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General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion For discussion about Full Cooling System kits, or general cooling topics. Keep specific cooling items like pumps, radiators, etc... in their specific forums. |
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06-23-2003, 01:40 AM | #1 |
Cooling Savant
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How to do disaster management?
I have a question that occured to me last night. What kind of DISASTER RECOVERY methods do people use, and what is the best way to implement them.
These are my thoughts, I would like to see other folks comment on them, point out anything I might have missed, or tell me how they deal with a given failure type. I didn't find anything useful when I searched on the subject here, If there are threads on it already that I missed, please let me know. I intend to have the system I'm building running 24/7 (I think it's better for the hardware, and I don't like waiting for bootups) This naturally causes me concern about how to handle different system failures, especially the ones that might occur when nobody is at the console. I'm doing a plain WC setup, no pelts, extreme tech. etc. All of my cooling hardware will be in or on my case. I will be running Linux, but the functions would be similiar on that other OS, even if the software is different. (i.e. Linux uses lm_sensors, MS stuff uses MBM or equivalent) As many folks have pointed out, there are risks in WC'ing a system, I think there are also risks in an AC'd system, just different ones. However I would think that advance planning and care in system design can manage the risk so as to minimize the damage risks. DEFINITION: A properly managed risk is one where a failure causes no hardware damage to the system beyond the failed part itself. Data corruption or system downtime is undesireable but totally acceptable if it prevents hardware damage. Failures in the PC hardware itself I don't see as an issue because they will handle (or not) the same way no matter how the system is cooled. (Note that WC'ing is supposed to reduce the odds of hardware failures by giving better temps, but that's a different issue) Five failure modes exist for a WC system that I can see. Each would have a different set of symptoms, detection methods, damage potential, and optimum handling to avoid damage to data or hardware.[list=1][*]Partial pump failure / flow restriction[*]TOTAL pump failure / flow blockage[*]Radiator cooling (fan) failure[*]LEAKS[*]Excess temperature rise[/list=1] (Combinations of the above might happen, but I suspect that one would actually happen first, and trigger others if not handled) To take them one at a time: 1. Partial pump failure or flow restriction - Symptom - Temperature rises to new equilibrium point, how high depends on level of failure. Detection - Flowmeter and / or Normal temperature monitoring, mobo or digidoc based. Handling - Varies and depends on severity. Certainly generate an alarm (can't fix it if you don't know it's broke, and can't count on user checking) Severe case should be treated as total failure. Less severe case might turn on / increase speeds on fans to increase cooling levels and bring temps back down. 2. Total pump failure or flow blockage. Symptom - Temperature rises to MELTDOWN levels - I'm not sure how fast... (opinions anyone?) Detection - optimal would be some kind of flow detector, (flow meter, pressure switch, etc.) If that doesn't exist, look for temperature increases. Handling - Trigger alarm? Shut system down. Opinion requested how fast would depend on speed of temperature rise and detection method. (Can a digidoc talk to a mobo BTW? also, can a Digidoc and a mobo share temp or fan speed sensors?) If there is enough time, shut down gracefully ('shutdown -h now') otherwise trigger a relay to interrupt power and slam system off. (deal with any resulting data loss / corruption later) 3. Radiator cooling (fan) failure. Symptom - Similiar to 1 or 2 above, but slower (more water to heat) Detection - Fan speed monitoring optimal, or look for temp increase. Handling - Trigger alarm, turn on / increase speed of any redundant fans, other case fans. If temp rises beyond 'comfortable' levels, shut system down, preferably gracefully (there should be time) 4. LEAKS!!! Symptom - FLOOD, Possible major component damage! Detection - Nothing I know of as standard PC equipment, I would consider modding a basement water detector with the sensor(s) in the bottom of the case and other vulnerable spots. I would also consider a level sensor in the res, if you use one. Mods to detector -
Beforehand - Consider putting conformal coating or other waterproofing on all boards. Questions -
5. Excessive temperature rise - This is kind of a last ditch defense intended to catch anything that didn't trip another alarm. Symptom - Temperatures trending towards potential meltdown. CPU temperatures exceeding normal operation range significantly. Detection - I see two points needed, 'Concern' and 'Panic'. 'Concern' I would trigger at say 10*C over normal maximum. Panic I would trigger at 10*C over 'Concern'. (or well below CPU damage threshold) Concern level triggering I would use on-board monitoring. Ideally Panic level I would trigger with an off board monitor to ensure a process wouldn't keep it from triggering. Handling - Concern - start a graceful shutdown... Handling - Panic - Shut down power immediately! I know this was long, but tell me what you think... Gooserider
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Designing system, will have Tyan S2468UGN Dual Athlon MOBO, SCSI HDDS, other goodies. Will run LINUX only. Want to have silent running, minimal fans, and water cooled. Probably not OC'c |
06-23-2003, 02:03 AM | #2 |
Cooling Savant
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I've been running an OCed system for a year now and Havn't had any problems except the ones I created. Tangent...Like the time I wondered how low I could go and dumped 6 gallons of ice into my bong. Not realizing everything in the loop would get covered in water.
As to prevent damage: 1) Go over your system weekly making sure there aren't any small leaks. I had an almost microscopic leak on a block and it took me 3 weeks of use to spot it even after I hooked a compresser to it and did the bubble test.(Bad solder joint or something). 2) Make sure your tubing isn't wearing away. 3) Check coolant levels 4) Listen, dying machines often make evil sounds I would also set my MB or OS to shutdown at critical temps. Even with a pump failure the block and waters thermal mass will prevent an instantaneous failure. If you had an external monitor like a PIC or STAMP you could have it monitor temps, flow and rpm then flip a relay if one should go beyond a threshold. |
06-23-2003, 08:08 PM | #3 |
Put up or Shut Up
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Hose clamps and over heat shut down set to a low temp that will not lock the computer up before it can shut down the comp. Been working 24/7 for a few years now and multiple systems just peachy.
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06-23-2003, 10:44 PM | #4 |
Cooling Savant
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i thought about getting a probe and setup that would detect water if it was to leak. place a probe under the WB, pump, tubes, etc. It would send an alert (alarm, buzzer) and do a sys shut down.
never did impliment thoe. If you smell something odd, then panic.
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If you smell something odd coming from your puter, panic and run crazy. Shut her down and grab a towel. As to watercooling going mainstream: We are truely dedicated to it, we know everything, and we have perfected it. |
06-24-2003, 02:21 AM | #5 | |
Cooling Savant
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Well, maybe I'm over paranoid...
Well, maybe I'm over paranoid... But this system is a really big chunk of my disposable income - I can't afford to blow it up!
Thanks for the kind words at any rate, they do sound reassuring, but I know that I have a tendency to not be as good as I should be about checking stuff. I'm trying to design around that as well. Quote:
I took an older one apart once, and it was pretty simple inside. I'd be willing to bet it would be possible to pick a signal off the alarm speaker and use that to trip a relay that would kill the system power. I might consider replacing the battery with a wall-wart or tapping into a PC supply line, but it really isn't needed, the batteries last for years. The only question might be whether it would have enough power to trip the kill relay. The sensor is just two bare metal pins about 1/4" apart, mounted in a plastic insulator. (it apparently works by the water shorting out the pins) I see no reason why you couldn't hack the sensor cord to put lots of parallel test points into it. The only caution is that the pins will detect contact with a case part as a leak, so some care in mounting is indicated. Just guessing, but I think you could probably build the whole setup in a few hours and it wouldn't cost more than $20-30. As a bonus, it should be possible to use the same kill relay for any of the other above alarms I suggested where slamming the power is appropriate. Gooserider
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Designing system, will have Tyan S2468UGN Dual Athlon MOBO, SCSI HDDS, other goodies. Will run LINUX only. Want to have silent running, minimal fans, and water cooled. Probably not OC'c |
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06-24-2003, 08:59 AM | #6 |
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Well, you're right to be cautious.
For leaks, since they can come from any point, Conformal coating is still, IMO, your first defense. Otherwise, a flow sensor, and a temp gauge (in the water) is my second step, while letting the mobo (with OCP) protect the CPU. Hose clamps are a life saver Otherwise, to detect water, you can use the old salt pill in a clothes pin: make contacts there, and put some salt: when the water dissolves, the contacts trigger. |
06-24-2003, 09:10 AM | #7 |
Big PlayerMaking Big Money
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leaks don't usually just come out of nowhere. Use hose clamps and then put UV dye in the water when you fill. After you clamp everything in place then turn on a uv lamp and verify you don't have any leaks around barbs or clamps. .
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06-24-2003, 09:28 AM | #8 | |
Put up or Shut Up
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First off of this is such an important and your only comp that you don't want damaged then drop the idea of messing with it at all. Get a good adjustable speed air cooloer and be done with it. Save up a few hundred and buy a mobo/ram/PS/vid card to test on. Don't need a case for this or expensive parts. If I was worried about breaking things I sure the hell wouldn't be testing blocks on my comp. Your going to break things when putting on and taking off blocks consistantly (testing in other words). Water will get dribbled, mobo's will die, ect.... Got a stack a dead mobo's to show for it over the last 3 years and expect at any moment to break things. I am willing to afford though. If you can't then don't mess with a perfectly good system. But anyway water sensors are not to hard to make and customize. http://hallbeng.jlab.org/firesafety/watersensor.htm http://www.electronic-circuits-diagr...msimages/4.gif www.google.com search Water Sensor Circuit and it will come up with ideas on it. You can also get a flow switch. If the flow stops you can set it up to trip the relay and shut it all down. |
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06-24-2003, 12:50 PM | #9 |
Cooling Savant
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Depending on the size of your CPU block, most of those failures can be captured just with regular temp monitoring and a "shutdown -h now" when temps get too high. Here's my experiences with various components not working (either I forgot to plug something in, or simulated a failure). These are all cooling a OD'd TBird @ 1.85V using a Maze-2 block
1. Rad-fan failure. If system is idling, temps go up fairly high, but systems keeps running and remains stable. Just playing MP3's (about 3% load) I can turn off every fan in the system except the PSU fan and listen to music for hours without a crash. Under a load, I overheat and lock up after about 10 minutes, but as it is a very slow temp rise, it locks up and cools back down before any damage is done. Conclusion - even on a heavily loaded server a rad-fan failure will give you at least 10 minutes of warning based on CPU temp reading for a clean shutdown. 2. Pump failure. I once forgot to plug in the pumps AC cord after some system maintenance. First boot (block and coolant at ambient) I made it into windows, logged in, and started Outlook before the system locked. Hit reset-button, got to windows logon prompt. Hit reset button, got almost to logon prompt. Reset two or three more times, all crashed during windows boot process. Powered off machine, found pump problem, plugged it in, turned on comp, booted into windows fine and ran the rest of the day as expected. Conclusion - even on a heavily loaded server a pump failure will give you at least 2 minutes of warning based on CPU temp reading for a clean shutdown. 3. Partial pump failure. I haven't tried to simulate this, or any other type of obstruction of flow while the system is running. Based on my observations running with no pump at all though if you have the system set to shut down at a certain temp, if this restriction is severe enough the existing protection will catch it, if it is not that severe, the system will continue running stably. I've never had to deal with a leak before. But based on my experience running with no pump, the mass of copper in a good-sized block along with whatever water remains inside the block not moving (I don't think most blocks will drain completly without being rotated some) can absorb enough heat for a system to run for a minute or two. Even if you lose most of the coolant out of the block, you should still have a minute of temp-warning for a clean shutdown. |
06-27-2003, 02:46 AM | #10 | |||||||
Cooling Savant
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BTW, My current plan is to use braid reinforced polyethelyne (sp?) tubing - the kind often used in soda fountains, etc. My local hardware store has a good selection, I know the stuff is pretty strong, and it seems very resistant to kinking. Any reason you know of NOT to use it? Quote:
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I would go with the air cooled approach, except that I can't stand the racket I already get from my old PC with TWO fans - one little job on the CPU cooler and one on the PSU, plus a couple of old SCSI drives. I already know that I can't do a "bladerunner grade" silent system, but I want to get as close to it as I can, and water cooling seems like the way to do it. Quote:
I know some of this may seem like excess paranoia, but you get into certain mindsets when you spend years working on the kind of high reliability / redundant systems that I have. Gooserider
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Designing system, will have Tyan S2468UGN Dual Athlon MOBO, SCSI HDDS, other goodies. Will run LINUX only. Want to have silent running, minimal fans, and water cooled. Probably not OC'c |
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06-27-2003, 03:53 AM | #11 | |
Cooling Neophyte
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06-27-2003, 04:09 AM | #12 |
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Before you go with a water detection sensor you may want to make sure that it will set off when using distilled water. I work in a refinery and we use a setup in our clean rooms that detects changes in moisture, if there was a leak you could use this device to kill the entire system if moisture above a certain percent is detected.
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06-27-2003, 11:18 AM | #13 |
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I think that a Disaster Recovery effort starts with a good design. Avoid using undersized barbs.
The braided stuff is fine, but stiff. If the block is lifted above the CPU, it will fry. I'll be using 3/4" ID braided vinyl tubing myself, along with some regular 1/2" ID simple vinyl tubing. It should also be understood that the OCP has limits: it will not protect your CPU, if you suddenly take off the HSF or waterblock, while it's running. A lot of the risks involved have a potential to appear when the rig is first run, while other risks are more long term. You ought to categorize them. I'd forget about the water detector: the flow sensor will pickup on a fault. OC has an article on making one, out of an old fan, and copper fitting. Otherwise, there's one that was posted recently. |
06-28-2003, 03:02 AM | #14 | ||||||||
Cooling Savant
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I notice that many folks use springs to mount their blocks, doesn't this increase the odds of a block lifting? What are the pros and cons of springs vs. solid mounts? Quote:
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Gooserider
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Designing system, will have Tyan S2468UGN Dual Athlon MOBO, SCSI HDDS, other goodies. Will run LINUX only. Want to have silent running, minimal fans, and water cooled. Probably not OC'c |
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06-28-2003, 07:44 AM | #15 |
Cooling Savant
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I've got a little involved in this and although it's not finished the way I want it yet, as I've a liquid level detector to fit to the res, and water detectors to the base of the PC case, I have a very simple low restriction flow sensor / shutdown system that also wont allow the PC to be started unless the pump is plugged in and on.
more on that HERE The key to lack of leaks is really in the hands of the, individual, the design and application. I like the festo style push fittings for all the other system blocks than CPU in my system, (the CPU benefits from a bore size that makes push fit types unsuitable). The fittings are rated 10 bar air and so far I've had no leak issues with them. They are also simple to disconnect reconnect when messing about with the system. With the CPU block using standard barbs I always use one larger than the tube, (barb ID same as Tube ID tygon r-3603 on 5/8 barbs for instance), so the tube requires boiling water immersion and a lot of effort to get it on. Once on no ugly, and possible leak causing hose clips are not required, as the tube will not pull off even using all my weight and strength with the barb in a vice. As far as blocks go I solder them together, and make sure to air pressure test them with 4 bar air, the block immersed in water. The block is place under an upturned glass bowl underwater with all air removed and left overnight if there is even the slightest air leak it will show as trapped air in the upturned glass bowl. I'm not arrogant enough to believe I will never have a leak or disaster but the risks can be significantly reduced with some care and forethought, the most important thing is logical working procedures, when putting it all together. I have an acceptable situation in my mind, and that is one major water-cooling disaster every two years, to me is acceptable to have silent Water Cooling over noisy air-cooling........... so far 1 & a half years on...... (crossed fingers), no leaks or death by water-cooling yet
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06-28-2003, 10:09 AM | #16 | |
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Some flow meters add a lot of resistance, but flow sensors usually don't, if properly selected. I can't believe that you didn't find the one that was presented recently. BTW, you're off your rocker about the restriction adding heat: while the heat will appear at the restriction, removing the restriction will only cause the heat to appear at another restriction(s) within the loop Just forget about the heat thing. The flow sensor will protect your CPU, even if there is little flow: that's all you need. When there's no flow, then the CPU will eventually, over a certain period of time, overheat and die. The level sensor is a good idea, as long as none of the coolant is evaporating. Even better is the Conformal coating, and an allowance for the leaked water to exit the case. The real problem, is figuring out the possible leak points. |
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06-29-2003, 12:40 AM | #17 | ||||||||
Cooling Savant
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I didn't see anything about the level detector, though I think that should be pretty easy, at least for a 'low level alarm. I plan to put a sight tube on the res. to make visually checking the actual level pretty easy. If I put a float in the sight tube with a magnet in it, I can do proximity switches to get a rough quantity reading. Alternatively, I might be able to do something with adapting an automotive gas gauge... BTW, do you happen to know of a US source for those flow sensor switches? Quote:
I won't argue with your results, but I really would use at least a tie-wrap on your barbs, no matter how tight they seem. I have seen pressure cause a hose to stretch just a little bit as it ages, and either start seeping or blow off the fitting. A clamp (or tie wrap) puts a limit on how far up the fitting the hose can stretch. Quote:
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Gooserider
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Designing system, will have Tyan S2468UGN Dual Athlon MOBO, SCSI HDDS, other goodies. Will run LINUX only. Want to have silent running, minimal fans, and water cooled. Probably not OC'c |
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06-29-2003, 03:03 AM | #18 |
Cooling Savant
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I'm not sure why theres a reason to use a flow sensor. A decrease in flow results in increase in heat so just add a small thermister to the cpu block. The point is to kill the system when it gets too hot. A decrease in flow may not necessarily hurt the system too much so calibrating the cut-off point for a flow value is difficult.
For a water level sensor use the same sensor as you would to detect a leak but in reverse. Place the leak sensor in your res and when it no longer detects the leak then your water level has dropped. This could double as a leak sensor because obviously if your coolant level is dropping than that water is going somewhere. |
06-29-2003, 03:44 AM | #19 |
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i'm going to get an water cooling system that probably will have pelts on it so i'm obiviously new to this whole watercooling systems.
anyway i have a couple ideas. for the leaking detector, depending on how big it is, if its small one you could place one below each barb joint. example. look at the cpu block, say its an maze4 with both of the barb sticking out top of it, now you could place a little funnel below both barb then have the leak sensor in the neck of the funnel. so when one or the other start to leak it would trigger off the leak detector and bam, system goes down, and you could optionaly have an additional setup. allright, you got say one pannel from a 3.5 exterial drive, just drill a few holes and put in a few lights, say one for pump, one for radator, one for cpu, one for video card, and then one for the resvor. now you have a small say 9 volt battery behide the pannel then you hook the lights up into ur auto kill system so what happens is. when one of the leak sensor sense water, it kills the system and trip maybe a breaker, or somthing i ditto, but it trips and one of the light on the little pannel comes on and it will stay on because you have a little 9 volt battery to keep it on so the user will know why the system triped and where the leak was. just an idea might be too complex but i don't think it is overly complex heck i might try it myself my dad and i am not pro electricans but were decent with electrical items so i might try to make that little mod myself would be a good first warning. by that i mean, if you system just turns off you know something bad happened but you don't know WHAT happened, so.... with that little light pannel you would atleast have a idea as of what happened. now you could probably wire up few more lights for other possiable failure, such as flow, if the flow gets too low, bam one of the light comes on, then another one is you can mount an mirco switch on your block, if it lifts off bam another light comes on and system is shutdown, aka an relay that is just blowen the second the block lifts off the dice. then another one could be for the resvor, you could have a little resvor level sensor when it goes below a certain level bam another light comes on and it could optionaly kill the system but then again you already have leak detector all over the system at the leak point. now i don't know how much it would cost but i would guess some cheap LED lights, a few of em, and some wiring, probably a rechargable battery, and probably a few relay/switch whatever however u plan on tripping the system, then some sensor the total cost should be i hope maybe $50 or less, depending on what you want to do with it i guess. its just an idea, and admitly i like the idea myself, i'm newbie to watercooling and this idea might help me push my watercooling system to. |
06-29-2003, 05:15 AM | #20 |
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I think that maybe you are all going overboard a little. It's almost as if you are bolting another four engines, an extra set of wings and sticking a few more pilots in a Jumbo Jet just in case some parts fail. Trouble with that is you get to a point where its so overly complex you miss something simple, so the plane still crashes .
I'll have to do an air pressure test with my clipless pipes but I can assure you they will not pop off, slip off, or leak, Just think about it with the barb in a vice using all my strength and body weight all I can do is stretch the tube a bit. I used to have the whole system with barbs done in a similar fashion, and none ever leaked or came off. I much prefer the festo push fittings now because I can make smaller neater blocks and connect and disconnect them quickly & easily without worry of leaks. The tube isn't an issue once you have some of the correct stuff, I think it was about £15 for 20 meters of the 8mm The liquid level sensor as said I haven't done yet but I'll be using a sealed optical type liquid sensor I have here atm. Part of the reason for soldering my blocks is with the more complex shapes of the VGA ram blocks and Splitter-X in my system, it would be very difficult to make a seal grove without access to CNC, and like you say the blocks can be thinner walled and smaller overall if soldered. It doesn't really matter what target you set yourself but I think you have to be realistic when using water cooling and that's why I say "major disaster every two years". I would probably double that to every four years if I just built the system and then didn't dick around with it at all, but as I'm constantly modding it and upgrading parts of it adding new blocks etc, the possibility of a screw up on my part is much higher. It wont change the world but if you beat your target you'll get a nice warm feeling about it too.
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06-29-2003, 05:37 AM | #21 | |
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you might think it is overkill but heh if its what $50 to say $100 to do a little bit of disaster prevation its well worth it like that funnel and the water sensor with little lightboard on front of computer heh
atleast if something goes to hell you will know what it probably was before opening the case Quote:
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06-29-2003, 07:24 AM | #22 |
Cooling Savant
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Well there you go, your jumbo jet would never crash as it would never get off the ground Looks as if you've made my point for me..
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06-29-2003, 07:28 AM | #23 | |
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What has happened historically, is that a brass barb in an Aluminium top would corrode, and break a seal: just don't do it. Hose split has happened once, when the water was allowed to get so hot, that it melted the tubing, so don't allow that to happen either, that's all. The same heat can melt a plastic top, and cause an o-ring failure: I've seen that twice. They were the result of either a lack of OCP, or OCP failure. |
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06-29-2003, 10:28 AM | #24 |
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Here's the latest flow switch that was found:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...=&postid=79336 |
06-29-2003, 10:31 PM | #25 |
Cooling Savant
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I'm not sure if a leak detector would work 100%
There are lots of points in a system for a leak, and even a few drops on your memory, video, mobo..etc while the system is running is BAD. The only time i see where the leak detector would be sucessful is if your having a flood in the case, like a hose came off (impossible when using hose clamps). In the event of that, i think by the time the detector reacts, your system is would be dead anyways. Unless you put about 50 leak detector senors in there, i dont think it will be 100% effective. Infact, where there needs to be almost 0 risk to a system, high quality air cooling is your best bet. Set up your computer to shutdown when the tempurature reaches a certain point, and to shutdown when the fan stops. All you have to do is maintain the fan by keeping dust from building up. If you still want watercooling, consider using a separate case, like a external SCSI drive enclosure to house the radiator and pump, and run to lines to the computer, this minimizes the amount of places leaks could occur within the case, you only have the waterblock, and a properly sealed block should be no problem. Of course, setup the temperature and fan shutdowns, and that should be pretty safe. You could even put a few leak dectors on the block, which would be semi effective since this is the only place for leaks within the computer. |
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