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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 07-28-2005, 05:52 PM   #1
Cathar
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Default LS7Corvette's passive peltier setup

See it here: http://www.overclockers.com/tips1211/

Since I know LS7Corvette posts here, just a few questions.

What's the CPU being used?
Is the CPU overclocked?
What happens when running something like BurnK7 when CPU is overclocked?
Is there a fan actively running on the heater-core? It looked like it but wasn't sure.
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Unread 07-28-2005, 06:24 PM   #2
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that's pretty sweet, but no pump? i still don't understand what creates the flow? natural process or warm water rising and cool water falling?
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Unread 07-28-2005, 06:28 PM   #3
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I think he should use liquid Gallium or Mercury for better temps. I'm interested to see what difference different fluids would make in a pumpless system.

There are no fans on the heatercore. Basically Peltier with no pump or fan! Prime95 should give pretty close temps to BurnK7 right?

Ls7Corvette: "My CPU is a winchester. 280*9 1.56v for the testing of this setup."
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Unread 07-28-2005, 07:35 PM   #4
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Where is the TEC? on the die? cooling the rad?? i am confused
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Unread 07-28-2005, 07:50 PM   #5
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kaotic504 - yes, warm water vs cool water creates natural convective currents.
cotdt - two of the properties of water that make it ideal for us are its specific heat, and the second is its expansion when heated. Mercury thermometers show that mercury certainly has an issue with this!
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Unread 07-28-2005, 08:30 PM   #6
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Long Haired Git, yeah I'm aware of those issues, but wouldn't mercury's far higher thermal conductance be a lot more important than specific heat capacity? I'm not sure, but has anyone tested the importance of specific heat capacity in water coolers? Ammonia has a higher specific heat than water, someone should try that (as long as they can live with the smell).

I should note that specific heat is related to mass, and water only has high specific heat because of its low density. Mercury has comparable heat capacity per volume and much better heat conductance. It's also cheap and easy to obtain. I think it should be tried! Whoever tries it should be careful, though, especially in a passive setup with no pump and a peltier which can get quite hot.
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Last edited by cotdt; 07-28-2005 at 08:57 PM.
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Unread 07-28-2005, 09:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
See it here: http://www.overclockers.com/tips1211/

Since I know LS7Corvette posts here, just a few questions.

What's the CPU being used?
Is the CPU overclocked?
What happens when running something like BurnK7 when CPU is overclocked?
Is there a fan actively running on the heater-core? It looked like it but wasn't sure.
It is a 3000+ winchester running at 280*9 1.56v(DMM tested). I have not tested stock settings with this setup, Idle will get too low and I have to worry about condensation. Those are not my CPUs max, but close enough for testing purposes. I should have put this in the article but I think the comparison to my old setup is more meaningful.

I will try BurnK7 but for now I am happy with a 42c prime temp(overclocked). Yes there is one fan on my HC. I am using a chevette with no shroud, I should be able to put my bonneville(dual 120 ) core in and see an improvement.

LHG, I believe that a fluid with a higher thermal expansion should give better flow rates and possibly better temps than water, water has an unusually low thermal expansion. I am beting over 100$ on this.....

A couple degrees from improved HC and a couple from a better coolant and I can call it a storm killer. heh.

EDIT: Burnk7 shows 48c, makes it look rather shitty like that. Lol.

Last edited by Ls7corvete; 07-28-2005 at 09:34 PM.
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Unread 07-28-2005, 10:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ls7corvete
It is a 3000+ winchester running at 280*9 1.56v(DMM tested). I have not tested stock settings with this setup, Idle will get too low and I have to worry about condensation. Those are not my CPUs max, but close enough for testing purposes. I should have put this in the article but I think the comparison to my old setup is more meaningful.

I will try BurnK7 but for now I am happy with a 42c prime temp(overclocked). Yes there is one fan on my HC. I am using a chevette with no shroud, I should be able to put my bonneville(dual 120 ) core in and see an improvement.

LHG, I believe that a fluid with a higher thermal expansion should give better flow rates and possibly better temps than water, water has an unusually low thermal expansion. I am beting over 100$ on this.....

A couple degrees from improved HC and a couple from a better coolant and I can call it a storm killer. heh.

EDIT: Burnk7 shows 48c, makes it look rather shitty like that. Lol.
Yeah, that's what I was concerned about. The TEC's will do a decent job, undervolted, so long as you don't exceed its ability to move the heat load. This was the whole reasoning behind a TEC water-chiller I've been working on.

TEC's are notorious for providing good cooling up until you get close to their heat-pumping capacity, and as soon as you exceed that, things start going awry, which is why I suggested the BurnK7 deal. The Winchester CPU's run fairly cool (in my experience anyway until you start pushing >1.6v through them), and with your moderate overclock/overvolt, running BurnK7 would be pushing out about an extra 5-10W of CPU heat over something like Prime95, and as you noticed, it results in a rather non-linear increase in CPU temperature.

This is where things would start to change dramatically if you instead stuck a San Diego core onto your setup and started dumping >100W of heat, instead of your current 60-70W. Whereas with straight water you would get a rather linear increase in CPU temperatures with respect to heat load, on a TEC you will exceed its heat-pumping capacity and CPU temperatures will sky-rocket in a non-linear fashion.

What I would suggest to you is that you have constructed a very finely balanced passive TEC heat-pipe, where so long as the CPU heat load remains within an effective operational range and the TEC's COP remains high enough (undervolted), the passive cooling nature of your loop is not being overwhelmed, and so long as the CPU heat load is high enough, you will remain above the dew-point where condensation occurs. If the CPU heat load gets too high, thermal runaway will occur and the CPU will toast.

It is a very effective, as as you demonstrated cheap, way to keep a CPU that is operating within a rather narrow heat-load range about as cool as water-cooling could maintain, but it has it limitations in that it's not going to satisfy a broad range of heat loads. It is a very delicate balancing act you've managed to achieve with your setup and I'm glad you're happy with it, but it will not provide the same broad heat-load application range that a basic water-cooling setup, or even a decent HSF, can provide.

I'd be curious to see what your results were in comparison to a decent HSF with a quiet fan as well, especially in terms of peak achievable sustained BurnK7 overclock. I would suspect you will find that there will not be too great of a difference.
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Unread 07-28-2005, 10:46 PM   #9
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I would agree with Ls7 on the fact that a liquid with a greater thermal expansion would result in improved flow and thus better temps. I've thought such a setup over before, and have a few things to add to the conversation.

First is that the tubing from the CPU block to the Radiator should be as short as possible. In my mind, this will facilitate more "pressure" between the different thermals in the waterblock and radiator.

Second the radiator should be single pass. In my mind this creates more pressure between the thermals of the waterblock and the rad. I'm sorry I can't explain this right now..... I'm distracted.

Third, the block should obviously be one with high surface area, such as the "lumpy channel" block. I'm also fond of the inlet/outlet orientation of such a block. It should be mounted so that the inlet is on the top and the outlet is on the bottom (Cold sinks, heat rises). One would have to tinker with inlet outlet to get the best results.

One of the thing to seriously think on is tubing size. Too small inhibits flow, too large leads to a decrease in pressure and allows for thermal backflow.

I never have been a fan of pelts...... they just suck too much energy for me. In this case they are probably necessary. It might not be a bad idea to have this be a chilled liquid setup. Meaning that at some point in the loop, the pelt is sandwiched between two blocks. This would allow you to have some liquid be VERY hot and some to be VERY cold. It would also allow you to control the direction of flow, and it would probably result in better flow rates.

The key to making this setup work is to generate the largest possible thermal differentials in the fluid to generate as much flow as possible through the CPU block.
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Unread 07-28-2005, 11:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Yeah, that's what I was concerned about. The TEC's will do a decent job, undervolted, so long as you don't exceed its ability to move the heat load. This was the whole reasoning behind a TEC water-chiller I've been working on.

TEC's are notorious for providing good cooling up until you get close to their heat-pumping capacity, and as soon as you exceed that, things start going awry, which is why I suggested the BurnK7 deal. The Winchester CPU's run fairly cool (in my experience anyway until you start pushing >1.6v through them), and with your moderate overclock/overvolt, running BurnK7 would be pushing out about an extra 5-10W of CPU heat over something like Prime95, and as you noticed, it results in a rather non-linear increase in CPU temperature.

This is where things would start to change dramatically if you instead stuck a San Diego core onto your setup and started dumping >100W of heat, instead of your current 60-70W. Whereas with straight water you would get a rather linear increase in CPU temperatures with respect to heat load, on a TEC you will exceed its heat-pumping capacity and CPU temperatures will sky-rocket in a non-linear fashion.

What I would suggest to you is that you have constructed a very finely balanced passive TEC heat-pipe, where so long as the CPU heat load remains within an effective operational range and the TEC's COP remains high enough (undervolted), the passive cooling nature of your loop is not being overwhelmed, and so long as the CPU heat load is high enough, you will remain above the dew-point where condensation occurs. If the CPU heat load gets too high, thermal runaway will occur and the CPU will toast.

It is a very effective, as as you demonstrated cheap, way to keep a CPU that is operating within a rather narrow heat-load range about as cool as water-cooling could maintain, but it has it limitations in that it's not going to satisfy a broad range of heat loads. It is a very delicate balancing act you've managed to achieve with your setup and I'm glad you're happy with it, but it will not provide the same broad heat-load application range that a basic water-cooling setup, or even a decent HSF, can provide.

I'd be curious to see what your results were in comparison to a decent HSF with a quiet fan as well, especially in terms of peak achievable sustained BurnK7 overclock. I would suspect you will find that there will not be too great of a difference.

Well that pretty much sums up the calculations I did with kryotherm and the like. There is a balance here that needs to be obtained which can be diffictult. There is a limited number of TECs and a limited number of voltages(mainly 5v and 12v) available to this. No one size fits all TEC is going to work.

I would like to see a HSF as well. If anyone has a swiftech I would love to try it out. I based all my calculations on the efficiency of a HSF when I was messing with kryotherm. The MSRP of that HSF was something like 90$ with pelt correct? I still have that price beat and I use a much quieter fan.

This "thermal runnaway" or "meltdown" that people think is going to happen with a TEC seems very unlikley. Obviously the results are not linear like a passive setup but at the current voltage I can put 180w through this element. Choose your TEC wisely but there is far too much fear about pushing them hard. Just remember you can move alot of heat at 0dT, which gives you a nice overhead incase your calculations are incorrect.

For san diego, a 370 or 437w pelt at 12v maybe? There are options. 62mm blocks will be needed. I agree a high surface area. Anyone who wants to attempt this will need to run the calculations first.
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=11318 something like this maybe.

No one said you cannot add a pump to this system, read the bottom of my article to see my thoughts on this, you guys may not have gotten that far I know I have inspired at least one lurker to try TECs because of this and that will be with a small pump.
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Unread 07-28-2005, 11:39 PM   #11
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The way I'm visualizing the flow through the system as it is now doesn't seem to be the best it could be design wise. It looks like the hot water is rising off the waterblock, going up the tube to the rad to cool off, and falling back down the same tube like a heatpipe. There doesn't seem to be much incentive for the water to pass through the rad and back down the other tube creating the desired flow through the waterblock.

If a single pass rad was used that was tilted very slighly up at the hot side and the waterblock was put at a point not at the bottom of the loop but somewhere just above the bottom on the hot side of the loop I see a lot more of the desired flow going on.

Of course, your reality may vary.
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Unread 07-28-2005, 11:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zackbass
The way I'm visualizing the flow through the system as it is now doesn't seem to be the best it could be design wise. It looks like the hot water is rising off the waterblock, going up the tube to the rad to cool off, and falling back down the same tube like a heatpipe. There doesn't seem to be much incentive for the water to pass through the rad and back down the other tube creating the desired flow through the waterblock.

If a single pass rad was used that was tilted very slighly up at the hot side and the waterblock was put at a point not at the bottom of the loop but somewhere just above the bottom on the hot side of the loop I see a lot more of the desired flow going on.

Of course, your reality may vary.
Yea it does. Dont worry guys flow establishes itself very well. Up one side down the other. Very little flow but it is there. I dont see as much dependance on orientation as I thought. I will test this and get back to you guys.
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Unread 07-29-2005, 01:53 AM   #13
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By "thermal runaway", meaning non-linear temperature progression with increased heat-load. Rather annoying to have a system that is apparantly stable for most thing, then you go and run some program that loads up the CPU and causes it to generate 10W more heat than it generally does, and then the CPU ramps in temperature by 10C, and suddenly the CPU becomes unstable whereas on normal air-cooling or water the CPU would only heat up by an extra 2-3C or so and potentially remain stable.

Ls7corvete, TEC's have been in use by people for a long time. They are effective, but they do have their limitations. Yes, the newer lot of >250W rated TEC's makes cooling modern CPU's possible, but the caveats are still the same. Either you balance it correctly like you've done and remain within the narrow operational range, or you go all out and do the whole condensation protection thing, add a pump, feed the TEC more voltage causing it to suck down more power, boost the PSU providing that power, and so on.

Of course we read as far as the pump comment. What, you think that people who have been using TEC's for the last 6 years suddenly developed amnesia and forgot all the lessons they had learned until you came along?

TEC's can be effective, but they need to be properly controlled. Some kind of active temperature monitoring and power regulation feedback controller would go a long way towards making them more attractive. As you stated though, that now involves adding a pump, the power controller, and the extra power usage (which has to be paid for in the long term rather than up-front once). Could all of that be purchased for less than a high-end water setup, maybe, but there's nothing stopping someone from assembling a budget water-cooling setup with the same parts used in the TEC setup, and they didn't have to pay for the TEC and the ongoing extra power costs, and they don't have to remain within the TEC's effective power range.

So really it's a case of carefully balancing a setup, like you have done, and so long as you stay within it's limitations it's all good, or alternately going for the whole-hog TEC deal (pump, radiator, PSU, waterblock) just like has been done for at least 6-7 years now.

What I don't understand though is the quite blatant hostility you're showing towards other solutions, including those manufacturers who have been offering TEC-based water-cooling solutions for the last 5 years (i.e. Swiftech).

Your overclock (280x9) is rather middling. There are people with 3000+ Winnie's at 2600MHz on air-cooling, and 2800MHz on straight water-cooling, so a 2520MHz CPU clock isn't really demonstrating anything superior at this time, and is something which can be achieved by a near-silent heat-pipe based HSF. Winnie's are quite peculiar CPU's in that they don't overclock much better between water and air. A better indication would perhaps be a San Diego based core which does benefit from extra cooling. I would love to see some results from that, and more especially, a 3GHz CPU clock with the TEC being used, and what the power draw and total equipment was that was required to achieve that.
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Unread 07-29-2005, 09:15 AM   #14
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Zackbass:

I was thinking the same thing. The idea of tilting the radiator eluded me, and I think it would be an excellent idea to improve flow rates.
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Unread 07-29-2005, 10:11 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
By "thermal runaway", meaning non-linear temperature progression with increased heat-load. Rather annoying to have a system that is apparantly stable for most thing, then you go and run some program that loads up the CPU and causes it to generate 10W more heat than it generally does, and then the CPU ramps in temperature by 10C, and suddenly the CPU becomes unstable whereas on normal air-cooling or water the CPU would only heat up by an extra 2-3C or so and potentially remain stable.

Ls7corvete, TEC's have been in use by people for a long time. They are effective, but they do have their limitations. Yes, the newer lot of >250W rated TEC's makes cooling modern CPU's possible, but the caveats are still the same. Either you balance it correctly like you've done and remain within the narrow operational range, or you go all out and do the whole condensation protection thing, add a pump, feed the TEC more voltage causing it to suck down more power, boost the PSU providing that power, and so on.

Of course we read as far as the pump comment. What, you think that people who have been using TEC's for the last 6 years suddenly developed amnesia and forgot all the lessons they had learned until you came along?

TEC's can be effective, but they need to be properly controlled. Some kind of active temperature monitoring and power regulation feedback controller would go a long way towards making them more attractive. As you stated though, that now involves adding a pump, the power controller, and the extra power usage (which has to be paid for in the long term rather than up-front once). Could all of that be purchased for less than a high-end water setup, maybe, but there's nothing stopping someone from assembling a budget water-cooling setup with the same parts used in the TEC setup, and they didn't have to pay for the TEC and the ongoing extra power costs, and they don't have to remain within the TEC's effective power range.

So really it's a case of carefully balancing a setup, like you have done, and so long as you stay within it's limitations it's all good, or alternately going for the whole-hog TEC deal (pump, radiator, PSU, waterblock) just like has been done for at least 6-7 years now.

What I don't understand though is the quite blatant hostility you're showing towards other solutions, including those manufacturers who have been offering TEC-based water-cooling solutions for the last 5 years (i.e. Swiftech).

Your overclock (280x9) is rather middling. There are people with 3000+ Winnie's at 2600MHz on air-cooling, and 2800MHz on straight water-cooling, so a 2520MHz CPU clock isn't really demonstrating anything superior at this time, and is something which can be achieved by a near-silent heat-pipe based HSF. Winnie's are quite peculiar CPU's in that they don't overclock much better between water and air. A better indication would perhaps be a San Diego based core which does benefit from extra cooling. I would love to see some results from that, and more especially, a 3GHz CPU clock with the TEC being used, and what the power draw and total equipment was that was required to achieve that.

No hostility, I love swiftech products. I am just trying to show the benefits of my cooling. I have not seen this type of setup before and I think that there does need to be improvements before it really starts to show advantages. I like to see how my system measures up to others like the storm, no need to take that as hostility

No need to take my winchesters ability with the ability of the cooling. It can do more than that but I use that setting as it is stable up to near 60c there.
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Unread 07-29-2005, 02:50 PM   #16
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Hi can you try the same setup with a Prescott CPU? I would like to see the temps for that.
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Unread 07-29-2005, 07:25 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotdt
Hi can you try the same setup with a Prescott CPU? I would like to see the temps for that.
No I do not have that equipment. If you attempt this make sure the TEC is matched to the heat output.
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Unread 08-01-2005, 10:41 PM   #18
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I like the concept of it, and in this particular scenario, it works. But it's a precarious thing. If I fully comprehend Cathar's criticisms (please forgive my caffeine deprived thought process), I think the point is, why bother when plain old watercooling is less dangerous and nearly as effective and at the other end of the spectrum, you have full power peltier cooling, which is much more effective. This has a couple things going for it though. It's cheap, simple and silent. But it's got a very small range of applications. Too much heat and it cooks itself. Too little and you get condensation. So you'd need a temperature controller on the peltier. Not a huge deal. Looks good considering it's still cheap and silent.

I think much of the criticism comes from the mention of the pump and whatnot, because then you're back to square one with peltier cooling. You'll need your foam, conformal coating, dielectric grease, etc. And once you have that, why not take advantage of it and buy another power supply and run it at full voltage? Take advantage of it all. Or just ditch the peltier and go with a near silent heatpipe cooler like a recent Thermalright design and keep things really cheap and simple (and safe).

This seems to be in a grey area. A no mans land if you will, of cooling power. Power enough to be dangerous, but not enough to be worth it.

Or maybe I'm way out in left field and missed the point entirely.

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Unread 08-01-2005, 11:09 PM   #19
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No, you pretty much hit the nail on the head JWFokker.
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Unread 08-02-2005, 01:01 AM   #20
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Although Cathar and JWFokker mentioned important points, this should work pretty well if you have a peltier controller, either software-based or hardware-based. The main point of this is cost and silence as Ls7Corvette has mentioned. I really like this idea, and I think it just needs to be refined. I also think, as does Ls7Corvette, that heatpipes would work better in this setup.
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Unread 08-02-2005, 09:06 AM   #21
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You are all right.

My only thing to add to that is that this is the first I have seen this done and I feel that refinements can improve upon this greatly. I havent seen this done with a HSF even.

Maybe refinements are futile. I feel I can get this system to beat any water cooling system with some refinements, would it be worth it then? What if I could control temps? If you say no then go ahead look elsewhere.

Both seem within reach.

Anyways, a new point, What HSFs are available to test with? The only one that I know of is the swiftech and I cannot seem to find any of these. I know there are manufacturers making these.

Anyone out there putting ~150w into a heatpipe HSF? I wounder what kind of results they get with such high heat loads.

EDIT: Frankly I find it strange that my 56$ dollar system is being compared to full TEC systems when the average WCing system is running >300$. 300 is well into full TEC range and even into cheap phase range.

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Unread 08-02-2005, 10:53 AM   #22
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Ls7corvett: it really depends on which heatpipe based HSF. Heatpipes have to be carefully caliberated to a specific thermal load in order to work properly. Some heatsinks are meant for only one thermal load; these are usually the ones with one big pipe (heatlane, or "superconducter" tube). Than there are "self caliberating" heatpipes. From what I've been told over on VR, these make up the majority of newer heatpipe HSFs that have multiple heatpipes. Each pipe is caliberated to take a certain load in a graduated fashion. e.g. the first pipe will be optimized for a 30w load, the second for a 60w load, and the final for a 100w load. That way the heatsink can handle a range from 30w to 190w, with each pipe essentially "kicking in" when a certain threshold is crossed. This is due to the fact that if there ins't enough thermal energy present, a heatpipe just won't work.

Try the skythe NCU 2000. It appears to be adaptable to a TEC.

What you are building is essentially a scaleable heatpipe system that can basically be assemled by anyone with a brain for very little $$$. I think it is a good idea worth pursuing. Just as a thought, try using alchol as the coolant. Shouldn't it expand more than water at the same temperature since it has a lower heat capacity?
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Unread 08-02-2005, 11:24 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxSaleen
Ls7corvett: it really depends on which heatpipe based HSF. Heatpipes have to be carefully caliberated to a specific thermal load in order to work properly. Some heatsinks are meant for only one thermal load; these are usually the ones with one big pipe (heatlane, or "superconducter" tube). Than there are "self caliberating" heatpipes. From what I've been told over on VR, these make up the majority of newer heatpipe HSFs that have multiple heatpipes. Each pipe is caliberated to take a certain load in a graduated fashion. e.g. the first pipe will be optimized for a 30w load, the second for a 60w load, and the final for a 100w load. That way the heatsink can handle a range from 30w to 190w, with each pipe essentially "kicking in" when a certain threshold is crossed. This is due to the fact that if there ins't enough thermal energy present, a heatpipe just won't work.

Try the skythe NCU 2000. It appears to be adaptable to a TEC.

What you are building is essentially a scaleable heatpipe system that can basically be assemled by anyone with a brain for very little $$$. I think it is a good idea worth pursuing. Just as a thought, try using alchol as the coolant. Shouldn't it expand more than water at the same temperature since it has a lower heat capacity?

Thanks for the input. Do you think that a TEC can be placed between the copper plate of the scythe and the heatpipe portion? Or will the TEC clamping pressure crush the tubbing of the scythe?

I will be using fluorinert soon, it has similar expansion to alcohol and also will carry more heat than alcohol.
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Unread 08-02-2005, 11:48 AM   #24
cotdt
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maxSaleen: where can one order such heatpipes? do you know? Also, how many heatpipes do you think is needed? Also, how long can heatpipes get?

My idea was originally to have 3 heatpipes attach to a copper block which attaches to the large heatsink, and then that copper block was two or three more heatpipes coming out of it to attach to the other end of the large heatsink.

I think the heatsink you mentioned is too small. Even a Coolermaster Hyper6 is too small, since I've tried to use it to cool a Venice passive(but no peltier), and temps shot way up and crashed. Also, they are expensive. Better would be a 12" x 16" inch aluminum heatsink on ebay for $5-$30. You can attach the large heatsink plate onto the side of your computer, and I'm sure it can be designed for easy maintenence.
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Unread 08-02-2005, 07:25 PM   #25
maxSaleen
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The heatpipes that I mentioned, the "self caliberating" ones, are currently used in production HSFs such as the thermalright xp120. One can build his/her own heatpipe. A guide is here: err... can't find it. Give me some time.....

cotdt: your idea is realized in Zalman's passively cooled cases (TNN-500). I've always wanted to try to build such a system, but simply haven't had the time. I thought that I'd mention that one heatpipe branching into many smaller heatpipes is not efficient as it would add thermal barriers and thus hurt performance.

About the skythe: I'd have the pelt sandwhiched between two Cu plates. One can obtain an NCU 200 here: http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=2049

I believe that such a HSF could passively cool a CPU (venice core at low clock speed) if it is properly positioned in a case with two 12cm fans.

Ls7: flourient is an excellent choice with one cavet: the price is insane. I thought the goal of this was to keep everything inexpensive.

Sorry for the incoherent ranting. I drove home from Chicago yesterday. One man, ~1200 miles, and one day.....
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