Calling all Snap 4000 Users...

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by blue68f100

You still have a weak power supply to deal with. And yes as long as you stay under the 1T limit and have a PS strong enough to handle startup and normal load.

Correct, and let's not forget heat also.

Originally Posted by blue68f100

But you need to test your own unit to know for sure. This also means checking to weather you have a v3 or greater hardware. Version 1 & 2 have problems handling drive failures, particularly if drive 1 or 2 fails. The drives are configured differently, and only 1 is propoer for it to work.

Wait for Phoenix to respond if you need more detail, but he will need to know what hardware version you have.

He said it was a -004 earlier, so I am going on that. Which means using C/S mode and avoiding Seagate Drives.

Originally Posted by blue68f100

But you can by 4 WD2500SE RE (250gig) drives for around $71 each yield a higher capacity. Remember that in raid 5 use 1 drive for parity, so 3 x 320 -320 = ~640gig give or take.

The WD RE 250 GB drives would be a great choice for this unit. A little more money, but drives that are worth it IMO. BTW, it would be less than 600 GB. 320 GB drives format to a little under 300 GB as I recall (too many numbers to remember them all). Those WD RE drives would give him right at 701 GB formatted and in RAID 5.

[Phoenix32]

Originally Posted by Sifter

Yes I still have yet to order my modded power supply.

You better hurry then. I only have 2 available.

After that, they are gone gone gone

[Sifter]

Originally Posted by Phoenix32

The WD RE 250 GB drives would be a great choice for this unit. A little more money, but drives that are worth it IMO. BTW, it would be less than 600 GB. 320 GB drives format to a little under 300 GB as I recall (too many numbers to remember them all). Those WD RE drives would give him right at 701 GB formatted and in RAID 5.

Soo... I almost have the greediness out of my system. Thank you both for your replies.

Since the system formats the 320 drives at a little less than 300 gig each, and then minus one more for parity, technically would I still be under the 1TB limit if I were to purchase 4 320gig drives and put them in a raid 5? Or does the snap server calculate the total storage before it takes into account the formated space and parity?

By my calculations on previous 320gig drives, they format out to be 298gig.

So, 298gig x 4 = 1.192TB - 298gig (parity) = 894gig in a raid 5.

$74.99 x 4 = $299.96

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Also, my 250gig drives format out to be 231gig.

So, 231gig x 4 = 924gig - 231gig (parity) = 693gig in a raid 5.

$59.99 x 4 = $239.96

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There is 200gig difference, I guess I have to ask myself is it worth $60. And even before I can answer that, if it will even work with my above scenario.

Set me straight Phoenix

[blue68f100]

The snap will not handle 4 320gig drives is raid 5 Exceds the limits. You can only use 3. The reason I suggested using 4 250gig.

[Phoenix32]

Damn David, this guy is almost as hung up on the 320's as I was, but wishing don't change anything.

Sorry Sifter, it don't work that way. You may only see 900 GB of storage, but there is still another 300 GB of parity data there that the OS and hardware has to deal with. In other words, the OS sees all 1.2TB of it. Which equals not supported. It tries, and may appear to work, but it doesn't. At least not correctly.

So one LAST TIME... 4 x 250 GB like we have told you about 5 times now... -OR- Use RAID 1 mirror Arrays and individual drives, not RAID 0 or RAID 5.

[Sifter]

Originally Posted by blue68f100

The snap will not handle 4 320gig drives is raid 5 Exceds the limits. You can only use 3. The reason I suggested using 4 250gig.

Originally Posted by Phoenix32

Damn David, this guy is almost as hung up on the 320's as I was, but wishing don't change anything.

Sorry Sifter, it don't work that way. You may only see 900 GB of storage, but there is still another 300 GB of parity data there that the OS and hardware has to deal with. In other words, the OS sees all 1.2TB of it. Which equals not supported. It tries, and may appear to work, but it doesn't. At least not correctly.

So one LAST TIME... 4 x 250 GB like we have told you about 5 times now... -OR- Use RAID 1 mirror Arrays and individual drives, not RAID 0 or RAID 5.

Ok Ok Ok! Thank you again for your responses, I will order the 250gig drives shortly.

This new hobby is getting expensive, have a 2000 on the way as well...

[blue68f100]

Read the FAQ's when you get your 2000. Most every thing is documented.

[Sifter]

What is everyone using to backup their snaps? Tape? s2s? Im looking at possibly pushing all my data to an online storage vender, which allows me to manage my own encryption keys.

Any info on the type of backups of your snaps you are using. Specifically for the 4000 and 2000 models.

[blue68f100]

Most are using s2s, the reason we have multiple units. I backup my 2200 to my 4500 and 4500 to snap10. Don't own a tape unit, would be nice the 4500 has a scsi card for that purpose. With snapshots it allows you to backup a busy server with taking it off line.

[Sifter]

Originally Posted by blue68f100

Most are using s2s, the reason we have multiple units. I backup my 2200 to my 4500 and 4500 to snap10. Don't own a tape unit, would be nice the 4500 has a scsi card for that purpose. With snapshots it allows you to backup a busy server with taking it off line.

Ive looked around on adaptec's site, and cant find a pricing guide for s2s...how much did you purchase it for? My 4000 unit didnt come with s2s, and havent received my 2000 yet, so dont know about this one either. I would need 2 unique licenses for s2s to function.

[blue68f100]

The s2s use to be $200 I think. The newer version is called EDR (something) for the guardian OS, but there is a newer version that works on Snap OS too. You may need to contact them to get current pricing.

Since I have a PC doing the snmp thing, I run SyncToy by MS, it's free.

[Phoenix32]

With the SNAP OS units, S2S is the best and most efficient way to back them up. S2S will allow you to back up one unit to another, on a schedule. Any other method I am aware of will require a PC/Server running to do the backups (SNAP1 to PC/Server to SNAP2), not very efficient and room for more problems.

When I was using the SNAP OS units, the S2S is how I did it. I backed up each SNAP to another SNAP. Combined with RAID 5, and having a spare SNAP unit in case the hardware itself failed, this was the most secure.

[Sifter]

Originally Posted by blue68f100

The s2s use to be $200 I think. The newer version is called EDR (something) for the guardian OS, but there is a newer version that works on Snap OS too. You may need to contact them to get current pricing.

Since I have a PC doing the snmp thing, I run SyncToy by MS, it's free.

Sales doesn't even sell s2s anymore. I just called and asked. They only sell EDR, which is only compatible with guardianOS. So anyone looking to purchase s2s, your out of luck.

[Phoenix32]

This was sent to me in PM and I felt it worthy of posting in this thread...

Originally Posted by Sifter

Fry's has a really good deal on these drives! Free shipping too. So exactly what have you seen with the cable select issue with Seagate drives?

$49.99 and free shipping is cheap!

http://shop4.outpost.com/product/4596257

This goes beyond what you asked, but is in the spirit of what you asked.

Okay for starters, keep in mind I have been in this field for a lot of years (30+), and at one point, was in a shop in the military where our shop was responsible for many thousands of computers. Because it was a military installation, dead hard drives could not be just thrown out. They had to be destroyed. The place that did the destruction (with huge magnets that would literaly rip the drive units apart) only did it for us once a year. So, until that one time a year, we had to store those dead drives in a large walk in safe for security purposes (the drive could have classified material on them). Keep this in mind when I tell you I am familiar with failure rates of various hard drives companies.

When I worked in that shop, we had a ton, and I do mean a ton, of dead hard drives. Guess which brand had the highest number of dead drives per units in the field? Yup, Maxtor. Guess who was second? Seagate. Guess who was last? Western Digital (with Quantum, who is no longer around in close rear also). Now you know why I use WD drives. Yes, it has been a few years since then, and drive companies do change over time, but my personal experiences and work in another civilian shop (also large) says it aint changed that much if you get my drift.


Now let's talk about the drives you put a link to. First of all, those are 7200.8 revision Seagates. Go read the reviews on that model. The 7200.7 and current 7200.10 model had decent reviews, but the 7200.8 models got terrible reviews with high failure rates (the 7200.9 weren't much better). They were not very well loved by the community. That right there is reason enough to pass over those drives, and should tell you why they are so cheap...

Next, and more direct to what you asked. I won't go into all the boring details, but I can tell you what happened when using 4 Seagate 7200.9 250 GB drives in a SNAP 4000. When in C/S, like they should be in a -003 or -004 model, the drives would drop in and out, kind of like when you have a weak power supply. But when in M/S, they would work fine. With 4 Quantum 30 GB drives or 4 WD 250 GB drives, this did not happen, but it did with the 4 Seagate 250 GB drives. I found the root cause down the road (long and boring topic), but Seagate's lousy tech support when it comes to utilities made the solution that much more difficult to achieve.

So use M/S right? Sure, go ahead. But here is a little dirty secret about the SNAP 4000 for you. There is a reason the -003 and -004 versions went to C/S. If you are in M/S mode, RAID 5, and a drive fails, if you reboot the unit with the failed drive removed or that drive's electronics fails (anything that makes that drive disappear to the controller), the 4000 will fail the other drive. What happens in a RAID 5 array when 2 drives fail (are failed)? Yup, bye bye data... Not a very secure RAID 5 is it? Thus, they made a mod for the -003 and -004 revisions so this would not happen. They use C/S mode. And before someone asks, even though all of this is covered in another message thread, the revision -001 and -002 can be used in C/S mode, but you have to modify the cables.

So, what have I seen with the C/S issue? Or a better question, what do I think about using those Seagate drives? I think it is clear here, but just in case. I myself don't think very highly of it. To use crap drives that are known for heat and high failure rates in most likely a mode that prevents a good secure RAID 5 in a SNAP 4000, is just not a good idea in my opinion. Simple as that.


Disclaimer: I know some people swear by Seagate drives and even use large quanities of them for various reasons and your experiences may be different. If you like Seagate drives, more power to you. Use them if you like. If you disagree, then please feel free to tell Sifter all about it and let him make up his own mind. But DO NOT try to start a debate with me about it or send me e-mail or PM about it. If you are a Seagate fanboy, I doubt I will be able to change your mind (nor do I care to waste time trying), but I can assure you that you won't change my view on it. So just leave it be. And yes, I am aware of the various warranties offered by the various companies. Just remember, that warranty does not cover YOUR DATA!

[Phoenix32]

As a Side Note. This message thread has had a lot of debate about size of drives and brands and price etc. That makes me want to say a few words in general on that subject.

Remember what this part of the forum is all about. Network Attached Storage. Which also translates into "Secure" storage. There is a reason the multi drive units support RAID modes. It is to protect your valuable data. And anyone who says it is not that important or valuable, I call them a liar. Why? Because wait until they lose all that data and watch the bitching and crying begin, that's why.

These units are not really all that cheap (the 4 drive units, SNAP or Guardian). And 4 drives of any size is not that cheap either. So why go cheap in the end with so much already invested?

There are a few professionals here on the forum, and some questions relating to use in that atmosphere. But for the most part, the vast majority of the stuff that flows through this forum is for personal use. Very few have redundant backups and so on and so forth, and most expect their units to do their job quietly in the background for a long time to come. Fair enough, BUT...

The majority of these units were intended for controlled environments, with regular maintenance and backup systems in place (enterprise use mostly). This does not mean they won't work for home/personal use, but let's not cripple them with cheap crap in them and then get upset when it fails or does not last as long as you expected when you put cheap crap in them and you lose your data.

Why am I on my soap box here? Easy. A lot of conversations I have been involved in have had to do with limits of the OS, limits of the Power Supply, and so on and so forth. Limits. It's a good thing to stretch a unit to a REASONABLE safe limit, but not so good to take a good thing TOO far. The idea here is to have good reliable units that will keep your data safe. This is NOT accomplished by pressing forward with cheap drives, unreliable drives, jerry-rigged units, poor cooling, or taking a power supply past 150% what it's rated at, etc. etc. etc.

For Sifter, and anyone else who cares, take care of your units. Put them in safe locations with adequate air flow. Buy quality drives. Keep things within reasonable limits and you will have a nice long life for your data, your sanity, and the unit being used. And in the end, it will cost you less overall if you do this.


Sorry for the rant, but it needed said...


David, would you like to add anything to all of this? (or my previous message)

[Sifter]

Originally Posted by Phoenix32

Thus, they made a mod for the -003 and -004 revisions so this would not happen. They use C/S mode. And before someone asks, even though all of this is covered in another message thread, the revision -001 and -002 can be used in C/S mode, but you have to modify the cables.

So my 4000 unit has rainbow looking ide cables with a notch of wire that is missing. Im assuming these are the modified cables? But are they really needed?

[Phoenix32]

Yes...

[Phoenix32]

Attention Sifter (and anyone who might care),


I have all but decided to put my last SNAP 4000 up for sale. It is a -003 model, with SNAP OS 4.0.860, 128 MB SDRAM, and best of all, already has a MOD power supply installed. It has been tested 50 ways from Sunday and works like a champion.

I have not decided for 100% sure (but I am at about 99.8%), and so have not made up an eBay add for it yet. But, I thought I might give first crack to the people here (and I would prefer it to go to someone here than open eBay). If you are interested, send me a PM or an e-mail, and what you might be willing to offer for it (please don't insult either of us).


Again, my appologies to anyone who might see this as abuse of the forum (selling here), but that is not my intent. My intent is to provide first crack to this community rather than the crowd at large, nothing more.


Side Note: If/When I sell this unit, that puts me out of the SNAP 4000 end of things because I won't be able to test anymore. I have 1 MOD power supply left. When that's gone, that means the end of them from me if I sell this 4000 (I won't sell a MOD P/S if I can't test it first).

[Phoenix32]

Well, there it is... The Last of the SNAP 4000/4100 stuff for the Phoenix...

My last SNAP 4000 and last two MOD power supplies are gone gone gone... I don't have any SNAP 4000/4100 units or parts left except maybe some memory and a set of cables left (for a 4000). In fact, the only thing SNAP OS I have now is a lone SNAP 1000 I still use once in a blue moon.

Those looking for a MOD power supply, sorry, but you will have to look elsewhere. Without having a unit to test in now, I can no longer make them (I won't make something I can't test).

Phoenix32 is now out of the SNAP OS unit stuff and into the Guardian unit stuff. I have done quite a bit of work on the Guardian units now and have spare parts and hardware knowldge there now for those who need help.

[bkortleven]

I'm getting confused now...
Everything I read, until now, about the 4000's, was mentioning a limit of 80GB disks, and now everyone is talking about putting 250GB disks in theirs...?

And... the 4.xxxx software, is it up for download?
I have a 3.4.790 firmware on a 2.2.1 hardware revision 4000 series, currently holding 2 60GB and 2 80GB disks...

Anyone able to tell me what the maximum expansion of this machine is (or where to find that info?) and how I could get hold of a v4.xxxx series firmware for my box?

Thanks!

[blue68f100]

The weak part of a 4000 is the power supply. Installing big HD can cause this to fail. The can support LBA48 (HD>137gig), OS limit 1T. I do not recommend installing any thing greater than 250. The fewer platters you have to spin up on startup the better. Large HD with3+ platters tax the PS pretty bad on startup.

read the faq's....

[Max8]

Hey bkortleven

V4 is now available on Overland Storage's website as a free download... someone a few weeks back actually had a link to it in there post in this forum...

I have a 4000 that had a dodgy PSU and there is a way to convert a standard PSU but I hope you don't have to go to those lengths which includes enlisting someone who is qualified to to electronics... I was lucky I have a mate who has a mate so mine cost me 2x Cases.

As Phoenix mandated 6+ times over the length of this post; In terms of drives don't even consider putting bigger than 250GB for a Raid 5 it may appear to work but it will only cause issues... but if you have to do try it.

Also consider this... It takes a very long time to copy any large amount of data to a relatively slow 4000 through its 10/100 Nic port, stick to 4x 80GB's or 4x 160's or whatever you have laying around...

[ronbo2000]

I went to the Overland site and registered. Since my device is still in in the 2.3.417 OS version, do I go through steps of upgrading? (i.e. start with Snap Server Manager v3.2.013 Web Install and then go up for each version?)

Or am I looking at the wrong download in updating my OS (assuming snap-tech pulls through with the recovery)? I also could not find the version 4.083. I must be looking at the wrong page.

[bitor]

ronbo2000:

You can jump to v3.4.805 then v4.0.860 if you like in the SnapOS versions to be safe.
Use the Assist program to upgrade the SnapOS. Make sure everything is working ok after the OS installed before you start putting data on the unit again.

I'm glad you found Snap-Tech. It would be nice if he would be easier to contact for the members/users here. So far, it is not common knowledge how to get a hold of him for data recovery. I know it might not be used much, but it would be nice if he would dedicate an email address for the members here just in case somebody needs his services.

bitor

Originally Posted by ronbo2000

I went to the Overland site and registered. Since my device is still in in the 2.3.417 OS version, do I go through steps of upgrading? (i.e. start with Snap Server Manager v3.2.013 Web Install and then go up for each version?)

Or am I looking at the wrong download in updating my OS (assuming snap-tech pulls through with the recovery)? I also could not find the version 4.083. I must be looking at the wrong page.

[ronbo2000]

My problem was I could not find the v4.0.860 online. I will follow your advise to do the two step update.

As for snap-tech, he actually responded to the email address I found here except his frontlinedatarecovery email no longer works. He's been out on a trip I think, that's why he has not responded immediately.

Also I just don't know if he responded was because blue68f100 was able to reach him via phone when blue68f100 was trying to assists earlier.