Zalman Reserator 1 - Fanless Watercooling

[AngryAlpaca]

Amb air = 24 C
Ave water = 33/37 C
CPU = 39/45 C

Congrats? I think you strongly support our point. An RBX (0.13C/W [not even the best]) with a Procore (0.024C/W) will get, at 100W, and I don't think you're at 100W, 39C at load and that's without secondary heat losses, as you would be experiencing... You have proven that the Reserator is indeed not as good as top of the line aircooling, and I believe you're only showing what many of us have suspected: it's not the best, it's not the cheapest, but it's the best silent cooler available.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by satanicoo

There are fanless heatsinks...

Like the Zen Heatlane?
Interesting device - but it does require airflow over it (typically pulled over it by a power supply fan) and clearly states that it is just for running office apps and browsing the web.
IMHO, if you're going to limit what you're doing to that, why not build a system with a low-wattage CPU, like the Via C3? I've built at least a couple systems with 1G C3s that had heatsinks only (no fan) and were plenty fast enough for just office apps and browsing the web. As an added bonus, you're fine with a 150W power supply, so less heat being generated there as well. I vaguely remember that the C3s used around 8W. If you used an 800MHz processor, you could use a completely fanless setup (power supply was two parts - a "brick" and a DC-to-DC converter inside the case. I think these may have actually come without a heatsink on the CPU (not sure - never built one of these).

[HammerSandwich]

Originally Posted by gone_fishin

NO....... you do not like water to metal contact ratio increased?

Only if it lowers the water temp more than it increases the price.

Originally Posted by gone_fishin

Someone explain to me... why a $200+ cooling system, that doesn't cool any better than stock, is not junk because you can still use the resevoir? That is like saying your new expensive color television lost it's color but you can still use it for a lampstand.

People who decide the Reserator meets their needs aren't spending YOUR money, GF. Even after reading your issues with the Reserator, I see it as a viable choice for those who value silence above temperature and don't have the time or experience to tackle a DIY project. Is that summary unfair?

[gone_fishin]

Originally Posted by HammerSandwich

Only if it lowers the water temp more than it increases the price.

Fat chance on that, the price is too high as it is now. If they developed something that could actually cool better than stock and be silent, I would hate to see their asking price.

Originally Posted by HammerSandwich

People who decide the Reserator meets their needs aren't spending YOUR money, GF. Even after reading your issues with the Reserator, I see it as a viable choice for those who value silence above temperature and don't have the time or experience to tackle a DIY project. Is that summary unfair?

People who decide it meets their needs will most likely be someone who knows very little of watercooling and gets duped by the type of advice in this thread. It is not your money either so why should you care to promote a paper mache product?

[spinky]

robotech please prove the reserator cools better than stock so GF can stfu and stop trolling the thread kthxbye

[satanicoo]

Originally Posted by bobkoure

Like the Zen Heatlane?
Interesting device - but it does require airflow over it (typically pulled over it by a power supply fan) and clearly states that it is just for running office apps and browsing the web.
IMHO, if you're going to limit what you're doing to that, why not build a system with a low-wattage CPU, like the Via C3? I've built at least a couple systems with 1G C3s that had heatsinks only (no fan) and were plenty fast enough for just office apps and browsing the web. As an added bonus, you're fine with a 150W power supply, so less heat being generated there as well. I vaguely remember that the C3s used around 8W. If you used an 800MHz processor, you could use a completely fanless setup (power supply was two parts - a "brick" and a DC-to-DC converter inside the case. I think these may have actually come without a heatsink on the CPU (not sure - never built one of these).

Hummnn, haven't really checked that it was only for office apps and browsing the web. Kinda useless then.

Originally Posted by spinky

robotech please prove the reserator cools better than stock so GF can stfu and stop trolling the thread kthxbye

No need for the harsh behavior.
Assuming that reserator cools better then the stock cooling (wich i believe that is what happens), even in this case it is not that what the users buing reserator are looking for.
They are looking for a system wich can cool just enouf to run their cpu without having problems, both of them do that.

What this users will not find on stock cooling is silence. IMO, they aren't even silent, they are 'normal' AFAIK.
I have never tried also an Zalman CSPS 7000 CU, so i cant say for sure if it is completely silent on low settings.

But remember this: a system is never completely silent. You cant eliminate the noise from harddisks or FETs. So i think that searching for 0 DB on a cooling system is trowing away money, when you can get a 120 mm low-noise fan @ 5 volts (trust me, even silent if its where you sleep), and get better performance then with the zalman reserator, and still, you will not hear that.

What i mean is, the only great objective of getting reserator above other silent cooling solutions, is to say "I have Zero fans". It is not rational.

I am waiting also for the new Thermalright XP-120. If it is able to handle a modern CPU with a low-noise 120mm fan @ 5V, what else would you want?

[gone_fishin]

Originally Posted by spinky

robotech please prove the reserator cools better than stock so GF can stfu and stop trolling the thread kthxbye

Oh yeah, he's the dude that puts the naked chicks as a backdrop to the charts. Now I see someone has extrapolated a value of .08 C/W from his graphs for this contraption? What kind of fantasy land BS is that? Oh yeah, he's gonna easily prove a lot here.

[RoboTech]

Originally Posted by Groth

RoboTech, is your graph for the stock Reserator 1, or with the external 1048?

Sorry Groth, I didn't see your question until now. Yes, the graph is for the stock Reserator (two 12" hoses and no flow indicator). I just wanted to see how the Reserator responded to increased heat loads. By the time I got to 125 w I was tempted to add coffee grounds and brew a pot!

spinky,

I'm not trying to "prove" anything - that isn't the point of an open discussion...

[AngryAlpaca]

A 5200 RPM hard drive in an enclosure is damned close to silent. FETs? The power supply has always been my biggest noisemaker, I must say, but there is no decent PSU that is watercooled.

[pHaestus]

RoboTech some performance numbers with a typical heatsink and with badass wcing would be useful for comparison.

Not much space for good wcing to improve with a ~6C deltaT though

I wish Zalman would send me one of these; I'd put it out in the -50C winter and see how it did

[RoboTech]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

RoboTech some performance numbers with a typical heatsink and with badass wcing would be useful for comparison.

Not much space for good wcing to improve with a ~6C deltaT though

I wish Zalman would send me one of these; I'd put it out in the -50C winter and see how it did

The full review with a couple comparisons should be up this weekend.

Actually I was seeing 8.5 ~13 C dT (water over air), which is to be expected I guess with passive cooling.

Yeah, the Reserator would LOVE -50 C ambient temps...

Thanks pH,

[RoboTech]

The full review can be found here for anyone that is interested.

Zalman Reserator I Fan-less (Silent) Water-Cooling System

[bigben2k]

Nice work!

My "homies" managed to crack the flow indicator, still don't know how.

The only part that concerns me here is this new die simulator of yours: what made you go with 1000 mm^2 contact area? I mean, you know that the IHS spreads heat, but it doesn't spread it out that far, where your simulator does. That effectively decreases the heat density, and will cause performance variations based on the water block design i.e. if I run the same test on the same series of blocks, I'm going to get different results, and maybe even a different order.

Otherwise, I was grateful for the description of the "hollow tube": it seems to have been missed in some reviews. More details here than any other review I've seen.

[HammerSandwich]

Good review, Robotech.

All of the aluminum parts are anodized to help minimize corrosion.

Even the pump's mounting strap? I'm suspicious since it's not blue...

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by HammerSandwich

Good review, Robotech.



Even the pump's mounting strap? I'm suspicious since it's not blue...

Probably stainless with stainless screws. Would be a little concerned about the threads where the screws go into as in scratching the anodizing off.

[pHaestus]

I'm still trying to make sense of your numbers RoboTech. Looking at the CPU testing I see an 8C rise over water temperatures. Comparing that to the die simulator that would put the heat load at a little over 100W. I find that rather hard to believe at 2000MHz and 1.65V.

Why not monitor wb inlet and outlet temps and insulate the hoses? It's a good sanity check on watts...

[RoboTech]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

I'm still trying to make sense of your numbers RoboTech. Looking at the CPU testing I see an 8C rise over water temperatures. Comparing that to the die simulator that would put the heat load at a little over 100W. I find that rather hard to believe at 2000MHz and 1.65V.

Why not monitor wb inlet and outlet temps and insulate the hoses? It's a good sanity check on watts...

Two things:
1) Actual testing on the XP-2400 was done at 24 C ambient, while the Thermal die tests were conducted with an ambient temp of 21. (different locations)
2) CPU tests used a "realistic setup" including bulkhead fittings and flow indicator. The thermal die tests were conducted with two short 12" tubes and no fittings or flow indicator.

My purpose for mounting the Reserator on the thermal die sim was just to see how the Reserator responded to higher heat loads - primarily wanted to see how hot the water would get... nothing more (like new bench testing, and calculating C/W values).

If you take the 8C rise and substract 3C (diff in amb temps) that makes it 5C, which now correlates to ~ 63 watts - close to AMD's estimated max thermal output of 68+ watts, especially if you figure in secondary losses.

For now, I'm still using my current testing methodolgy so I can compare results to other systems tested on the same rig in the same way. If and when I can make the time (big IF right now) I may change over to a more analytical test loop as you suggest. And as you well know, trying to accurately measure the dT between water-in and water-out can be challenging!

[Les]

Originally Posted by RoboTech

....
And as you well know, trying to accurately measure the dT between water-in and water-out can be challenging!

Surely you must have mastered this challenge to make this statement

Originally Posted by RoboTech

. "The thermal die simulator dissipates 1 watt for every 12.5ºC rise in temperature over ambient. At 100 watts input power this means that 2.2 W is being lost to the surrounding air and that 97.8 W is actually being absorbed by the waterblock." This statement is based on data from thermal loss calibration curves I ran on the sim.

Other than Coherent's Fux-Block I know of no other way.

Would be interested to see data for other wbs using the the 1000sq mm die. It is nearer to Peltier conditions than other test-beds.

[RoboTech]

Originally Posted by bigben2k

The only part that concerns me here is this new die simulator of yours: what made you go with 1000 mm^2 contact area? I mean, you know that the IHS spreads heat, but it doesn't spread it out that far, where your simulator does. That effectively decreases the heat density, and will cause performance variations based on the water block design i.e. if I run the same test on the same series of blocks, I'm going to get different results, and maybe even a different order.

Hey Ben,

Sounds like we need to re-open the die size discussion and kick it around some more... I'm open to suggestions and justification for going with something other than 1,000 mm2. Let's take that discussion back over here instead of in this thread.

[pHaestus]

wait wait. Why would the change in ambient temperature affect the difference between CPU diode and water so dramatically? You think if you raised room temp 3C that CPU temperature would stay the same?

Oh I see now the Flukes are 0.1C res. Not gonna be helpful for estimating W from water it's true.

[RoboTech]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

wait wait. Why would the change in ambient temperature affect the difference between CPU diode and water so dramatically? You think if you raised room temp 3C that CPU temperature would stay the same?

Agreed -sorry, yes the dT between CPU or die and water won't change with small changes in ambient.

After thinking about this some more it struck me, YOU answered this question with your initial post and concern about the large die size generating apparently lower temps. So - the dT between the XP-2400 and water temp is higher (~8C) than the dT between the thermal die and water (4~5C) because the die has more than 10x the surface area than the XP core. For the same heat generation (say ~60 watts) the smaller XP core will run hotter than the much larger copper die.

[pHaestus]

Very good. Which was why I was saying such a large die was an unrealistic choice for wb testing and would generate low temperatures (that please mfgrs)

[talcum]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

I wish Zalman would send me one of these; I'd put it out in the -50C winter and see how it did

Yeah, but the 35 C summers would kill it for sure. Ain't continental climates grand?

[spinky]

it beats the aquarius? hilarious, guess we can name reserator best in the crap category.

[Got KarmA?]

I think you guys will enjoy this:

http://techreport.com/reviews/2004q2...r/index.x?pg=1

I've always been a fan of the tech report and their endorsement of the product does seem like good news.