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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums.

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Unread 04-13-2002, 07:10 PM   #26
Jim
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jessfm

We "as in me & a guy called Awol " are OCPC.

Just a UK based manufacturer of Cooling products - so no danger to DD

if not supposed to link - pls email me to remove.
www.OverclockedPC.co.uk

8.5mm is thicker then it looks in pics - very misleading. Would have expected it to be thick enough TBH.
Are the blocks cast then or machined ?>
I think this block was cast and then machined to dimensions. The bottom is nice and flat, smooth maybe to 600 grit. I no longer believe in lapping to 1500 or 2000. FLAT and to 600 is good. I would still lap any block I get to insure it is flat.
Thanks for info one OCPC.
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Unread 04-13-2002, 07:26 PM   #27
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Hmmm...The leaked info out of Dangerden in this forum expressed that the maze3 took a real long time to machine. Anyone ever see machining that looked like the block in Jim's first photo? Anyway, this point has already been made and Danger Den assured Brad that this thing was milled:

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...5&pagenumber=2

Doesn't look like it though.
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Unread 04-13-2002, 07:27 PM   #28
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as far as the gap is concerned, that shouldnt even be a problem as long as its got a good seal. also, you do know that DDen sells replacement tops and o-rings right?
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Unread 04-13-2002, 07:27 PM   #29
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Yeah cheers for the info too.
We still young - and don't want to make any mistakes. So more help feed back does help us to create a better product.

Honestly we make little money form this - and it eats all my time up for playing about with hardware.

Im not sure about the cast issue - I would have thought that cast is not as pure = higher thermal resistance??.


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Mylar , now thats another expensive substance


I spent alot of time talking with plastic manufacturers , alot just wanted to sell me something - anything they had TBH. But I found 2 that advised me on the priducts that are available , plus the benefits & drawbacks , not just what they sold/stocked.

But we are still only small - so redesign of our components is still fairly easy for us.

look forwards to some comparison testing between a maze2 and maze3 though.
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Unread 04-13-2002, 07:37 PM   #30
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Default Just call me crazy - but...

Jim - I could see the crack in the first pic too Thanks again for the pics!

My 0.05 worth - that really is too thin of a wall at the screw head IMO. Your idea of extended the top past the side of the block would help. Now this is just me - but they could also simply not countersink the screw head, as in this case I don't see any real issues that would be created. The other comment regarding what I see is the way the side appears in those pics, it's irregular - almost looks like it was cleaved (or maybe milled incorrectly), and then not stress relieved to reduce the propensity to crack.

Other comment deals with the m/b mounting holes - if it twas I, I would open the holes in the top up and use a shouldered sleeve so that you were applying the mounting pressure directly on the (flat, metal) top of the block - to prevent compression on the top, possible gouging of the top, and provide a uniform, set, controllable (precise) height for the mounting force to insure level, uniform pressure on the core. (the top shoulder of the sleeve would become the spring seat).


Oh, one thing too I noticed in your first pic Jim - and it may be an artifact of the lighting and pic resolution - but it looks almost like the end of the central "rib" is chipped out at its base. (??)

Jessm - sorry m8, didn't mean make the entire block out of mylar - just the use of mylar film to address the issue of resistance to solvents (depending on where the issue was). And yes - it tis hard to get good info from salesmen, lol. To get past the sales people and get reliable info, raise detailed technical concerns and get directly to their applications engineering people
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Unread 04-13-2002, 08:05 PM   #31
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yeah, my pic seems to be a better block than the production block, if I get a maze3, I want a copper top thats soldered on. End of story.

lets see what Fix has to say about this..
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Unread 04-13-2002, 08:58 PM   #32
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seems to me that the size of the screw heads are whats causing the problem. the head is so small that it is probably expanding the lexan a bit... if they would simply use bigger heads it would probably fix the problem. (and they would then need to bring the screws in more for edge clearance)

i have a Maze3 on order and it hasnt shipped yet. i also ordered an extra top.

this is my plan:

i will bore out JUST the counter sunk hole, drop a washer in there, then put the screw through the washer. all of the pressure will then be spread out over a larger area and there shouldnt be any cracking!

sure the washer will have some overhang on the edge... but a dremel can fix that

what do ya guys think?
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Unread 04-13-2002, 09:11 PM   #33
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i'd much rather have a bolt on aluminum top or a soldered on copper top.
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Unread 04-13-2002, 09:14 PM   #34
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yea the metal top would be the best for functionality.. but not for looks =)

looks is the ONLY reason i ordered this block.. otherwise i would just hang onto my maze2
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Unread 04-13-2002, 09:16 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by DigitalChaos
seems to me that the size of the screw heads are whats causing the problem. the head is so small that it is probably expanding the lexan a bit... if they would simply use bigger heads it would probably fix the problem. (and they would then need to bring the screws in more for edge clearance)

i have a Maze3 on order and it hasnt shipped yet. i also ordered an extra top.

this is my plan:

i will bore out JUST the counter sunk hole, drop a washer in there, then put the screw through the washer. all of the pressure will then be spread out over a larger area and there shouldnt be any cracking!

sure the washer will have some overhang on the edge... but a dremel can fix that

what do ya guys think?
That should work. But maybe Dangerden can just move the bore in on the block a little, change the screws, and save everyone alot of hastle .
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Unread 04-13-2002, 09:45 PM   #36
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I'm just gonna do a big copy and paste here, DDen seems to be clearing everything up. If your block was shipping on the 6th or later it will be fine, and if earlier it may have a small issue, but they will replace them.
*edit* read from the bottom *edit*


------------------------------------------------

Yep…the counter sunk tops went out on the 4th and 5th. The rest were changed. There isn’t any risk to the countersunk bolts. But if they do crack we will replace them…



Best Regards,


Jeremy Burnett

jeremy@dangerden.com

www.dangerden.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Brad [mailto:otama@ihug.co.nz]
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 6:31 PM
To: Jeremy - Danger Den
Subject: Re: MAZE3 Info



Jeremy, is it ok if we post this email?



Brad

----- Original Message -----

From: Jeremy - Danger Den

To: 'Kevin Hanson'

Cc: Joe@procooling.com ; UnaClocker@procooling.com ; Brad@procooling.com

Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 1:16 PM

Subject: MAZE3 Info



Kevin,



Jeremy here at the Den...



You know we lurk the forums and don't normally post...but I noticed this:

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...3&pagenumber=1



I know there are some questions about the top of the MAZE3. We have now gone to a pan head type bolt (low profile) getting away from the counter sunk hole. The top is 3/8" thick and we haven't had any evidence leaking due to warping. If someone were to have a crack due to the countersink, we encourage them to contact us so we can make everything right (send them a new top and bolts). There hasn't been any other evidence of cracking. A lot of work was done in the development phase but during the first production run...there was more to learn.



The copper base is machined from copper stock...not cast. There shouldn't be a gap between the top and base (at the most a piece of paper may be slipped in) but if there is a significant gap we should be contacted to make it right.



Again we do want to satisfy everyone (is it possible? and if they have any issue with their block to let us know and we will make it right...



Best Regards,



Jeremy Burnett

jeremy@dangerden.com

www.dangerden.com





Best Regards,


Jeremy Burnett

jeremy@dangerden.com

www.dangerden.com
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Last edited by Brad; 04-13-2002 at 09:53 PM.
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Unread 04-13-2002, 09:52 PM   #37
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I have talked wtih Dennis at length, and the block is machined, and then sandblasted.
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Unread 04-13-2002, 10:00 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joe
I have talked wtih Dennis at length, and the block is machined, and then sandblasted.
best way
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Unread 04-13-2002, 10:06 PM   #39
WireX
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Default Hmm, maybe you guys already caught this but....

look at the pic I made, compiled from the "sample" pic, and the real pic.



look, interesting how theirs is different on one of the lil turbulance things (note, this could be because they changed the milling settings, or just a fluke)

-WireX
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Unread 04-13-2002, 10:13 PM   #40
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yup, DD just told me that they are no longer countersinking the bolts.. and are using low profile. sounds like they truely care about quality =)

WireX- i noticed that too, but it seems to be a fluke, it MAY be an air pocket in the copper, so what you are seeing MAY be a bit, not a rise. but there is no fake =)
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Unread 04-13-2002, 10:19 PM   #41
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Jeremy sent that e-mail which Brad posted in order to clear things up, Jim. Please contact him with your problem info to resolve things and get a new block. Also, regarding problems with the top cracking, I had a lot of OCWC lexan topped blocks in my day. While most of them sucked and had problems like nobody's business, the top cracking was never one of them.
-Kev
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Unread 04-13-2002, 10:28 PM   #42
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Well it looks like they've made every possible attempt to design a block using smart technology. We've all seen the block's cool design to create turbulence, but with sandblasting they've significantly increased both surface area within the block, and also turbulence. Commendable... Now I'd like to see the numbers.
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Unread 04-13-2002, 11:20 PM   #43
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DD's mistake was countersinking the cover screws... they should have just used longer screws and left em exposed on top.

Even better still would be to have a rectangular metal bezel on TOP, with the plastic cover sandwiched in between the main block and the bezel, which would spread the clamping force over the entire outer periphery of the cover and avoid cracking.

The bezel could be made as a flat stamping with an oval punched out of the middle to expose the view of the inside, and appropriate holes drilled.

If they wanted to pimp it up a bit, make the bezel outta aluminum and anodize it some bright color... which would also serve to harden it and make it more rigid.
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Unread 04-14-2002, 12:43 AM   #44
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well it's good to know that DD stands behind their products
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Unread 04-14-2002, 03:42 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by krp
DD's mistake was countersinking the cover screws... they should have just used longer screws and left em exposed on top.
well they fixed this pretty much immediately as stated in the email.


Quote:
Originally posted by krp

Even better still would be to have a rectangular metal bezel on TOP, with the plastic cover sandwiched in between the main block and the bezel, which would spread the clamping force over the entire outer periphery of the cover and avoid cracking.

The bezel could be made as a flat stamping with an oval punched out of the middle to expose the view of the inside, and appropriate holes drilled.

If they wanted to pimp it up a bit, make the bezel outta aluminum and anodize it some bright color... which would also serve to harden it and make it more rigid.
thats a pretty cool idea. i like it
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Unread 04-14-2002, 09:18 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cyco-Dude
as far as the gap is concerned, that shouldnt even be a problem as long as its got a good seal. also, you do know that DDen sells replacement tops and o-rings right?
Cyco-Dude-
Yes I know they sell replacement tops, didn't think I would need one 24 hours after I received the component!

I thought of another way this top could be improved was to eliminate the counter sinking of the (4) screw holes and adding a tiny washer with a substitution of round head machine screws (I am not sure if this block is tapped or not, didn't think to examine the screws when I removed them). Thus the bearing surface would be increased and the chance of fracturing out the sides would be significantly reduced. The top could also be more solidly secured without reservations. Not as pretty, but function comes before beauty.



Jim
KRP-
You posted this idea I just pointed out above here, (oops) I didn't read your post until I had mine posted only after reading Cyco-Dude's response, you thought of it first and the credit belongs to you buddy!

I think this idea would solve the problem without having to change the top, and it eliminates four additional hole cuts. (unless they are using a counter boring one piece drill bit?)
Jim

Last edited by Jim; 04-14-2002 at 09:24 AM.
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Unread 04-14-2002, 09:38 AM   #47
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Default Re: Just call me crazy - but...

Quote:
Originally posted by EMC2


Oh, one thing too I noticed in your first pic Jim - and it may be an artifact of the lighting and pic resolution - but it looks almost like the end of the central "rib" is chipped out at its base. (??)

EMC2-
You are correct. The center is chipped. I will post another snap after breakfast.

Now I see you also suggested to eliminate the countersink so hats off to EMC2 as well.

Would anyone believe me if I said I thought of this last night at dinner but didn't get to post until this morning!

Also my compliments to Danger Den (not sure I know who mills these) for being able to MILL this piece. Hell of an undertaking.

I am not trying to be a BIG PITA here I feel it is good for all to have this issue exposed. A simple adjustment early on could save some CPU's and down time and data loss. Heck I use my machine to run our family business.

Jim
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Unread 04-14-2002, 11:24 AM   #48
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I have a question, with regards to the heat expansion and contraction differences between the clear top, the fittings and the block itself. I am at the moment busy re-building a Chip-Chiller for a customer, and he said he had a poly-block, that he wanted to use, he might want to go the Maze-3 way, and asked me if I would recommend such a move...

the Chip-chiller can sustain 0c liquid on full load and might even go down to -10 , depending on ambient and load conditions....

this means that the block will see at most a 35degree delta from where is was assembled, (+25c) to where it is in opperation....

how brittle will the top be at cuch a temp..... I have made one see-through block, for show-case perposes only, and I refuse to use it in conditions like I just discribed

Can I recommend the Maze, or any see-through for that matter, to be used in conjunction with what I'm building?
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Unread 04-14-2002, 11:39 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by #Rotor
I have a question, with regards to the heat expansion and contraction differences between the clear top, the fittings and the block itself. I am at the moment busy re-building a Chip-Chiller for a customer, and he said he had a poly-block, that he wanted to use, he might want to go the Maze-3 way, and asked me if I would recommend such a move...

the Chip-chiller can sustain 0c liquid on full load and might even go down to -10 , depending on ambient and load conditions....

this means that the block will see at most a 35degree delta from where is was assembled, (+25c) to where it is in opperation....

how brittle will the top be at cuch a temp..... I have made one see-through block, for show-case perposes only, and I refuse to use it in conditions like I just discribed

Can I recommend the Maze, or any see-through for that matter, to be used in conjunction with what I'm building?
hey Rotor , not seen the Uber clocking king of liquid for a long time - how are we ? ( old school HWC )
Anyway
Sadly my tests are incomplete with a neptune block and a TEC.
BUT this is still a different problem to what your customer faces.
personaly - I would not like to Block temps as low as this - I think the main problems would be the Type of material/specification the sealinant/ 'O'ring.
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Unread 04-14-2002, 11:51 AM   #50
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doing good here, and I've been busy too... how are you doing?
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