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11-18-2002, 01:09 PM
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#1 |
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Thermophile
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: France
Posts: 1,221
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NForce2 / KT400 questions
After throwing heaps of cash into watercooling and SCSI drives, i'll move to a new mobo.
I'll stick to an AMD setup - better perf/price ratio IMHO. My choices are the following: NForce2: Asus A7N8X, Epox (???) KT400: Asus A7V8X, Epox (...?) I see different brands but all have these restrictions on RAM: - 3 PC2100 - or 2 PC2700 - or 1 PC3200 My first question is, how can we get the benefits of "twin-channel DDR" featured on the NForce2, if we can only put 1 PC3200 RAM stick ? Now whats better, Twin PC2700 + NForce2 or Single PC3200 + KT400 ? With NForce2 can I put, say, a XP1700+ and overclock its FSB @ 400 instead of 266 ??? (tuning down the multiplier if needed...) Can i do the same with a KT400 ? Lastly, i do not need any fancy IDE interface (i'm all SCSI), no RAID, no onboard ethernet (got an excellent one already), no onboard sound, no firewire. Which mobo will get me the best bang for the buck ? I've been partial to Asus for maybe 8 years but i'm open to change. MSI KT4 Ultra ? Epox (which one?) ? Leadtek ? Gigabyte ? (edit) i plan to do this in Jan. or Feb. 2003 |
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11-18-2002, 01:28 PM
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#2 |
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Cooling Savant
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: on da case
Posts: 933
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well, if all the added componentry of the Nforce doesn't tilt you over, then only the marginal performance boost over kt400 can make the decision.
don't know what i would take really. as much as what everyone holds against via for not beings stable nor a good performer. i have always liked via products. they do'nt seem to be anymore/less stable than what SIS or intel have been offering for amd/p3/p4. i like the way via drivers can be updated as opposed to the intel motherboard application accelerators (huge pain). sis doesn't allow alot of fiddling with drivers. i also like via for the rogues they are. intel must have really hated them for bringing out a dual p3 chipset, i hope they can do the same for amd or p4, now that would be a blast. i mean, honestly imagine 1.5 yrs ago, dual P3 ecs board for about 85€. anyway, as i said, the nforce might seem the better, me personally would still stick to via. edit: i can strongly recommend epox. top tech support. no bullshit prices/accessories on motherboards, performance is up there with the best for 15-20% less than an asus |
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11-18-2002, 01:42 PM
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#3 |
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Join Date: May 2002
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I'm really stuck too. I'm looking at the same mobos.
I have to stay away from the KT400, as there's no 1/6 divider for the PCI, and that's just no good for me. Don't even bother looking for one, it's a feature that isn't available because of a chipset limitation. The NForce2 chipset has independantly set clocks, so it's not an issue. There will be a KT400A coming out, and that's the big question on the market right now: will it match/beat the Nforce2? If you're in a hurry, I'd go with the NForce2, either from Asus or Epox (see my sig). |
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11-18-2002, 02:46 PM
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#4 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Moscow, ID
Posts: 1,986
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YOU ARE ALL WRONG!!!
There is a misconception among, well, everyone that the Nforce2 boards have PCI/AGP locks. THIS IS NOT THE CASE!!! The only board that has a confirmed PCI lock (by an end user) is the Asus board. The Epox has been confirmed by Epox representatives to have NO PCI LOCK, only AGP locking. There is no confirmation that the Epox board has a 1/6 divider, either. The only reason to even believe the Asus board has PCI lock is because an end user used a PCI Geiger on it and the PCI bus stayed at 33.34 regardless of speed. THIS IS NOT THE CASE WITH ALL OTHER NFORCE2 BOARDS TESTED. As far as the KT400 boards go, there is no 1/6 divider. Some may have the option in the BIOS, but the 1/6 will either function as a 1/5, or the machine will not boot. This is not something that can be fixed by a BIOS update, it is a limitation to the KT400 chipset that can not be fixed, hence the coming KT400a chipset next year. Needless to say, the KT400a will NOT beat the NForce2 because of the Hyperthreading/Dual DDR combo. When two identical sticks of DDR are used in the DIMM1 and DIMM3 slots, the memory bandwidth doubles and latency goes down. The KT400a will not be able to touch this. With all that said, the problem with the Asus board is the narrow voltage options in the BIOS. Volt mods will be required. Word. (I've been following this closely since I will be purchasing a mobo/CPU combo verey shortly)
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11-18-2002, 02:51 PM
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#5 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
Join Date: Jul 2002
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On a less harsh post, the option to have independant clocks is left to the manufacturer. Many have chose to only allow you to lock the AGP since it saves money in production costs, while the PCI is still run on the old divider system.
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11-18-2002, 03:26 PM
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#6 |
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Actually, the Asus board has a jumper, adding 0.2 VCore, bumping the BIOS settings by that much.
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11-18-2002, 03:47 PM
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#7 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Ooh, now that is good news to hear.
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11-18-2002, 04:32 PM
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#8 |
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Hold on... I can't confirm it, yet.
What I can confirm right now is that the max clock for the Asus is 211, where the Leadtek and Chaintech will only go to 200. That's my pet peeve, as I was hoping to be able to take it up to 233. Still searching... |
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11-18-2002, 04:58 PM
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#9 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
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They are saying that this will be revised in a BIOS update. I wouldn't worry about FSB levels, since I think the NF2 platform is limited to 333 Mhz (666 DDR ... EVIL!!!). I heard abou the overvolt jumper elsewhere, but I can't find anyone to confirm it. I'm going to wait until next month to wait for all the chips to fall and the propaganda to be seperated from reality. There is a ton of bullsh!t flying, just like when the KT400s came out, and the biggest piece of crap is the PCI locking business. As I said, Asus is the only option for us OC crazies so far, regardless of what any manufacturer says about their boards. The only way I'd trust one of the others is to get PC Geiger confirmation that the lock works. Notice that no other manufacturer is saying anything regarding this issue, though they know it is an important one to us? I don't mind the Volt limitations on the Asus as I'm not afraid to volt mod. All I care about is the PCI lock. That is the sole reason I am looking at this board, though the dual DDR is also kinda sexy.
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11-18-2002, 05:05 PM
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#10 | |
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Join Date: May 2002
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Quote:
333 is 166 doubled. That's the limitation you're really talking about. What I'm saying is that the max FSB you can set is 200 (that's DDR 400). DDR 422 with max FSB at 211. Crucial XMS 3500 is DDR 433. |
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11-18-2002, 05:42 PM
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#11 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
Join Date: Jul 2002
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I'm dead serious, and I didn't make a mistake. Though nobody is going to get 333 Mhz/DDR666, it is the top-end limitation of the NForce2 platform. Think about it: if 166 Mhz/DDR333 was the top-end, we wouldn't even be talking about this at all. What I'm saying is that all of the boards are capable of that high of a FSB (at least in theory), as long as the BIOS is programmed to allow adjustments that high.
I wouldn't worry about being limited to 211 or 217 or 233 at this point, since all it takes is a BIOS update to push that through the roof. Could you imagine 333 FSB? Jeezus Pleezus ... and you know some crazy bastard is going to do a complete system LN2 cooling to try to do it just to say they did it first.
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11-18-2002, 05:48 PM
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#12 |
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Responsible for 2%
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Join Date: May 2002
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Argh!
no...no...no... FSB is the board frequency times 2. Max FSB that can be set on these boards is 400, and that's with a frequency setting of 200 MHz. FSB at 333 means a system clock of 166, doubled. The system clock also sets the memory speed. The memory carries data in and out at the rise and fall of the clock signal, hence the name DDR (Double Data Rate). A system freq of 200 MHz is DDR 400. The CPU socket wasn't designed to handle more than a 200 MHz frequency anyways! |
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11-18-2002, 06:02 PM
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#13 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Um, let me put it this way for you, Ben: The maximum setting that you can select in the BIOS, if the BIOS is expanded to maximum capacity of the NF2 platform is 333. This is the setting for DDR666. Stop beating your head against the wall on this one as it has been released from different vendors such as Asus, Epox, and Abit when explaining that: while you can only select up to 211/217/233/### NOW in the BIOS, we will be giving a BIOS update that will allow you to go up to (umpty-ump). The max setting on the NF2 is 333. This is not DDR333, because that would be ghey and pointless. This is DDR666 which is impossible, but will be something for crazy OC guys to strive for.
Can you get that? Not DDR333, but DDR666. Not selecting 166 in BIOS, but 333. There is a difference. Can you feel me? We all know it is impossible, but it was designed as such into the chipset. I really don't want to argue this anymore. Believe what you will. I'm just repeating facts.
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11-18-2002, 06:05 PM
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#14 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Within months we'll be hearing about some schmuck with a hacked BIOS running his ram at 3V and CPU at a 5x multiplier with the VCore at 2.25V dunking his system in LN2 and crowing: "I rulez, c0z 1 g0+ DDR666, I 0wn3z all y0r l4m3r 45535!"
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11-18-2002, 06:16 PM
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#15 |
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Cooling Neophyte
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: pffffffff
Posts: 1
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and how about the new Abit NForce Mobo??
they are coming out soon (don't know when exactly) they are already in the news now, maybe wait for that one?? ps: I'll never run DDR666, EVER!!!
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AMD 1.33Mhz @ 1.55 (10x155) | Abit KR7A 133 | Samsung 2700 256MB 2-2-2 | 431W Enermax EG465P-VE (FC) | Klax Gold watercooled | Asus V7700 GTS 32MB | 20G Maxtor, 20G Seagate | Creative SB 1024 Live! | 3Com 3C905 TX 10/100Mbit | Sony 10x/4x/32x, Teac 32x | |
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11-18-2002, 06:20 PM
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#16 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
Join Date: Jul 2002
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They are supposed to have good Voltage options and the highest initial FSB settings of all the board, but it looks like while there is AGP locking, there is NO PCI locking that will ever be available for that board. I may be proved wrong, but that is what it is looking like from leaks that have been made. You can read about this on the Overclockers Forum. Also, there are no mounting holes, so it'll be out for most of us here.
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11-19-2002, 01:20 AM
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#17 |
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Thermophile
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Nuu Zeeelin
Posts: 3,175
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how about the kt400a?
Personally I think that the asus nforce2 board is the best option, it has the pci/agp lock, nice voltage and fsb controls, and future bioses will let you get to what fsb you want.
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2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water |
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11-19-2002, 01:45 AM
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#18 | |
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Cooling Savant
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 381
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Quote:
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Michael E. Robbins M.A.Sc. Candidate, University of Toronto 12.1 GHz of AMD's finest (17.7 GHz total) crunching proudly for the AMDMB.com Killer Frogs SETI BOINC: Dual Opteron 246s (Iwill DK8N) | XP2800+ (Shuttle SN41G2) | 3x XP2400+ (ASUS A7N266-vm) SETI BOINC: 2x P4 2.8E (ASUS P4R800-vm) | Crunching 24/7 |
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11-19-2002, 03:05 AM
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#19 |
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Thermophile
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: France
Posts: 1,221
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No ABit for me, thanx. I've seen a lot of em, and just every board either had a major flaw, or was defective in the long run (blown up capacitors most of the time). They're just as expensive as others, have lower build quality, and are full of "features" which i don't even care of.
So it will be: - An Asus A7V8X as it seems to have a PCI lock. Is it confirmed ? It's *very* important to me as i've got my SCSI controller on PCI - so it's 33.3 and nothing else. - The A7N8X (available now, hey ho BB2K you can get it !) seems fun, but to get the perf out of it (and overtake a KT400) i'll need TWO PC2700 sticks. That adds a lot of money to the mix... And since it's DDR333 i cannot see how it can go any further on the FSB - the board accepts only 1 PC3200 stick ! (according to mfgers and retailers specs) - The next Epox board. These boards are about 30% more expensive than Asus and others, out there. So it has better to be worth it. - A KT400A mobo. As i said i'm planning this for 2003. When are these boards coming out to the retail market ? I've found Corsair memory here, at painful prices (~$190 for 1x256MB stick !!). So maybe 2x256MB of Crucial PC2700 would do it, with a NForce2... Argh i still cannot make my mind. |
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11-19-2002, 09:06 AM
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#20 |
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A7V8X does not have a PCI lock, it's the one that doesn't have the 1/6 divider, so I'd rule it out. You might look into the 8K9A series, but again, that's KT400.
As for the KT400A, there's no final word on it, so don't hold your breath. Right now (and for the next few months), the A7N8X is the best, and only choice! Epox 8RDA+ should be available soon. Watch out for the Vcore adjustment, I can't confirm that you'll be able to feed more than 1.850 volt to the CPU, on the A7N8X, at least not without a mod. |
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11-19-2002, 10:34 AM
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#21 |
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Been /.'d... have you?
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From what I heard, the A7N8X uses that same voltage regulator that is found on many other boards, making the volt mod an easy chore. You should be able to get Corsair XMS PC3200 256MB at googlegear for around 90 per stick, if I remember correctly. That would give you 512MB DDR400 running dual DDR for under $200. The mobo (A7N8X) runs $150 at Newegg for the deluxe version, and the PCI lock on it will prevent your drives from scrambling/smoking. The Asus is the best bet at this point. It'll be an even better buy when they get around to expanding the FSB BIOS settings.
A7V8X is a KT400. You do not want it because it doesn't have either a PCI lock or 1/6 divider. VIA really dropped the ball on that chipset.
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11-19-2002, 12:33 PM
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#22 |
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Thermophile
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: France
Posts: 1,221
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Well i'll wait for KT400A and see if they can beef it up enough.
In the mean time, i'm in Europe, so no googlegear, no newegg. Corsair XMS 3200 256MB runs at $190 here. Thats $380 just for the RAM. The Asus with NForce is at $225. (currently 1 euro = $1) So Nforce2 solution = $605 Now A7V8X is at $144 + 512MB PC2700 from Crucial (134£ = 211 euro) total= $355. Even if i take 1 512MB Corsair stick (PC3200) the total is still 144+329=$473 Now lets say i dont take the A7V8X but a KT400A equivalent - which will be priced just about the same... what i see here is no difference and an economy of about $130... So the NForce2 *has* to be a lot better than the KT400A (ie the KT400A wont have 1/6 divider or PCI lock, or other major flaw)... |
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11-19-2002, 12:49 PM
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#23 |
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The A7N8X can be had here for less than $150 (USD).
The Corsair memory should be cheaper as 2*256 MB sticks, than one 512MB stick. I wouldn't bet that a KT400A mobo would be the same price as a KT400. Since there are so many issues with the KT400, it has a quickly dropping value... I'm also going to wait-n-see if the KT400A can outperform the NForce2. I'm hoping that they will at least add the 1/6 divider; if not, then it's out. |
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11-19-2002, 01:08 PM
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#24 | ||||
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Thermophile
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: France
Posts: 1,221
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Quote:
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1 - 512MB sticks all cost less than 2x256... thats true for any manufacturer 2 - i just checked the prices: $190 for 1x256MB and $326 for 1x512MB, all Corsair XMS 3200. Quote:
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Oh and besides what's with those stories of NForce2 not tested with DDR400, and mobos only accepting 1 PC3200 stick... ? |
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11-19-2002, 01:49 PM
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#25 |
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I don't know about that. There aren't too many good reviews of the A7N8X out yet.
As for the RAM, it looks like ya'll are getting ripped off. Click me and click here . Well, they're about the same... I have seen no info whatsoever on the KT400A, just rumors. What do you have? |
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