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THE FORUM AND HELP PEOPLE NOT CRITICISE THEM.THIS DOES NOTHING TO HELP PEOPLE TO LEARN BUT DOES THE OPPOSITE.AND RUN PEOPLE OFF THE FORUMS BECAUSE THEY ARE SCARED TO ASK A QUESTION WITHOUT SOMEONE JUMPING ALL OVER THEM.
Geez dude. Settle down. And what's with the all caps? I didn't read it as a direct attack on you...it sounded sarcastic. Most people in their respective fields feel they know more than the person next to them because they have more "experience" in that area. Let me be the one to say experience does NOT equal knowledge. I work in the computer/technical/networking arena. There are people that have been working it for 20+yrs and still don't know as much as I know....and I've only been in it for maybe 1/4 the amount of time.

BACK ON TOPIC>>

You can use just about any refrigerant....but you'll have some problems there.
By law, most places will only sell R22, R404, R502, R12, to licensed individuals. This means you will either have to obtain a license through your state, or just use a refrigerant that is readily availabe and cheap. Some people still have R12; R134 can be purchased anywhere, and R290 is cheap and it's EVERYWHERE. It works great too. It has the same boiling temp (roughly) -42*F or R22, but not as good a heat capacity.
For a hobbyist use, I would recommend you use R290 first. Get yourself acqainted with refrigeration first and familurize yourself with it. After a lot of practice, and you think you're comfortable with it, then venture into using different refrigerants. By then, you will know enough to safely experiment on your own, and not spend so much time asking questions on forums.
Mr. Baz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 10:49 AM   #7
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

First off, the caps are because Bowman types from work (sometimes) from a caps locked keyboard; no insult intended.

2: R134a is not compatible (oil wise) with R12/R22, and in fact, if you mix both oils, you may create an acid. R134a is a good option (although not as good as R22), but as Bowman stated, it will require "most excellent" cleaning, for the reason above. It is usually best to start from scratch, instead of switching from R22 to R134A. (Google for horror stories)

3: license: you can order one online, but it'll only give you access to some refrigerants (see |Punisher|'s thread).

4: Bowman is our most respected phase-change member, and he has more experience with it, and has achieved colder temperatures than anyone else you'll find (LN2 excluded).

5: an A/C tech can't know everything about everything, simply because they will usually end up working with only one or two refrigerants. If you want an engineer, google. A tech will however be able to tell you the do's and don'ts of a particular setup, as far as the refrigerant is concerned.

Aenigma/Mr Baz: if you were really concerned, you would have stated why R134A is not a good substitute for R12/R22. Also, flushing the compressor is NOT a proper way to clean out an R12/R22 system for an R134A upgrade. Also, you failed to mention that R290 is propane, and that it's best to use it in combination with something else, like R134A, especially for someone starting to experiment.

Some of these refrigerants are available at auto part stores.

Natedog: let us know where you're headed!
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 11:03 AM   #8
NeosPirahnis
Cooling Neophyte
 
NeosPirahnis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 78
Default

I know I am not contributing anything positive to this, but comments that are not related to the topic of the thread do not belong. I have learned a great deal by just reading what ben and bowman have to say in the various cooling forums around the 'community'. Reading information from these two has brought about a huge interest in me with reguards to refridgeration, cooling and the general science of this all. And I'm willing to be Bowmans 20 years are 'worth' just a little bit more than your wanton ability to craptalk.


Please unless you have something to contribute please dont post anything.

Yes I realize I'm being a hypocrite, but I value what these two people have to say, not a random miscrient's screw-around commentary.
NeosPirahnis is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 11:43 AM   #9
Mr. Baz
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 18
Default

Originally posted by bigben2k
First off, the caps are because Bowman types from work (sometimes) from a caps locked keyboard; no insult intended.

2: R134a is not compatible (oil wise) with R12/R22, and in fact, if you mix both oils, you may create an acid. R134a is a good option (although not as good as R22), but as Bowman stated, it will require "most excellent" cleaning, for the reason above. It is usually best to start from scratch, instead of switching from R22 to R134A. (Google for horror stories)
You mix the oils and you get a wax. Mix POE with water and you get the acid that will eat the motor windings of your compressor.

3: license: you can order one online, but it'll only give you access to some refrigerants (see |Punisher|'s thread).
It's better to go through your local city/state office. Some online licenses won't be valid in all areas.

4: Bowman is our most respected phase-change member, and he has more experience with it, and has achieved colder temperatures than anyone else you'll find (LN2 excluded).
LN2 is lower than -120*F....I don't think he's gone that cold with refrigerant. I've seen other DIY units that have colder load temps...but that doesn't matter. I still like Bowman and he does good work.

5: an A/C tech can't know everything about everything, simply because they will usually end up working with only one or two refrigerants. If you want an engineer, google. A tech will however be able to tell you the do's and don'ts of a particular setup, as far as the refrigerant is concerned.
I spoke with a tech at A/C engineers ( a local a/c place) and he was baffled by the work I had done on my unit. They know a lot, but in a different area.

Aenigma/Mr Baz: if you were really concerned, you would have stated why R134A is not a good substitute for R12/R22. Also, flushing the compressor is NOT a proper way to clean out an R12/R22 system for an R134A upgrade. Also, you failed to mention that R290 is propane, and that it's best to use it in combination with something else, like R134A, especially for someone starting to experiment.
It was already stated that R134 doesn't work as good as R290 or R22, so no need to reiterate it. They make flushing kits to change oils in compressors, so it is perfectly possible and has been done before.
R290 can be used by itself. You don't need to mix it with anything.
Mr. Baz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 11:57 AM   #10
Mr. Baz
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by NeosPirahnis
I know I am not contributing anything positive to this, but comments that are not related to the topic of the thread do not belong. I have learned a great deal by just reading what ben and bowman have to say in the various cooling forums around the 'community'. Reading information from these two has brought about a huge interest in me with reguards to refridgeration, cooling and the general science of this all. And I'm willing to be Bowmans 20 years are 'worth' just a little bit more than your wanton ability to craptalk.


Please unless you have something to contribute please dont post anything.

Yes I realize I'm being a hypocrite, but I value what these two people have to say, not a random miscrient's screw-around commentary.
I agree, and you'll notice my post included no "craptalk" or "screw-around commentary". My post was pry the first post that had the most useful information.
I say we get this thread back on topic and start posting useful information.
Mr. Baz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 03:53 PM   #11
ymboc
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 81
Default

Quote:
[...in an earlier post, by aenigma...]
Ok then.So why are you recomending R134a if you "know the entire refrigerant field"?
[...snip...]
By the way that whole 20 years in the field means nothing IMO.As most a/c techs don't know anything, now remember I am now saying you don't, just that most of them don't.I know an HVAC tech that has been doing it for 40 years, and he doesnt even know the basics.He was absolutely stumped when I told him about making a waterchiller!
[...and in a more recent post by Mr. Baz...]
LN2 is lower than -120*F....I don't think he's gone that cold with refrigerant. I've seen other DIY units that have colder load temps...but that doesn't matter. I still like Bowman and he does good work.
[...snip...]
I Spoke with a tech at A/C engineers ( a local a/c place) and he was baffled by the work I had done on my unit. They know a lot, but in a different area.
Alright, that's it... I nearly replied to your (in my opinion) patronizing tone yesterday but decided to cancel the reply due to my own "am I actually contributing to this thread with this post" policy...

aenigma:
In reference to your first post, your the tone of your post is patronizing. Period. If were infact trying to be something other than patronizing (helpful, perhaps?), you really have to work on your delivery.

Note that if you re-read bowman's first post he specifically did *not* recommend replacing R12 with R134a due to the PITA it would be to change the oils.

Mr. Baz:
In reference to your more recent post,... More patronizing. BigBen specifically excluded LN2 from his statement, yet you go rub his nose in it. Same goes for the lower load temp reference for the DIY units. Is it common practise now to just shrug everything off and say, "eh, I've seen better"

The following was originally directed only at Baz, but in hindsight should be directed at both aenigma and Baz, but in a more general sense.
And now in reference to the A/C tech comment you made. You spoke to *ONE* A/C tech at one place... and you're using that *ONE* experience to discredit *ALL OTHER* other A/C techs everywhere? Really. Truism: A/C Tech's are people - they come in different sizes, knowledgebases and experience levels.

Consider for a moment that another reason 'your' A/C tech seemed baffled could possibly have been because the idea wasn't communicated effectively.ie: A possibility, but not necessarily the case.

I apologize for not actually contributing in reference to the topic starter's original post. But everytime I see some person rip into another needlessly on a forum, it just makes my blood boil. Yes, I did rip into the two members quoted here, but I am of the opinion that it was needed

[EDIT for mislabeled quotes the resulting misdirected coments and a few clarifications - I appologize for the confusion]

Last edited by ymboc; 12-16-2002 at 10:17 PM.
ymboc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 04:36 PM   #12
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

Thanks ymboc.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Baz
For a hobbyist use, I would recommend you use R290 first.
I would not recomment R290 to start with. R22 would be a much better/safer way to start experimenting with.

Here's the link to |Punisher|'s thread (who also tried R290).
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 04:53 PM   #13
Mr. Baz
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by ymboc
Alright, that's it... I nearly replied to your (in my opinion) patronizing tone yesterday but decided to cancel the reply due to my own "am I actually contributing to this thread with this post" policy...

In reference to your first post, your the tone of your post is patronizing. Period. If were infact trying to be something other than patronizing (helpful, perhaps?), you really have to work on your delivery.

Note that if you re-read bowman's first post he specifically did *not* recommend replacing R12 with R134a due to the PITA it would be to change the oils.

In reference to your more recent post,... More patronizing. BigBen specifically excluded LN2 from his statement, yet you go rub nose in it too. Same goes for the lower load temp reference for the DIY units. Is it common practise now to just shrug everything off and say, "eh, I've seen better"

And now in reference to the A/C tech comment you made. You spoke to *ONE* A/C tech at one place... and you're using that *ONE* experience to discredit *ALL OTHER* other A/C techs everywhere? Really. Truism: A/C Tech's are people - they come in different sizes, knowledgebases and experience levels.

Consider for a moment that another reason 'your' A/C tech seemed baffled could possibly have been because the idea wasn't communicated effectively.

I apologize for not actually contributing in reference to the topic starter's original post. But everytime I see some person rip into another needlessly on a forum, it just makes my blood boil.
wow dude, chill. That first quote was from aenigma, not me.
In no way am I trying to be patronizing. I'm just stating the facts straight out. The information I post IS helpful.

I didn't say bowman's setup sucked. I just said there is no such thing as "the almighty cooling GOD"....and if you read closely you'll notice I said I liked bowman's work, as it is realy quality stuff.

I'll make it clearer....EVERY a/c engineer and tech I've talked to was able to follow my idea...but were kinda baffled, yet were VERY intersested in the unit. I had one actually request I let him know how everything turned out. Really nice guy he was.

I'm not ripping into anyone. I'm nearly correcting some minor flaws in other people's posts. I would hate to have a new guy working on making his own DIY system give up hope cause he got confused and tried something that someone told him to do....but it didn't turn out right.

From the looks of it.....you're the one ripping into ME....yet I have yet to say anything derrogatory towards anyone.....I don't get it...nice welcome note eh?:shrug:


BACK TO SUBJECT
--------------------------------------------------------

Oh yeah. Bigben. R22 would be GREAT. It is a relatively safe refrigerant and it has a better heat capacity than R290. I agree with you on that one. If you can get R22, GO FOR IT.
It's just in my area it is a royal PAIN to get a hold of the stuff, and online places are $$ and require a license most of the time.
It's just R290 makes a great medium if you can't get access to anything else.
I AM converting to R22 once I get my refrigerant license from my state.

R290 is still safe as long as you use it in a well ventillated place, but for those that want safety to the max, I agree, go R22. It's safer and has better heat capacity. It's worth the $$ if you can get it.
Mr. Baz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 05:01 PM   #14
Mr. Baz
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by ymboc

In reference to your more recent post,... More patronizing. BigBen specifically excluded LN2 from his statement, yet you go rub nose in it too. Same goes for the lower load temp reference for the DIY units. Is it common practise now to just shrug everything off and say, "eh, I've seen better"
I just read over it and noticed Bigben "excluded" LN2, I thought it read INcluded. That's my bad on that one....I was tired and studying for a Physics final last night....
Mr. Baz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 05:23 PM   #15
aenigma
Immature Title Goes Here
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 81
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
First off, the caps are because Bowman types from work (sometimes) from a caps locked keyboard; no insult intended.

2: R134a is not compatible (oil wise) with R12/R22, and in fact, if you mix both oils, you may create an acid. R134a is a good option (although not as good as R22), but as Bowman stated, it will require "most excellent" cleaning, for the reason above. It is usually best to start from scratch, instead of switching from R22 to R134A. (Google for horror stories)

3: license: you can order one online, but it'll only give you access to some refrigerants (see |Punisher|'s thread).

4: Bowman is our most respected phase-change member, and he has more experience with it, and has achieved colder temperatures than anyone else you'll find (LN2 excluded).

5: an A/C tech can't know everything about everything, simply because they will usually end up working with only one or two refrigerants. If you want an engineer, google. A tech will however be able to tell you the do's and don'ts of a particular setup, as far as the refrigerant is concerned.

Aenigma/Mr Baz: if you were really concerned, you would have stated why R134A is not a good substitute for R12/R22. Also, flushing the compressor is NOT a proper way to clean out an R12/R22 system for an R134A upgrade. Also, you failed to mention that R290 is propane, and that it's best to use it in combination with something else, like R134A, especially for someone starting to experiment.

Some of these refrigerants are available at auto part stores.

Natedog: let us know where you're headed!
Wow nice misinformation.

R134a isn't compatible of course, but it can be flushed out VERY easily.How often do you work with this stuff?How often do you use POE in place of mineral oil?Thats what I thought...

Punisher?Ok I will just ignore that thank you very much.
An a/c tech only knows what he needs to know to work on air conditioners.Thats it, just talk to some of them sometimes.
By the way bowman said he was in the field for 20 years, yet he said he wasnt working with it, he has just been around it.When your just around it, you usually learn more as it is not a job, but a hobby.

Yes of course bowman is your respected phase change guru/gawd he is the only one that posts here, and he knows his stuff.But he isnt getting the lowest temperatures.For instance I have already had cascade and 2 stage split level systems going...
But he is definately getting impressive temperatures.

Ok you don't know why r134a isnt a good refrigerant?Lets take a look at its remarkable boiling point, a whopping -25c.R290 is -42f, cheap, easy to get.Plus it will not explode, I am always working with it.If you know what your doing, and your not a total idiot, you will not have any problems.You do NOT mix it with anything.I will say again, it is very easy to flush a compressor.

You know, just because you are sheltered and only post here, does not mean that bowman is the only one that knows about refrigeration.Why don't you just check out phase-change.com forums?

Mr. Baz:
I agree, R22 is damn good if you can get it, but R290 is better for practicing, hands down.Why practice with an expensive hard to get refrigerant when you can get propane very cheap and easy?I don't know what these people have against propane...

Oh yes by the way, what refrigerant do you guys use in your direct die systems?You recomend R22 like it is at the corner grocery store, when in fact you need a license, and where I am, it is $150 for a 30lb tank.
__________________
http://www.subz3ro.net

[H]opelessly
 Altered
 Results
 Destroy
 Overall
 Credibility
 Period

Last edited by aenigma; 12-16-2002 at 05:35 PM.
aenigma is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 05:43 PM   #16
aenigma
Immature Title Goes Here
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 81
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by ymboc

And now in reference to the A/C tech comment you made. You spoke to *ONE* A/C tech at one place... and you're using that *ONE* experience to discredit *ALL OTHER* other A/C techs everywhere? Really. Truism: A/C Tech's are people - they come in different sizes, knowledgebases and experience levels.

Consider for a moment that another reason 'your' A/C tech seemed baffled could possibly have been because the idea wasn't communicated effectively.
So, how many a/c techs/hvac techs have YOU talked to?90% of the a/c techs or HVAC techs will only know what they do, which is repairing air conditioners refrigerators/freezers.There may be a few that actually enjoy it as a hobby, and try to learn everything they can.But, that usually is not the case.They just know enough to make money and support themselves.


I agree with your "Truism: A/C Tech's are people - they come in differant sizes, knowledgebases and experiance levels"

I disagree with the comment about him not communicating properly, I think you need to go talk to an hvac tech.Have you ever been to a computer shop with the so called "techs" trying to tell you SDRam is better than DDR, and things like that?Well, that is the same thing as asking an a/c tech how to make a direct die system.They don't know, and they go off telling you what they DO know.I wasted 4 hours over at an HVAC tech, so much fun.

But he also said that I could get -100f temps by using a good condenser
__________________
http://www.subz3ro.net

[H]opelessly
 Altered
 Results
 Destroy
 Overall
 Credibility
 Period
aenigma is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 06:27 PM   #17
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

Pfew... some more misinfo!

I think everyone knows that R134A is one of the most handicapped of all popular refrigerants. (if anyone else didn't, now you know!).

As for R290, here's the MSDS for it, ya'll can judge for yourself: R290 MSDS . In short, it's not so much using it that's a problem, it's storing and handling it. You should know how easy it is to have a refrigerant leak, especially in a home made/modded system.

I think it's clear that R290 is OTHERWISE a good choice.

Here's a link describing (to some extent) some popular refrigerants.

Here's a link for the DIYer.

Here's a fat PDF listing most refrigerants.

Here's a freeware one can download to calculate the pressure effect on some refrigerants. Here's a review of the software (!).


You seemed to have missed ymboc's point: talking to ONE person isn't anywhere near enough of a good sample to make a judgement, and certainly not enough to make a generalization.

If spending 4 hours with an HVAC tech didn't get you anywhere, well, I'm sorry! Try somewhere else.

(For the record, I post at many other forums)


I'm going to go read a paper now... and see who else blew themselves up!
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 06:43 PM   #18
Mr. Baz
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 18
Default

Cool links there man.

But you're still off on using R290. It is not explosive. It's not even labeled as explosive. It's FLAMMABLE. It won't burn without oxygen. Storing is no problem. If you've got a leak in your system....it's either so small that you didn't notice it when testing it (and therefore barely letting any R290 out) or you didn't test properly.
R290 is mixed with another chemical that I don't feel like typing out right now, that makes it smell nasty. If you have a leak, it will be obvious.

What refrigerant do you use Bigben?
Mr. Baz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 07:06 PM   #19
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

I'm always looking forward to being proved wrong!

Ok, so what's the difference between flammable and explosive?

I tend to agree with you: if there is a leak, it should be detectable, either from the smell or the performance loss however, I think that the Germen township fire department (Indiana) would disagree with you: Link

[edit]
Here a set of facts about propane.
[/edit]

BTW, the additive is called Mercaptan.

Here's yet another link to a thread about some poor fellow who's having problems with a propane heater. (note: there is a difference between a gas line in a house, and a propane tank, but not much)


Right now, I'm living up to my avatar name: I don't use any refrigerant, except for the one in my refrigerator! I'll be doing that next year.

Last edited by bigben2k; 12-16-2002 at 07:11 PM.
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 07:29 PM   #20
Mr. Baz
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 18
Default

So the rangers intentially set a 100+lb propane tank on fire and put it out. If it was explosive, they would not be that close, and the entire tank would go 'KABOOM'.

Propane is flammable, yes. This is a common fact.

Show me an article where pure propane EXPLODED and I will believe you. (does not include manufacturing plants, as they also store massive amounts of oxygen and other chemicals that cause the explosion, and not the propane itself).

You can't dog it until you use it. You know there IS a refrigerant R290. It's a commercially used refrigerant too. Just not very common. The refrigerant R290 is the same thing as propane, just refined better.

When you start on your own DIY project, you'll understand where aenigma, bowman, and I are coming from.
Mr. Baz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 07:54 PM   #21
bigben2k
Responsible for 2%
of all the posts here.
 
bigben2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Texas, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,302
Default

I see your point.

Webster's definitions:
Flammable: capable of being easily ignited and of burning quickly

Explosive: relating to, characterized by, or operated by explosion (a large-scale, rapid, or spectacular expansion or bursting out or forth)

In short, it's flammable if it can easily be set on fire. It's explosive if the combustion results in a large/quick expansion of volume.

Section 3 of the MSDS states: "Extremely flammable liquified gas".

Section 5 states: "exposure to fire may cause containers to rupture/explode"

Ok, so when propane burns, it doesn't expand quickly in volume, but it does expand. (the section 5 note probably applies to all tanks anyways). We certainly wouldn't want a propane tank to rupture.

So the fire dept must have opened the tank to let some pressure out (hey look, they did!).


Again, in all fairness, there is a very narrow range of conditions required to light up propane. Even when it is lit, it will not rapidly expand in volume.

Here's an example of how to light up propane (beyond the torch...).
bigben2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 07:58 PM   #22
Natedog
Cooling Neophyte
 
Natedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 17
Default

Bowman- in your project thread you mentioned having to change the length of the capillary tube when you changed to from R22 to R502. Would I need to do that also? If I could get ahold of R22 or R502, which one would you recommend?
__________________
| DFI NF4 Ultra-D | 3800+ X2 | OCZ PC4000 (2x1gb) EB | Radeon X800GTO2 | PA160.1 Radiator| Aqua Via 1300 x2 pumps| Swiftech STORM waterblock| Antec P180 case| PC Power and Cooling 510watt psu| LynxTWO-B sound card|
Natedog is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 08:17 PM   #23
Mr. Baz
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
I see your point.

Webster's definitions:
Flammable: capable of being easily ignited and of burning quickly

Explosive: relating to, characterized by, or operated by explosion (a large-scale, rapid, or spectacular expansion or bursting out or forth)

In short, it's flammable if it can easily be set on fire. It's explosive if the combustion results in a large/quick expansion of volume.

Section 3 of the MSDS states: "Extremely flammable liquified gas".

Section 5 states: "exposure to fire may cause containers to rupture/explode"

Ok, so when propane burns, it doesn't expand quickly in volume, but it does expand. (the section 5 note probably applies to all tanks anyways). We certainly wouldn't want a propane tank to rupture.

So the fire dept must have opened the tank to let some pressure out (hey look, they did!).


Again, in all fairness, there is a very narrow range of conditions required to light up propane. Even when it is lit, it will not rapidly expand in volume.

Here's an example of how to light up propane (beyond the torch...).
Yeah. I thought of a scenario.
You leave a 50lb tank of propane in your garage. All entrances are closed...and you didn't close the valve all the way.
The propane would leak out and fill the garage, while mixing with the air in the garage. Now it is extremely dangerous. All you'd have to do is walk out and "*snif* smells like propane out here.....I think I need a smoke....*BOOM* "
Then that would cause an explosion...but the same would happen if you left an open can of gasoline in your garage.

NO MATTER WHAT....USE COMMON SENSE!!!
Like Bigben said....I don't wanna get on the forums one day to find someone 'sectioned' off part of their house cause they weren't taking the propper safety precautions.
Mr. Baz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 08:20 PM   #24
Mr. Baz
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by bigben2k
[B
Here's an example of how to light up propane (beyond the torch...). [/b]
Lemmie guess. He pressurized the block with *mapp* gas and then held a flame around the joints to see if it leaked. HAHAHA
While that was a good idea....all he had to do was leave the block presurized with an attached gauge (I'm assuming he used a manifold set to charge the block) and let it sit overnight or so. Then check the pressure in the morning.

edit: I'd still do the "flame test" just for kicks though....of course wearing the propper gloves.
Mr. Baz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-16-2002, 08:26 PM   #25
Mr. Baz
Cooling Neophyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Natedog
Bowman- in your project thread you mentioned having to change the length of the capillary tube when you changed to from R22 to R502. Would I need to do that also? If I could get ahold of R22 or R502, which one would you recommend?
R502 would be bitching....except you need a license to buy it...and...well...lemmie let the link speak for itself.
http://www.r22.org/prod_list.php?mai...ondgroup=R-502

If you can get some...GET IT. You could have some fun experimenting with it.
Mr. Baz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(C) 2005 ProCooling.com
If we in some way offend you, insult you or your people, screw your mom, beat up your dad, or poop on your porch... we're sorry... we were probably really drunk...
Oh and dont steal our content bitches! Don't give us a reason to pee in your open car window this summer...