newbie on procooling.com

*GBG*uggbash · 09-25-2002, 07:45 PM

This is a great site from what i can tell, the best so far!

I`m fairly new into cooling and i have just recently begun to understand the basics.

anyway my first project will be this :

House Water Cooling!

My house system will give me a 202.8 g/h (768.6 l/h) water flow and a constant water temperature of 62.6 fahrenheit (17 celsius) to play with.

Ofcourse the drawback is the water bill, but i think it will be enough with a weak water flow of about 50/gh (189.5 l/h). It will then cost me about 0.15 $ for one hour cooling.

I pay one dollar for one m*3 of water (0.028 $ for one ft*3), what do you guys pay?

With my "open system" i will finnish of all watts my water takes for a ride. This will allow me to use a peltier with ease and with superior performance.

what do you guys think?

nikhsub1 · 09-25-2002, 07:50 PM

I think for part time use, this idea would be fun but, a big but, it is not practical and very wasteful. If you will be pelt cooling, a good closed loop system with a good radiator will do you very well. It may be just me ( I am environmentally friendy) but to run "house" water thru the system full time is just a waste of H20.

ambient · 09-25-2002, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nikhsub1
I think for part time use, this idea would be fun but, a big but, it is not practical and very wasteful. If you will be pelt cooling, a good closed loop system with a good radiator will do you very well. It may be just me ( I am environmentally friendy) but to run "house" water thru the system full time is just a waste of H20.

agreed

*GBG*uggbash · 09-25-2002, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nikhsub1
I think for part time use, this idea would be fun but, a big but, it is not practical and very wasteful. If you will be pelt cooling, a good closed loop system with a good radiator will do you very well. It may be just me ( I am environmentally friendy) but to run "house" water thru the system full time is just a waste of H20.

I can agree with wasteful, but not practical? im aware of that a closed system can support effective peltiers, but not so easy/safe as my system. I think its more environmentally harmful to drink a coce than waste tons of water.

Actually i think its a environmentally friendly technique.

nikhsub1 · 09-25-2002, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by *GBG*uggbash
I can agree with wasteful, but not practical? im aware of that a closed system can support effective peltiers, but not so easy/safe as my system. I think its more environmentally harmful to drink a coce than waste tons of water.

Yeah, not practical. What if you want to MOVE your computer, are you gonna have 200ft. water lines? A self contained system is ALWAYS the most practical. I guess we just have different oppinions on practicality, but we ALL agree it is wasteful.

mo · 09-25-2002, 08:27 PM

hehe. thats an interesting statement. Keep in mind I come from a culture where water is so scarce, it isnt supplied by the government except irrregularly 1-2 days a week. People stock on those days in a water tank , and live off that water tank to drink, clean, cook etc.. until the water comes again. In dry summers it gets a worse.

Anyways, You might save on money short term, but a year down the line you would have spent the cost of a pump and radiator and more. Thats not to mention that water from the tap is going to messup your water blocks with calcium buildup and many many lovely microscopic organisms. Oh, and did I mention the bubbles? Mucho mucho bubbles

*GBG*uggbash · 09-25-2002, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mo
Anyways, You might save on money short term, but a year down the line you would have spent the cost of a pump and radiator and more. Thats not to mention that water from the tap is going to messup your water blocks with calcium buildup and many many lovely microscopic organisms. Oh, and did I mention the bubbles? Mucho mucho bubbles

Who have talked about saving money?, the waterblocks will be fine. There will be less bubbles in my system. No bubbles at all, my system have a preassure of 7kg/cen*2, where would the air come from? from your biased mind perhaps?

nikhsub1 · 09-25-2002, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by *GBG*uggbash
Who have talked about saving money?, the waterblocks will be fine. There will be less bubbles in my system. No bubbles at all, my system have a preassure of 7kg/cen*2, where would the air come from? from your biased mind perhaps?

There is NO NEED for this to become a flame war! Some people have VERY strong oppinions on matters of environment. *GBG*uggbash, I don't think ANYONE here will think your idea is a good one for the long term. For testing etc. it is a GOOD idea as water temps remain constant. It is just such a waste and will get you little gain over a good closed loop system, period.

bigben2k · 09-25-2002, 09:20 PM

I used to pay about 30 cents per meter cube, and I still would not use it to cool a PC.

A cubic meter of water is about 264 gallons. If you use 200 gallons per hour, you would be using 1'752'000 gallons per year (assuming always on). That's 6636 cubic meters, and it'll cost you $1'000 per year (15 cents /m^3).

Keep in mind that even though you measured 200 gph out of your faucet (I assume), the restrictions within your rig will bring that down quite dramatically, possibly even lower than 50 gph.

Also, you would have to add an electric valve, to shut off your water supply, when you turn off your PC.

There is an advantage to using 10 to 15 deg C water, but you can do that with a water chiller, or a dehumidifier, with better performance.

Welcome to ProCooling

*GBG*uggbash · 09-26-2002, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
I used to pay about 30 cents per meter cube, and I still would not use it to cool a PC.

A cubic meter of water is about 264 gallons. If you use 200 gallons per hour, you would be using 1'752'000 gallons per year (assuming always on). That's 6636 cubic meters, and it'll cost you $1'000 per year (15 cents /m^3).

Keep in mind that even though you measured 200 gph out of your faucet (I assume), the restrictions within your rig will bring that down quite dramatically, possibly even lower than 50 gph.

Also, you would have to add an electric valve, to shut off your water supply, when you turn off your PC.

There is an advantage to using 10 to 15 deg C water, but you can do that with a water chiller, or a dehumidifier, with better performance.

Welcome to ProCooling

Well my bill will land at about 400$/year, why would my open water system be slower than closed systems?. Why would i nead a electric valve? a standard valve will do fine. My water is not 10 to 15 its 17, and it will not change much over the seasons.

thank you for the welcome

ChrioN · 09-26-2002, 06:10 AM

*GBG*uggbash I'm from Gothenburg too!

Hänger du mycket på sweclockers.com?

bigben2k · 09-26-2002, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by *GBG*uggbash
Well my bill will land at about 400$/year, why would my open water system be slower than closed systems?. Why would i nead a electric valve? a standard valve will do fine. My water is not 10 to 15 its 17, and it will not change much over the seasons.

thank you for the welcome

I don't know how you get to $400 per year, but either way, you can do better with $400. I think the point has been made.

The electric valve isn't necessary, but I just can't picture anyone taking the time to turn that faucet on, and then off, along with the computer. I think it's more likely that it would remain on.

At 17 deg C, that water might bring your CPU temp down by a couple of degrees. I just don't see how $400/year is of any benefit, but hey, that's just me.

Good luck.

*GBG*uggbash · 09-26-2002, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrioN
*GBG*uggbash I'm from Gothenburg too!

Great!

Originally posted by ChrioN
*Hänger du mycket på sweclockers.com?

Hänger du mycket på sweclockers.com? = Do you hang around a lot on sweclockers.com?

Yes, the best Swedish site i think!

myv65 · 09-26-2002, 09:51 AM

Another "welcome to the forums". I spent a couple of months in Gävle back in 2000. Glad darn near everyone there speaks English.

From a cost standpoint, you are facing a losing proposition. Even at 50 gph and your quoted cost of $400/year, that's way more than a "conventional" system with pump and radiator. Figuring about 42 watts for a pump and fans equates to 1 kW-hr/day. I pay around 7 cents per kW-hr, so $0.07 * 365 = $25.55 per year.

You mentioned peltier. I'm assuming you would have it directly on the chip and use the water to cool it. In this case, the difference in performance using 17°C water vs, say 30°C water is certainly measureable. But how much more do you suppose you would gain using tap water vs radiator-cooled water? I'd wager keeping radiator-cooled water below 30°C would be no challenge for you.

You could also consider even lower flow rates. At 25 gph, the water would warm about 1°C for every 75 watts you dump into it. Even a high-end CPU with peltier would load you up with no more than 225 watts, so a 3°C temperature rise. Now your cost is $200/year. Consider a 6°C rise and your cost is $100/year. At these low flows, you would need a block that was efficient, but it's doable.

Well, the choice is yours. If nothing else, folks here will be curious to know how things turn out for you.

airspirit · 09-26-2002, 10:23 AM

Dude, if you really want to do that kind of thing, just do a dual loop system. Fill up a swimming pool with water (either the kiddie type or the real thing) and run the cooling loop from your computer to the pool with a large heat exchanger or radiator fully submerged in the pool. That way you will save a crapload of water (and money) and you wont have to worry about the scale deposits in your waterblock (I'm suprised nobody had pointed that out yet ... just look at your showerhead and you'll get an idea of what you are facing).

*GBG*uggbash · 09-26-2002, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by myv65
Another "welcome to the forums". I spent a couple of months in Gävle back in 2000. Glad darn near everyone there speaks English.

Well, the choice is yours. If nothing else, folks here will be curious to know how things turn out for you.

I hope you enjoyed beeing in Sweden as much as i enjoy beeing at your side of the sea! (NC Wilmington rocks!, great fishing, got a huge Barracuda! still proud

That is really cool!

Fixittt · 09-26-2002, 05:54 PM

Ok lets get to the basics here. All he would be wasting is money, if you think about it this way, there is not a drop less of water on the planet then there was 100 years ago. Its just in different forms. Plus water treatment plants would have it back in circulation in no time so all you would waste is money. From the sounds of it, alot as well, and amagine if you will, what would happen if there developed a waterleak in the system somewhere. Ohh man, not only would it ruin the pc, but the floor, maybe a desk, and anything else on the floor. OHH man....

Its not very pratical, but neither was diging a hole 12 feet down and putting a tank in the hole with a pump and feed that to a pc. Natural cooling baybe!

To each his own.

09-25-2002, 07:45 PM	#1
GBGuggbash Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 20	newbie on procooling.com This is a great site from what i can tell, the best so far! I`m fairly new into cooling and i have just recently begun to understand the basics. anyway my first project will be this : House Water Cooling! My house system will give me a 202.8 g/h (768.6 l/h) water flow and a constant water temperature of 62.6 fahrenheit (17 celsius) to play with. Ofcourse the drawback is the water bill, but i think it will be enough with a weak water flow of about 50/gh (189.5 l/h). It will then cost me about 0.15 $ for one hour cooling. I pay one dollar for one m3 of water (0.028 $ for one ft3), what do you guys pay? With my "open system" i will finnish of all watts my water takes for a ride. This will allow me to use a peltier with ease and with superior performance. what do you guys think?

09-25-2002, 07:50 PM	#2
nikhsub1 c00ling p00n Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: L.A. Posts: 758	I think for part time use, this idea would be fun but, a big but, it is not practical and very wasteful. If you will be pelt cooling, a good closed loop system with a good radiator will do you very well. It may be just me ( I am environmentally friendy) but to run "house" water thru the system full time is just a waste of H20. __________________ :-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-: E6700 @ 3.65Ghz / P5W DH Deluxe / 2GB 667 TeamGroup / 1900XTX PC Power & Cooling Turbo 510 Deluxe Mountain Mods U2-UFO Cube Storm G5 --> MP-01 --> PA 120.3 --> 2x DDC Ultras in Series --> Custom Clear Res "Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity." 1,223,460+ Ghz Folding@Home aNonForums :-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:'``':-.,_,.-:

09-25-2002, 09:20 PM	#9
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	I used to pay about 30 cents per meter cube, and I still would not use it to cool a PC. A cubic meter of water is about 264 gallons. If you use 200 gallons per hour, you would be using 1'752'000 gallons per year (assuming always on). That's 6636 cubic meters, and it'll cost you $1'000 per year (15 cents /m^3). Keep in mind that even though you measured 200 gph out of your faucet (I assume), the restrictions within your rig will bring that down quite dramatically, possibly even lower than 50 gph. Also, you would have to add an electric valve, to shut off your water supply, when you turn off your PC. There is an advantage to using 10 to 15 deg C water, but you can do that with a water chiller, or a dehumidifier, with better performance. Welcome to ProCooling __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

09-26-2002, 10:23 AM	#15
airspirit Been /.'d... have you? Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Moscow, ID Posts: 1,986	Dude, if you really want to do that kind of thing, just do a dual loop system. Fill up a swimming pool with water (either the kiddie type or the real thing) and run the cooling loop from your computer to the pool with a large heat exchanger or radiator fully submerged in the pool. That way you will save a crapload of water (and money) and you wont have to worry about the scale deposits in your waterblock (I'm suprised nobody had pointed that out yet ... just look at your showerhead and you'll get an idea of what you are facing). __________________ #!/bin/sh {who;} {last;} {pause;} {grep;} {touch;} {unzip;} mount /dev/girl -t {wet;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} {fsck;} echo yes yes yes {yes;} umount {/dev/girl;zip;} rm -rf {wet.spot;} {sleep;} finger: permission denied

09-26-2002, 05:54 PM	#17
Fixittt CNC Beyatch Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tulsa Spell it backwards Posts: 721	Ok lets get to the basics here. All he would be wasting is money, if you think about it this way, there is not a drop less of water on the planet then there was 100 years ago. Its just in different forms. Plus water treatment plants would have it back in circulation in no time so all you would waste is money. From the sounds of it, alot as well, and amagine if you will, what would happen if there developed a waterleak in the system somewhere. Ohh man, not only would it ruin the pc, but the floor, maybe a desk, and anything else on the floor. OHH man.... Its not very pratical, but neither was diging a hole 12 feet down and putting a tank in the hole with a pump and feed that to a pc. Natural cooling baybe! To each his own. __________________ Creator of the Spir@l Block Longest post ever http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=43808#post43808

09-25-2002, 08:27 PM	#6
mo Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada, Montreal Posts: 136	hehe. thats an interesting statement. Keep in mind I come from a culture where water is so scarce, it isnt supplied by the government except irrregularly 1-2 days a week. People stock on those days in a water tank , and live off that water tank to drink, clean, cook etc.. until the water comes again. In dry summers it gets a worse. Anyways, You might save on money short term, but a year down the line you would have spent the cost of a pump and radiator and more. Thats not to mention that water from the tap is going to messup your water blocks with calcium buildup and many many lovely microscopic organisms. Oh, and did I mention the bubbles? Mucho mucho bubbles

09-26-2002, 06:10 AM	#11
ChrioN Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 318	GBGuggbash I'm from Gothenburg too! Hänger du mycket på sweclockers.com?

09-26-2002, 09:51 AM	#14
myv65 Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: home Posts: 365	Another "welcome to the forums". I spent a couple of months in Gävle back in 2000. Glad darn near everyone there speaks English. From a cost standpoint, you are facing a losing proposition. Even at 50 gph and your quoted cost of $400/year, that's way more than a "conventional" system with pump and radiator. Figuring about 42 watts for a pump and fans equates to 1 kW-hr/day. I pay around 7 cents per kW-hr, so $0.07 * 365 = $25.55 per year. You mentioned peltier. I'm assuming you would have it directly on the chip and use the water to cool it. In this case, the difference in performance using 17°C water vs, say 30°C water is certainly measureable. But how much more do you suppose you would gain using tap water vs radiator-cooled water? I'd wager keeping radiator-cooled water below 30°C would be no challenge for you. You could also consider even lower flow rates. At 25 gph, the water would warm about 1°C for every 75 watts you dump into it. Even a high-end CPU with peltier would load you up with no more than 225 watts, so a 3°C temperature rise. Now your cost is $200/year. Consider a 6°C rise and your cost is $100/year. At these low flows, you would need a block that was efficient, but it's doable. Well, the choice is yours. If nothing else, folks here will be curious to know how things turn out for you.

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