Additives & Coolants

[TbirdX]

Being a lazy so and so and being scared half to death by all the technical mumbo jumbo involved in making your own coolant mix, I remembered that back in my racing days I used to use a coolant premix in my Motox bike.
Digging around in the garage yielded some of the stuff I used to use...

Its Silkolene Pro Cool and the blurb on the back says...

50% propylene glycol/water anti-freeze mixture based on an advanced, non toxic formulation.
Gives protection against cavitation and erosion in pumps, compatible with plastics, hoses, paintwork and all metals and with ethylene glycol based anti freeze.

Worth a look maybe??

[EMC2]

Would not have been much more than 2% concentration.

Cather, please define "2% concentration" ... if it's anywhere near what I think, it answers why you had the problems.

----

As I said, you only need a 1ppm concentration at most (i.e. 1mg of pure CuSO4 per liter) To give a rough idea, 1/4 teaspoon is 1 GRAM of powder form, slightly over 1.5 grams of "snow" form (grains that are shaped like rice, but smaller). That means 1/4 teaspoon of pure powder is enough to treat 1000 liters of water (yes, one-thousand).



Marci - obviously the ACBlue is a no-go (10% sulphuric acid, YUCK!)

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by EMC2

Cather, please define "2% concentration" ... if it's anywhere near what I think, it answers why you had the problems.

----

As I said, you only need a 1ppm concentration at most (i.e. 1mg of pure CuSO4 per liter) To give a rough idea, 1/4 teaspoon is 1 GRAM of powder form, slightly over 1.5 grams of "snow" form (grains that are shaped like rice, but smaller). That means 1/4 teaspoon of pure powder is enough to treat 1000 liters of water (yes, one-thousand).

hmm - so i guess itrw progressive dilution is the only way to go........

it is unbelievably cheap though iirc

[Marci]

Well just to fill u in on a discovery or two... knocked up a few loops of ThermoChill Rad (brass), Acrylic Res with black anodised endcaps (aluminium), DD TDX Block (copper). In each system was a single additive and distilled water. Additives were mixed to the manufacturers instructions (as translated into useable ml figures over at www.racingcoolant.com) for the purpose of this test. Systems were left to run for 5 days. Will produce a pic or two once everything else has been done.

Just on a visuals side of things...

Zerex Super Racing Coolant left the coolant looking the best, clear with a hint of pinky purple, v.little noticeable cloudiness or sediment. No staining. No noticeable corrosion. Zerex has always been my personal preference.

WaterWetter - stained the acrylic badly, instantly cloudy, white sediment visible. No noticeable corrosion.

PurpleIce - no staining, instantly cloudy and very murky looking water, white sediment visible but in lower quantities than with water wetter. No noticeable corrosion.

Marci - obviously the ACBlue is a no-go (10% sulphuric acid, YUCK!)

Just to physically prove that point (altho the bottle we received stated 5.3% on it's label)...
AC Blue - trashed everything!! Corrosion everywhere. Black Anodised endcaps in res ended up a nice deep browny red and powdery surface.

Obviously the above was ACBlue on it's own with distilled, no other additive. Asking for trouble I know, but wanted to see what happened.

Deep Blue UV Dye - clear, no visible corrosion YET, no staining (surprised me did that one - expected it to stain more than waterwetter did), no sediment YET. Always takes a week or two to appear tho with UV Dye... Occasional small bubble on surface of res endcap for no apparent reason implies corrosion taking place altho not yet visble to the eye particularly.



Each system is still sat, sealed, waiting for pH test... not bothered about CPU Temps etc as a result of the additives at the moment.

[Jimbo Mahoney]

Originally Posted by Marci

WaterWetter - stained the acrylic badly, instantly cloudy, white sediment visible. No noticeable corrosion.

Could this white sediment be silicates precipitating out?

[Marci]

More than likely, yep.

[Jimbo Mahoney]

Me hopes waterwetter does well, as that's what I plan to use and can get it cheap!

[EMC2]

Was ordering supplies for my aquariums the other day and did a "doh!", remembered something you might want to ponder while you're in the test mode...

SeaChem makes a buffered copper additive called Cupramine for aquarium use that doesn't have any sulfates (for your algacide ponderings)... although I was fairly sure it would be fine I went ahead and queried them directly with this:

I noticed cupramine has an amine bonded to the copper. Is there a possible issue with its use causing corrosive effects on metal parts of pumps, etc." and also "is it absorbed into or affect tubing of any kind?"

(notice I didn't say waterblocks, lol)

and received this as an answer from their technical staff:

It should not affect pump or parts at all. It is generally not absorbed or adsorbed by any of the tubing used in aquaria. It should have no effect in either case.

Cheers

[BillA]

ok, what would an effective test method be ?

[Brians256]

Effective?

1) Accelerated life-cycle testing in a lab.
2) Statistical analysis based upon a large and diverse study group.

Neither is cheap or easy.

How about a half-arsed test method! That'd be easier. Sorry, just being cynical.

For the accelerated life cycle testing, you could use high temperatures to increase the precipitation effects at the expense of testing for biological growths (high temps kill off critters). So, you could do batches of coolant that were "cooked" for different lengths of time and then test their effects upon pumps and then test for their effectiveness at continuing to provide protection against biological growths and galvanic corrosion.

There's always the chalkboard research method, where you look at the ingredient list and just estimate what long-term effects will be and then make a wild guess as to the magnitude of problems you will encounter.

Fri 18 Mar 2005: edited for spelling and forgetting corrosion protection

[BillA]

might be a bit easier to separate the biological from corrosion as it is not difficult to build systems with fairly low galvanic potentials
my interest is kinda limited as we have a product which inhibits both, with less than 0.1% glycol
- yet antifreeze is still used ?

why should I bother ?
this seems more like an info 'problem' than anything technical

[Brians256]

I don't think anyone should bother about it, really.

- glycol mixtures are incredibly cheap but high viscosity
- commercial antifreeze alternatives (water wetter, et al) are fairly cheap and low viscosity but leave deposits (as they are designed to do in an engine) thus requiring more maintenance
- commercial water cooler products are low viscosity and leave no deposits but are more expensive
- other home-made mixtures are going to be hit-or-miss in terms of effectiveness, long-term stability, potential damage to tubing/pumps/blocks, may cost more than commercial watercooling mixes if you are doing small batches, etc....

Pick your poison based upon your tolerance for temperature, maintenance, cost and the unknown, no? That is, unless you are willing to do the same research that Swiftech and other companies have done. And it still may cost more than them, as you may end up paying $15 for an additive that could be spread across 15,000 gallons of coolant.

edited to add 4th coolant option (the home-made additives)

[EMC2]

Originally Posted by unregistered

ok, what would an effective test method be ?

Algacide effectiveness is well tested and a known (for both copper in general and cupramine). See ad naseum research papers and documented uses in everything from aquaria to lakes.

The question involves corrosion issues and specifically the amines used in cupramine. You know what effective testing involves Bill

That having been said, Marci posted he was in the middle of a simple test... so I offered him a relatively low cost alternative for his previously stated algacide concerns.

Cheers.

[TbirdX]

Originally Posted by Marci

Well just to fill u in on a discovery or two... knocked up a few loops of ThermoChill Rad (brass), Acrylic Res with black anodised endcaps (aluminium), DD TDX Block (copper). In each system was a single additive and distilled water. Additives were mixed to the manufacturers instructions (as translated into useable ml figures over at www.racingcoolant.com) for the purpose of this test. Systems were left to run for 5 days. Will produce a pic or two once everything else has been done.

Just on a visuals side of things...

Zerex Super Racing Coolant left the coolant looking the best, clear with a hint of pinky purple, v.little noticeable cloudiness or sediment. No staining. No noticeable corrosion. Zerex has always been my personal preference.

WaterWetter - stained the acrylic badly, instantly cloudy, white sediment visible. No noticeable corrosion.

PurpleIce - no staining, instantly cloudy and very murky looking water, white sediment visible but in lower quantities than with water wetter. No noticeable corrosion.


Just to physically prove that point (altho the bottle we received stated 5.3% on it's label)...
AC Blue - trashed everything!! Corrosion everywhere. Black Anodised endcaps in res ended up a nice deep browny red and powdery surface.

Obviously the above was ACBlue on it's own with distilled, no other additive. Asking for trouble I know, but wanted to see what happened.

Deep Blue UV Dye - clear, no visible corrosion YET, no staining (surprised me did that one - expected it to stain more than waterwetter did), no sediment YET. Always takes a week or two to appear tho with UV Dye... Occasional small bubble on surface of res endcap for no apparent reason implies corrosion taking place altho not yet visble to the eye particularly.



Each system is still sat, sealed, waiting for pH test... not bothered about CPU Temps etc as a result of the additives at the moment.

Any update on the state of things Marci??

[Marci]

Nope.... sidetracked by more pressing matters (PA160.1 radiator) at the mo...

[TbirdX]

Cheers for the answer. I'm just curious as I'll be setting up my system very soon and was looking for a good coolant mixture to use. Keep us informed when you get a chance please

[Delirious]

Ive been looking for an alternative additive as well. Although i like the zerex i use now it still stains the tubeing but not nearly as bad as water wetter. I would be nice to just put distilled water and a biocide in and not have to worry about staining of tubeing.