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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 07-18-2004, 05:36 PM   #101
AngryAlpaca
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Googling should be taught in schools; would solve a lot of this.
Actually, my social teacher has used the phrase and encourages it a lot. Unfortunately, most teachers are still in the mind set that the Internet is bad and counter-educational. Oh well.

Everyone who is saying that a forum can not be changed is wrong. It's quite easy to change a forum, but if you're watching out for people's feelings, technical information gets lost in a jumble of "don't be so mean to the noobs." That's one of the reasons that I like procooling; we can be as mean as we want, and they learn quickly as a result. I used to have people mad at me all the time at EOCF when I told them, "read my sticky" but now they've gotten over it and if someone asks a basic question that is covered, they will be linked to it by several people. All it took was a lot of time and an unmoderated section where we could chastise laziness as we pleased.

One major problem with the "post a response, not a link" method is that no one will explain something as much in a post as in a guide that they wrote. If a person already posted three paragraphs on the thing in a sticky, will he post 3 paragraphs in a thread? Hell no. He'll give a brief, easily misinterpretted, generalized statement that's good enough for most responces. If instead of giving the short response he sent the link, he'd save himself time (explaining, typing etc.) and probably the noob time (reading, questioning as he doesn't understand the short statement, etc.) as well. But, since that doesn't happen, you get noobs thinking they understand the subject (from the short statement) and spreading it, probably shortening it as well, and the overall level of "net clue" goes down. If the noob had read the sticky, he'd have a basic understanding of the subject and may want to learn more than "well, the Maze 4 and MCW5000 are both popular options" (near quote from the site that banned Cathar, I think) and so might spread something with some semblance of knowledge.

This thread, with the references to stubborn noobs who don't want to learn and people not being supposed to flame noobs, reminds me of a thread where a person wanted to use 1/16" tubing and insisted that, using a radiator, he'd get condensation (he talked to a plumber.) He also thought that the purpose of a radiator was to cool down the tubing that cooled down the water, but that's irrelevant. Anyway, someone I know (record ban count on EOCF) came in there, 12 pages later (no progress) and finally yelled at the guy calling him a damned idiot (getting himself banned, again.) That's the stuff that doesn't need banning. If you're going to argue against something that everyone has agreed is correct and could provide proof, and insult members who have some clue about what they are talking about, you deserve to be yelled at and called stupid, and the person who does it shouldn't be banned. OCF, EOCF, XS, pretty much all the major sites are ban happy for stuff like that, working against accuracy if they know it (that they are working against accuracy) or not. Procooling isn't and they don't have near the amount of stupidity even with the few noobs that wander in.



I realize that if OCF wants a fix at all, they'd want a quick fix, so they should just put the basic watercooling sticky on the main WC page and that will probably halve the number of stupid threads.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 05:45 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca
. I used to have people mad at me all the time at EOCF when I told them, "read my sticky" but now they've gotten over it and if someone asks a basic question that is covered, they will be linked to it by several people. All it took was a lot of time and an unmoderated section where we could chastise laziness as we pleased.

.
Link to "read my sticky", please
Dunno whether you,yourself, are guilty of spreading dis-information
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Unread 07-18-2004, 05:50 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca
One major problem with the "post a response, not a link" method is that no one will explain something as much in a post as in a guide that they wrote.
Strawman - Thats a perspective no one supported.

Those of us who think newbs should be helped and not just told to search, think that a quote/link should be presented in combination with telling them something along the lines of - "they don't have to wait for answers when they search for it themselves".

Atleast I didn't see anywhere that someone posted saying that people should fully respond to repetitive/n00b posts, and I wanted to make it clear that what you stated appears as though it is a misrepresentation of points being discussed. No one said the wheel should be reinvented - what it boiled down to was positively reinforcing members to do the work themselves, or negatively reinforcing members to do the work themselves.

OCF prefers the positive reinforcement route. ProC prefers the negative reinforcement route.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 05:57 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG

OCF prefers the positive reinforcement route. ProC prefers the negative reinforcement route.
Would love to hear a more detailed definition for both positive and negative reinforcement.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 06:06 PM   #105
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positive reinforcement would be giving people extra stars for making enough posts with incorrect information.

Negative reinforcement would be having Jaydee tell you what he thinks about your family's lineage in every one of your posts until you leave

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Unread 07-18-2004, 06:13 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
positive reinforcement would be giving people extra stars for making enough posts with incorrect information.

Negative reinforcement would be having Jaydee tell you what he thinks about your family's lineage in every one of your posts until you leave

Ok, I am good with his statment then.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 07:11 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pHaestus
positive reinforcement would be giving people extra stars for making enough posts with incorrect information.

Negative reinforcement would be having Jaydee tell you what he thinks about your family's lineage in every one of your posts until you leave

Roughly yeah, except without the connotation that we spew misinformation. Let's face it, with the rate of posting activity here it isn't hard to assimilate all the n00bs right off the bat - thats the way you want it. When you get 50 n00bs a day, its a process, not an instantenous aquisition of wisdom. In either situation, it is up to the individual to determine the worth of the information they come across (And trust me, that question of worth can be posed at either forum). Anyways... On to the clarification of what I meant:

Positive reinforcement is linking people to sticky information and quoting useful information, while suggesting they search and read stickies.

Negative reinforcement is tough love - telling them "google it" or "Read before posting".
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Unread 07-18-2004, 07:45 PM   #108
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3rd Party Perspective: Not an OC Forum member, so no personal experience, but if what you (you being the people from OC Forum) are saying is in fact the case, is there any reason to remain there other than 1) devotion/habit or 2) masochism? You're basically stating that the size and expansion of the community have made it impossible to keep the "net clue" from plummeting. Perhaps the "positive reinforcement" strategy is actually the cause of the problem - encouraging quantity over quality is fine, but there is a price to be paid.

I hope that Procooling remains relatively "exclusive" in that it retains its low BS tolerance combined with its mature moderation - from what I have seen, the moderators here assume that everyone is an adult and can conduct themselves as such, and don't go around being nannies. If the blunt approach of some members mean that Procooling will never have 50,000 members, so be it - I'll take 10 knowledgeable people over 50 ignorant ones any day.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 08:00 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
Strawman - Thats a perspective no one supported.

Those of us who think newbs should be helped and not just told to search, think that a quote/link should be presented in combination with telling them something along the lines of - "they don't have to wait for answers when they search for it themselves".

Atleast I didn't see anywhere that someone posted saying that people should fully respond to repetitive/n00b posts, and I wanted to make it clear that what you stated appears as though it is a misrepresentation of points being discussed. No one said the wheel should be reinvented - what it boiled down to was positively reinforcing members to do the work themselves, or negatively reinforcing members to do the work themselves.

OCF prefers the positive reinforcement route. ProC prefers the negative reinforcement route.
Positive reinforcement?
The only thing you are reinforcing is the idea that the noobs dont NEED to look, dont NEED to search, dont NEED to learn.
You are building a population of fools who cannot figure anything out for themselves!
You are positively reinforcing ignorance, poor habits, and you having to repost old information!
Those noobs that you "help" are worse off after your help than if you'd have given them tough love.
You don't train a puppy to not piss on the rug by putting a bowl under him every time he takes a leak. You puinish him and teach him what he needs to do.

your methods create an unending supply of questions, and an unending supply of people who need them answered because they've been TRAINED to NOT look it up for themselves!
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Unread 07-18-2004, 08:09 PM   #110
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@Balefire: That wasn't what I was saying about OC. There is plenty of people at OC who are very knowledgeable and are happy to give great advice, many more people than there are here surely.

My point was that with so many new members there are going to be posts around that are of lesser quality. In the same effect, we have more knowledgeable members who make posts of better quality. We are bigger so there is more representation on both ends of the spectrum.

There is a lot larger general pool of experience to draw from at OCF, while here there is a very focused pool of experience to draw from. The utility of what both divulge can be debated any way you look at it.

@Althorin: If they don't follow my lead when I give them a start on the research, then they aren't going to do work on their own when you tell them to search. Both doesn't get us any further with that individual, but chances are that someone will see the information I posted and find it useful and they will pursue it for their own reasons. When you bonk them on the head, nothing good can possibly come from that post. Regardless of our actions, in most cases that person is going to do what he feels like... I don't feel it is my duty to bonk them to make them do what they "should".

Remember that this is a hobby, some of us help people for fun, some of us pursue research for fun. I have been trying not to make any judgements about which is more useful in the large scheme of things.

Criticize our approach if you like, that is your right. What does the ProC approach offer? And what does it accomplish. I'd like to hear what you have to say about it, and how what is done here has a larger positive benefit?

Last edited by IMOG; 07-18-2004 at 08:29 PM. Reason: Editted for clarification.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 08:28 PM   #111
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Are you asking for an official mission statement for Procooling? Only I can give such. My approach to the forums is to pretty much let them regulate themselves except for spam and blindlinks to stupid games like ******s. I sometimes lock threads that don't seem to be doing anything other than cause bullshit internet drama between these forums and other places (this one is right on the edge but no one's really getting too upset yet so I leave it be).

As far as a larger positive benefit goes, you can't have it both ways. Either it's just a hobby and everyone needs to relax, or it's an endeavor towards some larger purpose. The approach I mentioned above is more to make sure I don't have to micromanage the forums (hell EVERYONE should have better things to do).

I can't recall getting a single e-mail from a newcomer that complained about the tone or the attitude here. Maybe Joe gets those I dunno.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 08:31 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
Criticize our approach if you like, that is your right. What does the ProC approach offer? And what does it accomplish. I'd like to hear what you have to say about it, and how what is done here has a larger positive benefit?

In college, there are classrooms and laboratories.

OCF is a classroom (though the teachers are dying)
ProC is a laboratory, pushing the envelope of R&D

I personally am leaving the classroom and working on getting my apron on, if I can take the heat of the lab.

To each his own, I am about done trying to help OCF, my heart is in R&D, working on getting my mind there

Quote:
Originally Posted by balefirex
3rd Party Perspective: Not an OC Forum member, so no personal experience, but if what you (you being the people from OC Forum) are saying is in fact the case, is there any reason to remain there other than 1) devotion/habit or 2) masochism?
devotion for me, but patience is running thin
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Unread 07-18-2004, 08:39 PM   #113
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I can't recall getting a single e-mail from a newcomer that complained about the tone or the attitude here. Maybe Joe gets those I dunno.
I know that it drove off at least one person, but we're better off without him (don't remember name...)
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Unread 07-18-2004, 08:40 PM   #114
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An official mission statement wasn't exactly what I was looking for, but I suppose I must not have been clear enough. I think that sounds like a very reasonable approach anyways and it gives me a bit of perspective on your site.

I find your statement about an "endeavor towards some larger purpose" interesting though. Does ProC have plans in the works for landing a watercooling setup on the moon? J/K of course, but I have a hard time seeing how you can think what we do (overclock and tweak components and develop components) is not a hobby. People can take hobbies fairfly seriously, but I don't see what you would define this as, if it is not still a hobby.

Regardless, I will leave the question as posed and see which direction Althornin takes with it.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 08:46 PM   #115
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many thanks to pHaestus for hosting this discussion, I bet it wouldn't have lasted long at OCers

will be interesting to see how it plays out.

nikhsub1....what's the deal with the idiot forums? PM if you'd like?
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Unread 07-18-2004, 08:58 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
An official mission statement wasn't exactly what I was looking for, but I suppose I must not have been clear enough. I think that sounds like a very reasonable approach anyways and it gives me a bit of perspective on your site.

I find your statement about an "endeavor towards some larger purpose" interesting though. Does ProC have plans in the works for landing a watercooling setup on the moon? J/K of course, but I have a hard time seeing how you can think what we do (overclock and tweak components and develop components) is not a hobby. People can take hobbies fairfly seriously, but I don't see what you would define this as, if it is not still a hobby.

Regardless, I will leave the question as posed and see which direction Althornin takes with it.
Must have missed it but I never saw anything to suggest overclocking and tweaking wasn't a hobby. It most certainly is.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:03 PM   #117
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IMOG:
Was replying to:
Quote:
What does the ProC approach offer? And what does it accomplish. I'd like to hear what you have to say about it, and how what is done here has a larger positive benefit?
When I read it I got the whole "but how does this better mankind?" vibe I deal with in research grants all the time. Since I can get away with "because I feel like it" in my hobbies I do so.

If you want to know what my ultimate goals are, then I would like to generate C/W vs flow and vs. head loss curves for wbs and radiators and flow vs. head loss curves for pumps, tubing, and reservoirs. To this I would like to add static pressure vs. C/W profiles for the radiator fans as well (this is the part I am dreading). Then I'd like to build an interactive web-based program where users could mix and match components and get an estimate of final flow rate and total system C/W.

Will I accomplish this ever? Dunno. It would presumably be of use to everyone new and old who water cools.

I find the comments about Procooling not being friendly to newcomers pretty ironic though considering that I have written several articles:

Useful Tips and tricks for water coolers
Maximizing flow rates

SPECIFICALLY for those without a background in the topic who want to learn. I guess that's not good enough; I should frequent many forums and copy/paste the information whenever someone needs it?
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:05 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenman100
OCF is a classroom (though the teachers are dying)
ProC is a laboratory, pushing the envelope of R&D
I'd possibly liken ProC to a university, research and high level learn happens here, and the odd n00b comes and learns.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:08 PM   #119
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Again pure conjecture:
At most forums I am a member of, Watercooling is a means to an end - the "how" and "why" are not as important as the "what" (the results). Procooling is much more about the "how" and "why" from what I've seen; it attracts those with industry pedigree, scientific/engineering backgrounds, and serious DIY enthusiasts. I suppose the larger purpose is taking water cooling forward, to the next level. Whether the end user appreciates it or not, blocks don't improve their performance themselves. The people here that are contributing to that aren't going out and buying premade blocks, in fact, some of them are designing the blocks that other people are buying. They're throwing around ideas, sharing information, and providing criticism - something that is invaluable when brainstorming, but frowned upon in so many other communities.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:09 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee116
Must have missed it but I never saw anything to suggest overclocking and tweaking wasn't a hobby. It most certainly is.
I dunno if you "missed it", but what I was saying is in reference to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pH
As far as a larger positive benefit goes, you can't have it both ways. Either it's just a hobby and everyone needs to relax, or it's an endeavor towards some larger purpose. The approach I mentioned above is more to make sure I don't have to micromanage the forums (hell EVERYONE should have better things to do).
I don't see anything at ProC that legitimates this as something more than a hobby - I mean for instance, the too-big-for-the-britches personalities and rough demeanor wouldn't fly too many places in the professional world, not to mention the tangibility (or utility) of the improvements or "discoveries" are either low or nil. That's just a couple poor examples, but how is what this site does an "endeavor towards some larger purpose"?
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:14 PM   #121
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Oh don't get so full of yourselves. Procooling isn't the end all be all; there are sites where REAL Professionals hang out that aren't even accessible to our ilk. Almost every question I have been struggling with concerning CPU power output and fluctuations (out of personal interest) was known to AMD (and probably Intel) engineers before I ever even owned a SocketA CPU. Presumably all the BIG mfgrs know how their cooling systems perform before they send them out for review as well.

The assets that have kept Procooling running the last couple of years are (1) the quality of the DIYers in the WB design forum and (b) the fact that so many of our forum regulars either are banned or have tired of most other forums.

At least I don't feel elite or better than others. I feel like I'm actually getting stupider as I stare at the collection of mismatched testing equipment actually
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:15 PM   #122
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And what would be the higher purpose of the OCforums? Not sure I ever said that I was going to benefit all mankind; that's what Sally Strothers is for (and I field enough bs questions about that in my day job).
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:16 PM   #123
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do clouds block the view ?

EDIT: to Glitch
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:23 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMOG
I dunno if you "missed it", but what I was saying is in reference to this:



I don't see anything at ProC that legitimates this as something more than a hobby - I mean for instance, the too-big-for-the-britches personalities and rough demeanor wouldn't fly too many places in the professional world, not to mention the tangibility (or utility) of the improvements or "discoveries" are either low or nil. That's just a couple poor examples, but how is what this site does an "endeavor towards some larger purpose"?
Not sure I agree with how pH said it but IMO a hobby IS an endeavor into something larger. First step is the hobby level. From there it may or may not move forward. If the hobby is enjoyable one will usually carry on even if no larger purpose is likely. Most of the greatest inventions of all time were hobbies at one point. WC systems included.
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Unread 07-18-2004, 09:23 PM   #125
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You're implying that this isn't the professional world... It seems to me that we've got a collection of MFG's that come here from time to time. Ultimately, it seems to me that their comments here are of great effect to the WC world. Some places are good about it, and get some positive PR out of pro/forums, and some places make little disasters in which they prove themselves inferior. Procooling seems to generally be a more confrontational place which is how stuff happens everywhere. Would anything happen if everyone just sat around, "You're entitled to your opinion that silver can go below ambient under normal environmental conditions"? No. We'd all just sit around buying overprice, underperforming products in order to avoid offending some individual who knows nothing about that which they speak of. Criticism is the most useful thing ever (well, disatisfaction is pretty high up there) for the improving of products and quality of life and all, which doesn't seem to happen at a lot of forums.
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