US vs German systems - advantages/disadvantages?

[Pug]

Originally Posted by unregistered

ditto
I'm awfully close to calling Pug a liar

Pug
EVERY time you have used my name, you better have the actual quote handy
you are attributing statements to me that I have not said
- but I expect such from one fighting for every sale (else you would not do so, eh ?)

Originally Posted by unregistered

Swiftech will have to hold for a couple of weeks, new kit options coming - but even so a shoot out win is unlikely as we do not offer so large a rad in a kit
(and I must admit that the Swiftech kits are NOT oriented to maximum performance, maximum installation convenience is the clear goal)

Emphasis and interpretation mine.

[pHaestus]

Looks like a complete mfgr-supplied kit to me; no problems on this end testing that out. Rather than a testament to the superiority of the German way of doing things though it seems more like a tacit admission that the US DIYers were (mostly) right with 2x120mm heatercores and larger pumps eh?

[BillA]

please use the quote in its entirety, such is fine
you are free to draw the conclusions you wish, just put my words in quotation marks (the usual convention)

you said: "My quote that admission of defeat had already been forthcoming was based on BillA's admission that on performance, we had already surpassed Swiftech's offering."

Pug
take YOUR choice: a manipulator of words, OR technically illiterate

a bigger rad will always win, so when you propose a bigger rad than Swiftech offers - you win

see how easy that was

now go peddle your products,
you have suckered a bunch of folks into thinking you were going to assist in this technically driven venture
but you're just promoting
carry on

pH
yup, case closed - at least if Pug is the low-flow spokesman

[freeloadingbum]

The pump and power supply combo looks interesting. Is that psu able to vary the voltage? If so, how high, how low, how much$. Also any performance info on the pump? Thanks in advance.

[firtol88]

Originally Posted by Pug

The kit I originally proposed is an alphacool one found here on their site.
pHaestus - let me know whether you want to test this kit, a similar one using a continuous tube radiator and lesser pump or just the block itsself.

Looks to be "not-so-small, not-so-quiet, not-so-compact" how about that and a more stereotypical German maybe this or this heck if you sent all 3 pHaestus could put together most of the kits Alpha offers.

[HAL-9000]

Originally Posted by Pug

For that, I apologise.
Overcome with the daunting task of responding to every criticism I felt levelled at my initial challenge, I lashed out in the wrong direction.
I didn't want to post today as my mind was elsewhere with personal issues but I did feel I had to respond when I caught the chance to read the updated thread.

The kit I originally proposed is an alphacool one found here on their site.
pHaestus - let me know whether you want to test this kit, a similar one using a continuous tube radiator and lesser pump or just the block itself.

I have nothing more to add at this point as the reaction I have provoked in Etacovda saddens me more than you can know.
Only learning that you've had someone's respect after you've lost it is a hard cross to bear.

The Alphacool kit you linked to here looks fine to me Pug. I don't know what all the fuss is about. Swiftech has a dual 120mm radiator as well in their kits. And any deficiency between the rads I think is somewhat made up by the fact it looks like a MCP600 pump looks to be a more capable and robust unit than that pump in the Alphacool kit.

One thing that I find kind of strange though, that kit costs 270 Euros...in Europe. Currency conversion tells me same price without shipping and import costs would be $330 in dollars factory direct from Alphacool. For $350, I can get a MC5002-PT and Meanwell power-supply with the Swiftech kit again factory direct. In other words, for very near the same money, the Swiftech kit will crush that Alphacool in temps. Now I know that going off into pelt world is in no way part of this, but that Alphacool kit is really expensive for the parts! Why so much moolah for that thing, even at local Europe prices? Ouch!

EDIT-I was wrong on the pricing, sorry Pug. Swiftech direct for the TEC stuff would be $440 altogether. My bad, its not as bad as I thought price wise. The Swifty 22600 kits with blocks though hover around $220...considerably cheaper than $330.

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by HAL-9000

The Alphacool kit you linked to here looks fine to me Pug. I don't know what all the fuss is about. Swiftech has a dual 120mm radiator as well in their kits. And any deficiency between the rads I think is somewhat made up by the fact it looks like a MCP600 pump looks to be a more capable and robust unit than that pump in the Alphacool kit.

One thing that I find kind of strange though, that kit costs 270 Euros...in Europe. Currency conversion tells me same price without shipping and import costs would be $330 in dollars factory direct from Alphacool. For $350, I can get a MC5002-PT and Meanwell power-supply with the Swiftech kit again factory direct. In other words, for very near the same money, the Swiftech kit will crush that Alphacool in temps. Now I know that going off into pelt world is in no way part of this, but that Alphacool kit is really expensive for the parts! Why so much moolah for that thing, even at local Europe prices? Ouch!

that price includes VAT at 16% (the rate in germany...) so the pre-tax price (which would apply to an exported kit) would be just under 233Euro... just under $288...

sadly watercooling stuff is more expensive this side of the pond
a meanwell alone goes for about £85 plus VAT here - nearly $158.....

these are the prices of swiftech kits in the UK...
http://www.overclock.co.uk/customer/home.php?cat=540

[Pug]

BillA = "a bigger rad will always win"
Always my argument in the past (allowing for appropriate fannage, of course). Thanks for agreeing with me at last - I seem to remember when you advocated that "flow is everything", a point I have had to contend with from many adamant posters on the web who think their single 120mm setup outperforms my twin & triple rads because they run with a 1250 pump and wide bore tubing.

I don't see the allegations of marketing to be a valid point in a thread dedicated to discussing the advantages & disadvantages of German (and US) systems. I see it as me sharing my experience with these types of parts and highlighting shortcomings with the opposite approach. Recolour "salesman with a passion" as devil's advocate or enthusiast with a different viewpoint if it stops you thinking of it as such. I've long acted as a self-appointed ambassador of the Euro approach and Ithink even Cathar can quote me on that one from a past discussion elsewhere.


As a Brit, I have always seen your typical US kit as a large hose (generally using barbed fittings with the exception of the Swiftech range), powerful pump (E1250 or equivalent) and a shrouded heatercore accommodating a single 120mm fan.
German systems on the other hand, to my mind, comprise smaller diameter tubing (generally using plug in fittings), a low to mid range pump (E1046/48) and a twin or triple 120mm fan radiator.

Admittedly, this is from someone who spends a lot more time on places like Bit-tech (as mentioned) and Ars Technica rather than here. Going through my memory of the BT Extreme Kooling Gallery, I seem to remember a reinforcement of this viewpoint. (Chew Toy's system here falls in with it too.)
My own entries into the Bit gallery include one each of a triple, twin & single fan rad, with the single fan one that's now running an 80mm rad (after I borked my 120 rad) cooling CPU, GPU & HDD being the bastard child of the group wrt the "traditional" approach because it is cooling the least heat producing machine.


Phaestus, I can't admit the US DIYers were mostly right. As I said, the majority of US systems I saw (including your PC-50, which swung me into buying one, only to find that mine had no removable tray) had big tubing and a single 120mm fan rad, I have seen about as many dual 120 rads in US rigs as single fan rads in German systems (ie. nowhere near as many as the other way around).

I was thinking back to one of my earliest German systems to confirm that it had a twin-fan rad to reinforce this and whaddya know, I was using the original Airplex (prior to the continuous copper tube Evo), which was in effect a Serck heater core!
Check it out. Some of you must remember that rig.
Can I get an apology yet?


Where there are advantages to be had, you can be sure I'll do my best to investigate them for my own ends.
As an enthusiast, I even have a few of the best non-production heatercore examples I've been able to find in my own personal collection.
If I could find a production equivalent of the one on the bottom right with suitable fittings at a fair price, guaranteed I'd jump on it. Fitting it easily into one of my systems... well, that's another story.


HAL - in the UK, the 22501 kit comes out at £190.35 (overclock.co.uk), the kit I linked is £199 (ahem, my place). Source - CustomPC magazine, Issue 011, August 2004

[SlaterSpeed]

Guys guys!

Pug - It think what most of us are trying to say is that we dont care about 'German vs USA' We dont care who makes things we only care about the products themselves. Theres no benifit in us testing a highflow german kit vs a highflow US kit just to proove that the germans can make one. We dont care about prooving that US is better, We are not a group of USA highflow fanboys you know!

What we want to do is test the 2 differant approches to watercooling. Yes we say 'US vs German' but we dont mean it litraly. Lowflow setups have been known as German type setups for along time now so sometimes we say German when we mean lowflow. We dont litraly mean made in germany

But anyway what we want is a comparison of Lowflow vs Highflow, a comparison of the 2 differant approces to watercooling. This would be of real benifit to our community where as Us highflow vs German highflow would not. The kit your offering will not give us this comparison we need and therfore we dont see any point in testing it. Its not because we are scared of it winning and prooving that a german kit beat a US kit because all it would relly proove is the Alphacool kit beat the swiftech kit. We could not draw any bigger conclusions than that.

If you relly care about getting some useful information out of this testing then submitt a lowflow setup! The reason Bill and Cathar and others are getting annoyed with you is that all your thinking of is winning and hence furthering your buisness. Thats not what pro cooling is all about. We dont do things for a commercial gain in anyway. We do it to gather information to help us and others in the watercooling world

I hope you understand

slater...

[BillA]

the following is directed to Pug

get your effing head out of your ass
clear ?

"Thanks for agreeing with me at last . . . ."
this is sanctimonious bull shit, see my first post on pg 1 (and later again)
-> this is Pug doing self-promotion (everybody SEE, Pug knew before anyone else)

"I seem to remember when you advocated that "flow is everything"
ok shit-for-brains (aka slow learner, you were warned about quoting me), provide the quote
- please visit www.thermal-management-testing.com and learn, in my words, what else there is besides (coolant) flow rates

"I have always seen your typical US kit as large hose . . . "
"As I said, the majority of US systems I saw had big tubing and a single 120mm fan rad . . ."
you have the vision of a bat
I suspect that I can say that Swiftech is the largest supplier of WCing gear in the US:
Swiftech has never offered a 1/2" ID tubing system
Swiftech started with a single 120mm fan rad with 1/4"ID tubing, have not offered one in years
- a most penetrating market analysis there Pug

you have no respect here Pug (from Bill Adams, eh ?)
you fabricate quotations,
take them out of context,
make false generalizations,
and create confusion with your continous self promotion ("I" this, "I" that)

and you say "Can I get an apology yet?"
rhetorically I would ask, for what ?

[Silent Bob]

Here in Portugal we also have our own "Pug".

They try to convince an audience that something is the way they say it is, even if they don´t have the technical knowledge to backup their claims. These marketing skills usually work with the regular custumer. But the Procooling forums users are proving to be some very tough custumers! After all, this is the place "Where the completely addicted come to talk".
I don´t think Pug is doing this with bad intentions, but people like Cathar or BillA tend to overreact when someone puts their scientific knowlegde in doubt without providing technical proof for doing so. These guys only trust hard data from rigorous testing, which they work so hard to achieve.

The Wcing kit described by Pug as "adequate"(Low-flow block/Low-flow pump/Restrictive radiator/1/8" fittings/6mm tube ID) is certainly the most common setup here in Europe. It's strongest point is the easy routing of the tube inside the case.

But he proposes a "performance"kit for testing(Low-flow block/High-flow pump/heatercore type radiator/1/4" fittings/8mm tube ID). Which is a clear approach to a US kit. Eheim 1046 is the norm here and anything above a 1048 is almost impossible to be found in an EU system. The use of Black Ice radiators is becoming increasingly popular in Europe because of the reasons I already said before.

It makes no sense to test this european "performance" kit against a US "performance" kit, because the main difference between the two of them would be the waterblock. So it would make more sense to just test the waterblocks.

What troubles me is that here in europe the common watercooling user sees the results in WCP and extrapolates them into a "Low-flow system kicks ass of High-Flow system". That's why I would like to see a "adequate" typical EU system versus a typical US system. For that end, I agree on the choices of Alphacool vs Swiftech.

Now, let´s stop bashing Pug and give the man a chance to at least supply the material to pHaestus.

edit: just read BillA's post... guess all hope is now lost for a peaceful solution then.

[BillA]

SB

I'll stop bashing shit-for-brains Pug when he stops mis-quoting me

there is a genuine use for low flow systems,
but such is not the performance enthauast's choice
perhaps noise, space constraints, or economics
- but not low flow for high performance

then we will start with the moaning contest about what constitutes an 'acceptable' perforomance hit for less space, noise, etc.

would have been a lot more interesting to test, rather than 'debate' with s-f-b Pug

[pHaestus]

Scheisse! I have to moderate you guys now? Bill can the personal attacks FFS

[Pug]

Originally Posted by unregistered

the following is directed to Pug

get your effing head out of your ass
clear ?

"Thanks for agreeing with me at last . . . ."
this is sanctimonious bull shit, see my first post on pg 1 (and later again)
-> this is Pug doing self-promotion (everybody SEE, Pug knew before anyone else)

"I seem to remember when you advocated that "flow is everything"
ok shit-for-brains (aka slow learner, you were warned about quoting me), provide the quote
- please visit www.thermal-management-testing.com and learn, in my words, what else there is besides (coolant) flow rates

"I have always seen your typical US kit as large hose . . . "
"As I said, the majority of US systems I saw had big tubing and a single 120mm fan rad . . ."
you have the vision of a bat
I suspect that I can say that Swiftech is the largest supplier of WCing gear in the US:
Swiftech has never offered a 1/2" ID tubing system
Swiftech started with a single 120mm fan rad with 1/4"ID tubing, have not offered one in years
- a most penetrating market analysis there Pug

you have no respect here Pug (from Bill Adams, eh ?)
you fabricate quotations,
take them out of context,
make false generalizations,
and create confusion with your continous self promotion ("I" this, "I" that)

and you say "Can I get an apology yet?"
rhetorically I would ask, for what ?

Originally Posted by unregistered

SB

I'll stop bashing shit-for-brains Pug when he stops mis-quoting me

there is a genuine use for low flow systems,
but such is not the performance enthauast's choice
perhaps noise, space constraints, or economics
- but not low flow for high performance

then we will start with the moaning contest about what constitutes an 'acceptable' perforomance hit for less space, noise, etc.

would have been a lot more interesting to test, rather than 'debate' with s-f-b Pug

BillA - "and you say "Can I get an apology yet?"
rhetorically I would ask, for what ?"

I was talking vaguely to Cathar and everyone else who was saying that heatercores are traditionally US... but thanks for the quotables.


Don't worry. I have no intention of holding your words against you. You reinforce my opinion of you is all.

[Pug]

Quote provided - "increased flow WILL result in increased cooling"
Author BillA. Posted February 24, 2003 23:00
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/...5&r=7990933355

Gonna chill yet?

[BillA]

I am not worried Pug, I have written MANY words which I later have to eat
humble pie is a staple at my table; been there, done that - probably be there again
-> but proof requires FACTS, not an uninformed opinion
as you have no facts, . . . .

I asked you to quote me correctly which you declined to do
yet you continue, your last post adds "You reinforce my opinion of you is all."

I sincerely hope so, hopefully you understand that I do not enjoy sparing with fools or knaves; and will call bull shit by its proper name

and your pursuit of this indicates that demonstrating your superiority is more important than any technical aspect under discussion

note that pH has now a bunch of Swiftech parts,
and that I have sent pH an Innovatek XX wb
and you are still talking about how you can position yourself for a 'win'

pH
I can buy a low flow kit and have it shipped directly to you (but when you're done forward the pieces to me)
I think if the Pug guy is removed from the process, it may proceed

[BillA]

Originally Posted by Pug

Quote provided - "increased flow WILL result in increased cooling"
Author BillA. Posted February 24, 2003 23:00
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/...5&r=7990933355

Gonna chill yet?

a goddamn idiot !

1) is that not true ?
2) can it ever be false ?

now please tell us all, does "increased flow WILL result in increased cooling" mean the SAME as your wording, attributed falsely to me, "flow is everything" ?

s-f-b Pug, you are dishonest, a fabricator, manipulative, and give vendors a bad name

hope someone who gets out more than I posts this thread in the forums where you hang out, should do worlds for your image

[Althornin]

Originally Posted by Pug

Quote provided - "increased flow WILL result in increased cooling"
Author BillA. Posted February 24, 2003 23:00
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/...5&r=7990933355

Gonna chill yet?

Increased flow WILL result in increased cooling....hello, you home Pug?
Unless you somehow plan on violating laws of physics.
Thats a thread about pumps - I don't see billa saying "flow is vastly more important than a larger heater core" like you imply.

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by Pug

I was talking vaguely to Cathar and everyone else who was saying that heatercores are traditionally US... but thanks for the quotables.

I never said that. Bring up the quote please. Again you insist on misquoting people and fabricating people's opinions that they never stated, or quite often, said the exact opposite of what you come back and tell us they said. That really is quite a bizzare quirk you have. Truly salesman-like in nature.

The only thing that I said was that the primary market that HWLabs originally targetted was the USA, and the feedback from the USA (and Australia) drove the radiator style that they make. In fact I do recall swapping a fair number of private messages with Willy from HWLabs pushing him fairly hard ot offer a product like the BIX2 to be made about 24 months ago, (about the same time that I was making my dual-fan "Big Arse" radiator which was spawned as a result of BillA's radiator testing work) saying that this was what the market really needed for performance-based systems. At the time, there were no commercial dual-12cm-fan radiator offerings in the USA or Australia. That changed pretty quickly though. I have no idea how much weight my words carried. I'm sure I wasn't the only one saying it to him personally.

Originally Posted by firtol88

So it's settled we get atleast 3 cherry picked kits and run them against one another in a real world setting. Other than finding some way to compensate pHaestus for the monumental amounts of work this could require if preformed to his standards, all that remains now is the creation of guidelines in order to determine a winner

As I suggested, I'm not arrogant enough to presume that I can declare for my country what they feel is their "typical" setup. I setup a series of polls, the results of which can be viewed here. Even if nothing comes out of it, it is at least a useful demographic snap-shot of the state of Australian enthusiast water-cooling for potential marketers to exploit (no doubt).

Re: this thread and what it has developed into.

I really do see no point in continuing with this thread if one person insists on an embarkation of mis-quoting everyone here, putting words into their mouths, and attempting to rewrite history and redefine the original intent of the thread, just to suit their own end.

It's getting pretty old and pointless by now. I just want to see these blocks tested. The blocks are the only thing that's really different in any significant fashion to what is commonly available within Australia or the USA. We can get the same sort of pumps, the same sorts of radiators, the same sorts of fans, and the same tubing. These things are all well-defined (again mostly due to the pioneering testing work of BillA). The only thing that varies is the block, and the performance curve of the block by itself will bring to immediate light whether or not a low-flow system can match it with a hi-flow system.

[pHaestus]

I think that where things are going off the rails in this discussion is the HUGE disconnect between what the typical American watercooler uses and what is offered by complete kits. As Bill said Swiftech is probably the #1 supplier of kits (with I am guessing Koolance close in production numbers?). What percentage of this site's readers have a setup like that though? I notice a fair number of Koolance threads on hardocp, but overclockers and procooling (the major hangouts for US water cooling types) are overwhelmingly DIY. And overwhelmingly we choose heatercores, larger pumps, and 1/2" ID tubing. Over the last year the "popular" pump has changed from being the Eheim 1250 to either the MCP600, D4 Laing, or Danner Mag3.

If I were parting out an "American" kit, I'd put it together at Dangerden using their 6x7 heatercore, shroud, panaflo L1A, 1/2" Coolflex, D4 pump, TDX, and a T connector for filling. Could this setup be outperformed by a kit with a larger radiator? Sure and that's why I personally use a 2-342 core. But my setup isn't typical for Americans I don't feel.

[Cathar]

FWIW - the general consensus so far for what makes a typical "desired" Australia system (aside from the waterblock) is:

Dual-fan 120x240mm heatercore based radiator
1/2" ID tubing throughout
MCP600 or Laing D4 pump - with probably more preference going to the MCP600 on the basis of lower noise
30-35dBA fans - with a caveat. A fair number of people are suggesting the use of substantially more powerful/noisy fans attached to a Rheobus whereby they can be turned down for silence when required, and turned up for hot/noisy activities like going to a LAN - basically suggesting ~45dBA rated fans at 12v on a Rheobus.

Some summarised comments from the readers:

Why needlessly restrict the system with small ID tubing, although some have expressed a desire to use 10mmID tubing if it can be shown to be effectively equal in performance to 1/2" ID tubing for a certain setups, and if commonly available pumps/radiators support that tubing size. None have expressed any desire to use super-strong pumps (Iwaki MD20's or stronger). Most have expressed a desire to use a large radiator with strong fans that they are able to selectively control the speed/noise of as desired.

[pHaestus]

I dunno Cathar I am having a hard time believing that the majority of Australian water coolers have 2x120mm sized heatercores in their rigs. Such practically demands an external enclosure (and isnt very portable for LANs at all)

[Cathar]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

I dunno Cathar I am having a hard time believing that the majority of Australian water coolers have 2x120mm sized heatercores in their rigs. Such practically demands an external enclosure (and isnt very portable for LANs at all)

I said "desired" not "had". Also an admittedly enthusiast point of view when posting at the OCAU extreme cooling forums. Most of these guys probably do have a 120x240mm (or rough equivalent) sized cores. They tend to mount them flat at the tops of their cases, or in the CD-ROM drive bays, or in the lower-front for larger cases. I do agree though that the "mass" Australian market wouldn't be that different to the USA mass market though.

Which brings us back to the point - what are we really testing here? Whether or not a particular manufacturer/reseller happens to sell a certain kit that does align fairly well with the DIY enthusiast point of view? What does that prove though? What does that have to do with "German" vs "USA"?

[firtol88]

I thought we were trying to ascertain weather a "neat, small, quiet, and compact" system could beat a "not-so-neat, not-so-small, not-so-quiet, and not-so-compact" system or come within a less than 2C difference as installed on a high end highly overclocked system. Maybe even determine what the middle ground between the two actually was.

[Blackeagle]

I left this thread weeks ago as I suspected this outcome with regard to Pug.

I'm disgusted to say, he's outdone himself here.

BillA,

I'll set up one of those linkys for him at one site. Every time he starts his marketing BS about the "best watercooling systems", which he sells of course. May help a few there see the light.