Religion: Pros and Cons

[utabintarbo]

I told them not to get me started...

Please refer to the end of this thread for helpful background.

Originally posted by cybrsamurai
...

RELIGION: Im not religious, I think religion can be a good thing it can also be a very bad thing. The tensions in the middle east are (bad) the crusades (bad) murder of pesents under the rule of the japanese buddhist temples (bad) etc... Helping people cope with uncertainty of death (good), Helping people through tough times (good), helping draw a more unified community (can be good) etc..

Its hard to say whether the absence of religion would be good or bad. Religion breeds fanaticism and complacency wich are both bad however I would say it makes alot more people happy and fulfilled than fanatics.

While that is an accurate (but superficial) listing of religion qua religion, it fails to get at the fundamental flaw in every system based on faith: wishing won't make it so.

Faith is not a valid foundation of knowledge of reality. Faith can tell you nothing about the world, or how to live in it. Religions, both organized and otherwise, purport to have the ultimate truth, if you would only Believe! They count on the gullibility/ignorance/laziness of their audience. If I might paraphrase P. T. Barnum (I think?): One will never go broke betting on the gullibility of the public.

Would life on Earth without religion not come up with a basic code of ethical behavior similar to "Common Law". Given that most cultures have/had analogous codes given widely dissimilar religious systems, I would posit that such codes are "common-sensical" and readily apparent to anyone who wishes to think about it. And that is the key: expending the effort required to think.

Religions allow people to go through life without having to think about the great questions that face us: What is reality? How can we know it? How should we act? Religions have cookie-cutter answers to all of these questions, if only you'd take their word for it! Just imagine, you'll never have to worry about any of these issues again - just do as I tell you! Don't think - Believe! Religions are fundamentally anti-intellectual and anti-mind. Witness Islam of today, or Christianity of the Middle Ages, or Buddhism of any time period, and notice the inherent antipathy against intellectual discourse present in those systems. Then make up your own mind.

[/soapbox]

Bob

[bigben2k]

and for some reason, a lot of religions deny that there's any truth in Darwin's theory, which is based on facts and scientifically developped.

This goes back to the days of the Spanish inquisition. If you can't believe that the earth is flat, you'll be excommunicated and jailed.

Nice.

That's always been a sore point with me, and I was glad to hear the vatican issue a formal acknowledgement of guilt on that issue, but obviously, it's still got ways to go.

What I hate about the cookie-cutter aproach, is that it slows progress. If anyone's played Sid Meier's Civilization, then you know that Fanaticism is not something you want.

I've also noticed a lot of intolerance between different religions, and we can all see it only too well in the middle east.

There are a lot of good values that have been identified and categorized, that are pretty simple to follow: honesty, justice, fairness, truth, ... It shouldn't be too hard to come up with a list.

[utabintarbo]

Originally posted by bigben2k
...

This goes back to the days of the Spanish inquisition. If you can't believe that the earth is flat, you'll be excommunicated and jailed.

Not to mention tortured. In a most godly way, of course!

Originally posted by bigben2k
...

There are a lot of good values that have been identified and categorized, that are pretty simple to follow: honesty, justice, fairness, truth, ... It shouldn't be too hard to come up with a list.

And my point was that these could be derived/discovered without the "aid" of religion/deities. They were merely tools to allow the weak to subjugate the powerful and weaker alike. Even the chief must kowtow to the Witch Doctor, lest he bring down the wrath of the Four Winds against him!

Bob

[Alchemy]

Okay, board ate my post. I'll try to rewrite as much as I remember.

Originally posted by bigben2k
[b]and for some reason, a lot of religions deny that there's any truth in Darwin's theory, which is based on facts and scientifically developped.

Not a lot. Just one.

This goes back to the days of the Spanish inquisition. If you can't believe that the earth is flat, you'll be excommunicated and jailed.

The Spanish inquisition was late 15th century, the Papal Inquisition was around the 13th century.

At neither of these times was there a widespread belief in Europe that the earth was flat. The Church never, ever promoted the flat earth myth or punished people for not believing it. This is silly as saying people thought Columbus would sail off the edge of the earth - silly history taught by stupid teachers to schoolchildren who don't know any better.

You *might* be confusing this with Galileo, who *was* excommunicated and jailed for, among other things, promoting a heliocentric astronomical model.

The survivors of the Inquisition suffered the sort of tortures and mutilations that, if you get all your history from a sixth-grade book printed in Helvetica 14-point, would be glossed over or called "excommunicated and jailed."

That's always been a sore point with me, and I was glad to hear the vatican issue a formal acknowledgement of guilt on that issue, but obviously, it's still got ways to go.

If you've ever heard a papal apology, you would realize how stupid this is. Of *course* they didn't admit guilt. They apologized on behalf of the people who "acted in the mistaken belief what they were doing on behalf of the Church," or something like that. The Church is holy; the entity itself cannot admit to wrongdoing or it would not be perfect.

What I hate about the cookie-cutter aproach, is that it slows progress. If anyone's played Sid Meier's Civilization, then you know that Fanaticism is not something you want.

Is it common for people to learn socio-political models from video games?

I've also noticed a lot of intolerance between different religions, and we can all see it only too well in the middle east.

How astute.

Alchemy

[bigben2k]

?

[Rayman2k2]

well, for the record, i would like to separate muslim fundamentalists with muslim "thinkers" if you may.
the fundamentalists are the ones who blow themselves up.
the thinkers are the ones that realize blowing yourself up doesnt kill many people.

the fundamentalists believe that killing yourself in the act is making you a martyr
the thinkers realize that the only way to become a martyr is to be killed in the act, by the opposing party, while you defend your religon/country/etc.

the fundamentalists believe that they will go to heaven and recieve 80 virgins
the thinkers realize that the fundamentalists will go to hell, and even if they do recieve 80 virgins, the virgins will definately have sharp teeth

the fundamentalists kill themselves in the name of God
the thinkers pray in the name of God

the fundamentalists think that they are right
the thinkers are trying to defend themselves because the fundamentalists think that they are right

I am a thinker. I might not pray daily, but i do think. I think in the name of God. I think for a better cause. I think for whats right, and I shun what is wrong.

[lukasz70]

why religion? lol
marijuna is a much better topic

anyway, lets see, being catholic, what can i say about religion, hmm,

well

in the last 100 years, how many wars have been started because of religion?, pretty much all of them

honestly, if there were no religion (or US presidents like bush, just j/k lol), we would be alot closer to world peace by now.
think about it, a world with no suicide bombers or what bush calls them "suiciders", the conflict between afganistan and US would have never existed and 9/11 would have never happend, the entire thing with isreal and palestine and the event of ww2, and probably alot more that i missed

just for laughs

"Now, we talked to Joan Hanover. She and her husband, George, were visiting with us. They are near retirement — retiring — in the process of retiring, meaning they're very smart, active, capable people who are retirement age and are retiring." —George W. Bush, Alexandria, Va., Feb. 12, 2003

[utabintarbo]

Originally posted by Rayman2k2
well, for the record, i would like to separate muslim fundamentalists with muslim "thinkers" if you may.
the fundamentalists are the ones who blow themselves up.
the thinkers are the ones that realize blowing yourself up doesnt kill many people.

the fundamentalists believe that killing yourself in the act is making you a martyr
the thinkers realize that the only way to become a martyr is to be killed in the act, by the opposing party, while you defend your religon/country/etc.

the fundamentalists believe that they will go to heaven and recieve 80 virgins
the thinkers realize that the fundamentalists will go to hell, and even if they do recieve 80 virgins, the virgins will definately have sharp teeth

the fundamentalists kill themselves in the name of God
the thinkers pray in the name of God

the fundamentalists think that they are right
the thinkers are trying to defend themselves because the fundamentalists think that they are right

I am a thinker. I might not pray daily, but i do think. I think in the name of God. I think for a better cause. I think for whats right, and I shun what is wrong.

Please refer to first post in this thread, esp. second and fourth paragraphs.

For you see, there is no epistemological difference between you and the fundamentalists you decry, because the irrational "leap of faith" is assumed. On what basis (in God's name) can you refute the actions of the fundamentalists, or, more importantly, their basis. It is all interpretations of words put on paper by men who attempted to interpret the will of God by observing the interpretations of an alleged "prophet" who may or may-not have lived centuries ago. On this you are willing to base your ethical actions? The fundamentalists have the same right to interpret things their preferred way as you do! Your arguments against them are built on the same foundation of sand as theirs.
:shrug:

Bob

[airspirit]

I categorize most religious experiences as mass hypnosis.

Before you cry foul, let me explain: I was raised in a protestant household that was active in their church. I was steeped in it all my life. The more people were gathered, the more the "spirit" was felt ... or, at least, the more earnestly it is sought. The weepy prayer sessions and whatnot were more emotionally charged because of the people involved than any religious experience: in fact, I believe it was the emotional aspect of the ceremonies that invoke the religious feelings. I digress ....

Once I entered college I was introduced through a friend to a group of people. If there are any LDS people here you might as well just stop reading because I will severely offend you.

STOP HERE! YOU WILL NOT BE WARNED AGAIN!

Okay, with that said, I was introduced to the Mormon religion. As I began reading and studying on it I was bewildered by the absolute insanity of their claims, principles, and beliefs. Their tool to recruit new members is primarily fourfold:

1) Put out the image of a wholesome group. All in all, their lifestyle is attractive and stable. You don't see many of the problems that are found in other areas of society ... by design, but I'm jumping ahead again.

2) Surround you with people that repeat "the church is true" over and over and over ad infinitum.

3) Tell you that in order to know if their claims are true you must basically believe they are true.

4) Increase your investment in their group so it is hard to leave.

The third doesn't make sense, does it? In order to know something is true, you have to believe it is true ... and the more you believe it is true in your mind, the more it IS true ... at least to you. They basically set you on a course to brainwash yourself, and surround you with people that make the job easier. They try to involve you in church activities at every possible turn so you never have a chance to see reason. After enough time, you actually come to believe that you believe, and it's all downhill from there.

I mean, come on: I'm a pretty level-headed and rational person. It is hard to believe looking back that I actually believed that God is a deified man who lives on a glass ball called Kolob somewhere in the universe, he knocked up Mary so his spirit son (our spirit brother, along with the devil) could bleed for us (his death was an unfortunate happenstance) under an olive tree, and that we have to perform cribbed masonic rites in a stuffy building while wearing magic underwear or we won't be able to hang out with our wives in the afterlife where we will rule as gods while our wives punch out billions of spirit children for our own personal domain. Hey, but one of these days we'll get a chance to get molested by God through a veil and we'll have to know the secret password about having massive loins in order to get into Heaven ... assuming that some philandering con-man named Joseph Smith concurs with God's decision. Pay Lay Ale, eh?

Sounds pretty insane, huh? Well, once you convince yourself hard and long enough that something is true, it's hard to go back and question it. The more time you spend in a church or faith, the less likely you are going to question your beliefs. Really, if all the people around you believe it, and you've believed it so long, how can it be wrong? The desperate looks on their faces, that is because of a bad breakfast, not because they are doubting the same way you are, right? Right?

Even after my wife and I had conclusively proven that the Mormon church was a complete scam she still wanted to keep going. Why? Why continue to pay money to con-men and liars? Why continue to hang out with the deluded? Simply, she had so much of her life invested in that church that she didn't want to leave. She was afraid she would lose friends and such. SHE WAS WILLING TO PRETEND TO BELIEVE A LIE RATHER THAN STAND UP FOR HER BELIEFS. She had been told (and said) that "the church is true" so much that she never bothered to question it. The funny thing was that as we were demanding to be taken from the records of that church I talked to a few different people that still went there and found that they all knew it was a crock as well. They just kept going out of habit and convenience ... it was more a social club than a church. Anyone that had doubts was shunned and attacked. Anyone who spoke out against anyone in authority was attacked and the magical blessings and such that you were "endowed" with (I considered myself well endowed before joining this group, and I never noticed any difference afterwards, hehe) may be revoked. Boo fsckin hoo.

Once we escaped, I began to compare what happened there with other churches and other beliefs only to find that while the Mormon church was probably the worst in the mass hypnosis department, every other group I encountered was the same. There was always a few people that believed either because of mental disease ("God whispers to me and tells me to eat nachos") or because they desperately wanted to (I'm going to die soon and I want to think something is waiting for me), and the rest are there feeding off of the fervor of the few previously mentioned and convincing themselves that if those people believe, they have to be right ... right? Every last religion out there is based upon peer pressure on a massive scale and wishful thinking. Something sounds so nice, and the end payoff sounds so wonderful, and everything fits together so well with my world view that it HAS to be true regardless of anything that may prove it wrong.

The point of mental disconnect for these people is that wanting something to be true and believing something to be true does not make it true. Our argumentative nature pushes us to fight for what we believe even in the face of logic and facts. Think about it: if a 40 year old catholic was shown video evidence (go with me here, guys) that Jesus was really a pimp who drank too much wine and the disciples were his enforces who wandered the countryside beating money out of people do you think that he would believe it? It would prove that his whole life, his beliefs, and all the money he forked over to his church were based on a lie, and he would BLOCK OUT THE TRUTH to continue believing what he feels to be convenient.

If you could prove that it wasn't an angel on the mount with Mohammed, and that it was really a drunken shepherd who shared some hashish with him and told him a really easy way to score chicks and money, do you think anyone would listen?

If you could prove that Buddha was really just a nobleman who was looking for a way to make his subjects happy about being poor, do you think anyone would listen?

The problem is that every religious group on earth thinks that they have the one and only way to heaven/nirvana/whatever and that every other group is wrong. Well, I'm unwilling to believe that any "loving and caring God" would dump us on a rock knowing that 70-90% of us were going to hell or some such nonsense. It doesn't make sense, does it? And even if this God was just a wee bit sadistic, why the hell would he have done it in the first place? If I was God, I'd be surrounded with big-titted angels who did stuff a bit more wild than play a damn harp, if you know what I mean ... but again, that is just speculation.

Belief != Truth.

Having a religious debate is like beating your head against a brick wall. Even though nobody can prove their religion correct (oh, you know it is fact because of faith? that makes all the frickin' difference in the world!), and even though evidence can be laid out contradicting EVERY RELIGION ON EARTH, nobody will budge, and the reason for that is simply that religion is the largest case of mass hypnosis and delusion on earth, barring what the little green men do to us with anal probes.

[lukasz70]

k, im not trying to argue for religion right now,

but you do have to keep in mind that there are con artists out there that try to exploit people, even if its through different religions,

think of name brands like nike, adidas...and then think of all the fake ones, its kind of like that.


anyway, im off to get baked
maybe then will i be in a more discussion prone attitude lol

[Rayman2k2]

Originally posted by utabintarbo
Please refer to first post in this thread, esp. second and fourth paragraphs.

For you see, there is no epistemological difference between you and the fundamentalists you decry, because the irrational "leap of faith" is assumed. On what basis (in God's name) can you refute the actions of the fundamentalists, or, more importantly, their basis. It is all interpretations of words put on paper by men who attempted to interpret the will of God by observing the interpretations of an alleged "prophet" who may or may-not have lived centuries ago. On this you are willing to base your ethical actions? The fundamentalists have the same right to interpret things their preferred way as you do! Your arguments against them are built on the same foundation of sand as theirs.
:shrug:

Bob

first, his, the prophet's, body has been kept, it is in one of the domes in a Mosque in Saudi Arabia.

second, Gahndi once said that "The Prophet fought with his words, rather than his hands". Islam was built off of peace, and the only time war was needed was in self-defense.

I would go more in depth, but I have to study for AP exams...I'll post back when I have the time...

and im sorry for my rant, it's just that some people REALLY piss me off....and i need someone that'll listen....god damn...I want a girlfriend

[pokpok]

you can debate both so far(atheism & theism), the best is to be agnostic. ive finally come to believe that all religions are for self gain - go into a life better than the present one. all the rules, acts of morality and good are simply done for admittance into heaven (or nirvana.etc).

"in the last 100 years, how many wars have been started because of religion?, pretty much all of them "

how much is all? youve only mentioned a few. besides, anydifferences in thought will start a war. sure religion is a big cause but even if youve found a way to "remove" religion people will still fight. im sure you remember the once famous song "IMAGINE"

[pokpok]

Originally posted by Rayman2k2
first, his, the prophet's, body has been kept, it is in one of the domes in a Mosque in Saudi Arabia.

second, Gahndi once said that "The Prophet fought with his words, rather than his hands". Islam was built off of peace, and the only time war was needed was in self-defense.

I would go more in depth, but I have to study for AP exams...I'll post back when I have the time...

and im sorry for my rant, it's just that some people REALLY piss me off....and i need someone that'll listen....god damn...I want a girlfriend

youre in college and dont have a GF? seriously man step away from the PC....and go talk to some girls

[Yo-DUH_87]

I have come to the conclusion that some people are seriously misled. I am a christian, and while I am not perfect (and don't claim to be in any means), I believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and assended to heaven to prepare a place for us.

I do believe Buddha was a wise kind old guy, that he was helpful, wonderful, and that he died of indigestion (how ironic), and that I may as well pray to a wall than talk with him. If he didn't have the power to keep his food down, how will he help me?

Islam is a derivative of Abraham's illegitimate son, who was condemned, but promised a nation that would be a thorn in the side of the believers. Well, he got his promise, didn't he?

However, people believing that the earth "just came to be," that is bizarre. Since the "big bang" theory is the most believed in, but let me ask you this: where did the matter/antimatter come from to make the explosion (or if you don't think it was matter/antimatter, what was it and where did it come from)? How coincidental that matter would come together in such a way that an atmosphere could be formed, and life start struggling to live (hmm, what are the odds...). Also, how interesting that we have found no traces of the "small million year steps" it took to get humans from tadpoles (interesting)...

If you ask me, it is a lot more logical to believe in a God than it is to believe in evolution. (I'm taking this from a pessimist's point of view).

Going back to Mormonism, in the book or Mormon it says that if you lead a good life, but are not Mormon (and have never been Mormon), you still are going to a "lower tier" of heaven. Ok, I'm safe there.

Christianity has been morphed into so many different things that it is really sad. Yes, the Mormons claim to be Christians, but they are not. They worship a God who can't make up it's mind about stuff, and keeps changing it's mind to benefit his current political status (such as accepting blacks as not condemned to hell not too long ago). Jehovah's Witness, another example of Christianity turned into a cult...

I could go into a rant on how wrong it is to criticize our president, but I will only say that you have the right to your opinion, no matter how stupid it (or you) may be

[joemac]

??? What happened to computer cooling???
Although it is interesting to see how some feel about religion. Brain washing ? maybe in some cases, but we will all find out one day until then argue on. Remember to respect other thoughts even if they don’t agree with what you believe. I am curious- how many believe in what they believe because they have been taught using fear. Many confuse wanting respect with wanting to be feared. You learn to fear but earn respect just wonder for those who believe how they learned to believe or how you make other believe.

[psychofunk]

This is the dumbest ass shit I have ever heard. You are all saying that "us thinkers are right, be a free thinker and believe what we say" and you "non-thinking religious types are people who cannot think for themselves". Get a clue!

Faith is the presence of action without the presence of reason or proof. You make a change in you life and you follow the word of God because you have faith in that he will save your wretched soul because he loves and forgives.

BB2K, I had respect for you before this:shrug: ! Darwin? **** the monkey's or one celled amoeba or whatever you think came first. Where did that come from? How about this, make me a tree from thin air!

As for fanatics, well all I can say is pick up your bible and read what it says. There is nothing there about kill others or die for you religion. People, much like yourselves, bend and twist the meaning of the bible to suit there own needs.

"Common-sensical" morals? Are you serious? You obviously have no children nor do you remember you childhood. Lieing, cheating, hitting and taunting sound familiar. No? How about that child who is not even old enough to speak yet who has cookies all over his face and hands "did you eat any cookies?" and what is his answer *nods head no innocently*.

No difference if there was no religion? Yeah right and geeks would rule the world then right? World peace? This would be a place just like your friend darwin describes, a place where the strongest survives and you geeks get trampled, again!

If it was'nt for religion there are millions of us that would still be robbing, stealing, swindling, shooting and killing people like you, just to (what we believed to be living) survive.

No matter what you think or how you feel I know the difference that God has made in my life. And following the path is the most difficult task that any person could ever undertake because it requires action against all that we know and desire. I don't care to change your opinions, please don't! But don't drag others down with you!

Every Knee Shall Bow to me, and every tongue shall confess
Romans 14:11

[Alchemy]

This entire thread is fundamentally absurd - just a place for non-Christians to bash Christians, and for the Christians to retaliate.

All the posts here against religion have, so far, been unfocused rhetoric and/or completely false information - it's the same type of crap any fanatical religious figure would spout. The opinions are different, but the ugliness and bad taste are the same.

Originally posted by Yo-DUH_87
If you ask me, it is a lot more logical to believe in a God than it is to believe in evolution. (I'm taking this from a pessimist's point of view).

Sigh. What do Americans have against biologists that they need to bandy this about all the time? I don't give a damn what you people think about quantum mechanics - I use it, I know it works. Why do you think biologists would give a damn what the unwashed masses think about the various offshoots of natural selection theory, especially when few if any of them even understand it?

And more importantly, why does the public not believe biologists when they tell you that natural selection is what happens? Even if natural selection were not an inherently obvious process (it is), why would you think the experts are wrong and the people who know nothing are right? Do you assume you know more about law than lawyers? More about flying than pilots? More about art than artists? What is it that makes people believe they carry any credibility in matters they have little or no education, experience, or training in?

Don't draw scientists into religious debates. Most of us are well above it. A lot of us just don't care anymore - it gets very, very tiring.

Alchemy

[Rayman2k2]

Originally posted by pokpok
youre in college and dont have a GF? seriously man step away from the PC....and go talk to some girls

high school....and i did...but she broke up with me

[bigben2k]

Sorry psychofunk, but the way I see it, there's a gap between the different religions, and human nature.

Darwin's idea is a theory, which means that it's a possible, reasonable explanation of a situation. It's human nature to try to rationalize things. I don't know if it's true, but what I know is that it makes sense, and I have great respect for things that make sense.

In a similar situation, we can all admire Hitler for rebuilding Germany to the economic super power that it became, while hating what he eventually did with it. One doesn't exclude the other.

[lukasz70]

People, ..., bend and twist the meaning of the bible to suit there own needs.

thats not always a bad thing
part of the rastafarian religion is to smoke weed, they actually have quotes on some websites from the bible that prooves that they are allowed to smoke it

[airspirit]

Who said that anyone here is purposefully bashing religion as a whole? Personally I think it is a crock, but does that make me want to bash it? Does that mean it has no merits? Absolutely not!

I have seen the comfort that religion can give during troubled times. It doesn't really matter what religion, even if it is a cult centered around cow-pie sculptures, it typically gives some measure of comfort. After all, most of the terror based religions have been removed from circulation within the last few hundred years, and now the main four are all centered around more of a comforting theme. When my mother was dying from cancer it was a great comfort to believe that things would get better for her. I'm happy that she had that ... but no amount of wishing can make fiction into fact.

What religion is based on is what psychofunk said: "Faith is the presence of action without the presence of reason or proof." Unfortunately, faith doesn't make fiction into fact regardless of what you believe. Please understand, I'm not trying to bash your beliefs or whatnot, and I'm happy that you found something to cling to as long as you're happy with it. But really, when all the chips are on the table and the last cards are turned over, faith really comes down to one thing: you want something to be true so much that you will blot out reason and proof to believe in something that contradicts both.

Every religious person should sit down and really think at least once in their life: why do I believe what I believe? Is it because so many others believe it that it has to be true (peer pressure)? Is it because you've believed so long that it has to be true, because if it wasn't you would have saw through it (time investment)? Is it because you want so desperately to believe that it is true (usually for selfish reasons like going to heaven, being with loved ones in an afterlife, healing through prayer, etc) that you force yourself to believe? Is it because the whole thing just sounds good? Is it because you need a reason why you should be a good individual (meaning of life considerations)? Is it a combination of these things?

Even though most everyone falls into one of those categories, the underlying reason typically comes out to this:

"I WANT to believe it is true, so I WILL believe it is true."

Regardless of the motivation behind it, faith really boils down to wishful thinking. Well, I guess I shouldn't categorize things so completely ... I suppose there really are people out there that believe that all of the scientific evidence really is the devil trying to trick us and that the earth (which was created in seven days, not the millions and billions of years indicated by scientific proof) has only existed for 6-10,000 years. The people that believe such crazyness in the face of fact are just a few more steps gone down the road of fanaticism, though their belief is founded on the same wishful thinking as others ... they just wish harder.

Oh, and before someone comes on here saying that "Evolution is just a theory, not a fact" like a fscking moron (I have no sympathy for this kind of lunacy, sorry!), let me give you another example: gravitational theory (you are being held down, right?). A theory is a set of guidelines and rules that a system will adhere to. Generally speaking, a theory is something that is generally believed and can be proven through experimentation (which evolution can be). Why is it not a law? Laws are more specific in nature. They typically come in the form of "if x then y" such as "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." Laws that encompass a broader scope are generally titled theories, such as relativity, gravity, evolution, atomic behavior, etc.

And before you say there is no proof of evolution, crack open an encyclopedia. Go down to your library and look at some archaeology books. National Geographic in particular has some progression charts of critters over a couple of million years that make wild changes, including human beings.

Really, the Darwin is dumb cos I said so argument gets old. Yeah, there have been further refinements of his idea since, but nothing ... NOTHING ... has refuted them in the slightest bit AT ALL except for religious belief.

What it comes down to is that once you decide what your wishful thinking will be focused on, any contradictory information is thrown out and refuted by either more wishful thinking or faith (oops ... same thing). Let me ask you this: if God came down to you right now and said that your faith was based on a lie, would you change your beliefs? Really, would you? Or would you still cling to your previous beliefs based on faith? What would it take for you to question what you believe?

For most faiths, the act of questioning your faith is the worst thing you can do. The reason for this is for peer reinforcement: if nobody can question their faith without being persecuted, then nobody will do it ... at least publicly. This causes less people to be affected, and the status quo can be kept. Religious organizations are really an interesting phenomenon when looked at from a psychological point of view, though it makes me a little sad to see how many people are locked in because they aren't allowed to truly try to discover what they really believe and what they really don't.

[bigben2k]

Airspirit: if you want to defy the conventional understanding of the differences between "law" and "theory", you'll find yourself very much on your own.

It isn't difficult to find evidence that supports Darwin's theory, but that's the limit of it.

There are many theories about how the universe started, and you'll find that a lot of the existing evidence actually supports more than one theory!

The thing is, it's just a theory, and it's not a law because it can't be irrefutably proven. In Darwin's case, it's simply generally accepted, for lack of anything better. Who knows, maybe Darwin was off by a bit, maybe he wasn't detailed enough, maybe he missed something...

[utabintarbo]

Originally posted by pokpok
you can debate both so far(atheism & theism), the best is to be agnostic.

...

From m-w.com:
agnostic: broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

This is the definition of a person who is afraid to take a stand. Such intellectual cowardice gets one nowhere. Heed the words of Mr. Miyagi!

Bob

[utabintarbo]

Originally posted by Alchemy
This entire thread is fundamentally absurd - just a place for non-Christians to bash Christians, and for the Christians to retaliate.

All the posts here against religion have, so far, been unfocused rhetoric and/or completely false information - it's the same type of crap any fanatical religious figure would spout. The opinions are different, but the ugliness and bad taste are the same.

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Alchemy

Well, how about an example of the "completely false information". Without such, your charge is baseless.

I would say that the one fact that I have brought forth is that faith is not a valid mechanism for achieving knowledge of reality ("Wishing won't make it so"). Do you wish to debate that?

All else is merely the opinion of one who has gone through many years of introspection, study, and observation of his fellow man. And I will gladly defend my position, if you're up for it!

Bob

[utabintarbo]

Originally posted by psychofunk
This is the dumbest ass shit I have ever heard. You are all saying that "us thinkers are right, be a free thinker and believe what we say" and you "non-thinking religious types are people who cannot think for themselves". Get a clue!

I daresay the last line of this post is evidence of that...

Originally posted by psychofunk
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Faith is the presence of action without the presence of reason or proof. ...

You make my point! Thank You!

Originally posted by psychofunk
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"Common-sensical" morals? Are you serious? You obviously have no children nor do you remember you childhood. Lieing, cheating, hitting and taunting sound familiar. No? How about that child who is not even old enough to speak yet who has cookies all over his face and hands "did you eat any cookies?" and what is his answer *nods head no innocently*.
...

So, you are implying that men/women can never progress beyond the intellectual or moral level of children without the "help" of religion? Have you always held such a view?

I cannot seem to summon up this level of self-loathing. I don't understand it. :shrug:

Originally posted by psychofunk
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No difference if there was no religion? Yeah right and geeks would rule the world then right? World peace? This would be a place just like your friend darwin describes, a place where the strongest survives and you geeks get trampled, again!
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Geeks DO rule the world (Bill Gates comes to mind)!

Originally posted by psychofunk
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If it was'nt for religion there are millions of us that would still be robbing, stealing, swindling, shooting and killing people like you, just to (what we believed to be living) survive.
...

Well, that might apply to you! It does not apply to me.

Please don't paint the whole of the human race with the broad brush of irrationality. It smacks of arrogance.

Originally posted by psychofunk
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No matter what you think or how you feel I know the difference that God has made in my life. And following the path is the most difficult task that any person could ever undertake because it requires action against all that we know and desire. I don't care to change your opinions, please don't! But don't drag others down with you!

Every Knee Shall Bow to me, and every tongue shall confess
Romans 14:11

Well, I'm happy for you. My problem lies in the "action against all that we know" part, for obvious reasons.

And, of course, I am of the opinion that it is your assertions that are dragging men down. I do not wish to be subjugated to an alleged entity whose existence is outside of existence (?). I don't get that, either.

Have a Nice Day!
Bob