New Design: Ww+rotor

Balinju · 03-26-2003, 02:29 PM

Ok so the two most water blocks that stuck me most are cathar's ww and #rotor's design (ben don't get angry with me i did not forget your radius). On cathar's design i don't have to comment and rotor's design is effective and easy to built (not that easy but compaired to others it is).

so i tried to merge these two designes into 1, using the water velocity of cathars block and using the massive turbulance in rotor's design and i came up with this design.

so this is my plan, to try this water block i am ready to buy an xy table since i don't have any cnc, but a normal drill press. i planned to first cast it out of al then when done all the mods then try it out in copper.

what do you think about it.

Balinju · 03-26-2003, 02:34 PM

to be sincier i did not opt for micro channels at first, i was thinking on how to build the exit of the water after passing through the turbulant area. i thought of the dremmel cuts which rotor use to connect one whole with an other, and guess what what the design came to look like, sorry cathar if you are offened.

Balinju · 03-26-2003, 02:37 PM

ok so here's some techinical detail

bigben2k · 03-26-2003, 02:38 PM

Volenti did the same thing, that's what I think

source

Balinju · 03-26-2003, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
Volenti did the same thing, that's what I think

source

yes i saw that thread, but ben look carefully, there are no pins in this block. the channels are not connected verically

Balinju · 03-26-2003, 02:42 PM

maybe this would help ben

hara · 03-26-2003, 02:52 PM

Making a #rotor block with 2mm drill bits is quite a challenge. I wouldn't say impossible, given the right equipment.

Balinju · 03-26-2003, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hara
Making a #rotor block with 2mm drill bits is quite a challenge. I wouldn't say impossible, given the right equipment.

i know and that's the first thing that passed to mind while planning this block. But as rotor himself said, practice makes perfect

bigben2k · 03-26-2003, 02:54 PM

Hmmm, that should have an interesting effect.

I think that the gain you'll get from the additional turbulence is going to be negated by the loss of the mass of the fins.

Consider a conical shape to drill, instead of a normal drill bit: it would leave a significant mass at the base of the fins.

Balinju · 03-26-2003, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
Hmmm, that should have an interesting effect.

I think that the gain you'll get from the additional turbulence is going to be negated by the loss of the mass of the fins.

Consider a conical shape to drill, instead of a normal drill bit: it would leave a significant mass at the base of the fins.

did not understand what you mean by loss of the mass of the fins

bigben2k · 03-26-2003, 03:15 PM

Hmmm kay...

The fins are very carefully proportionned, so that the fin width and the channel width fall within a set ratio. Also, your proposal includes cutting into the fins, to make them thinner.

By affecting this ratio, and by reducing the thickness of the fins, you are loosing some performance.

BUT

you might be able to gain some of it back, from the turbulence that this design is going to put into the water flow.

BTW, you can cut those channels like Morphling1 did: use a circular saw blade. It should be possible to reach even 0.2 mm, but that gets tricky.

Balinju · 03-26-2003, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
Hmmm kay...

The fins are very carefully proportionned, so that the fin width and the channel width fall within a set ratio. Also, your proposal includes cutting into the fins, to make them thinner.

By affecting this ratio, and by reducing the thickness of the fins, you are loosing some performance.

BUT

you might be able to gain some of it back, from the turbulence that this design is going to put into the water flow.

BTW, you can cut those channels like Morphling1 did: use a circular saw blade. It should be possible to reach even 0.2 mm, but that gets tricky.

but as you can see, in the middle part of the block i am opting to use a high water velocity and turbulance together, so i'm excluding part of cathar's principles, but i'm hoping i could get something out of this design, at least learn something, just like i did learn while designing squirrel with hara. Although i have to say that i am not expecting it to be better than ww, of course not, i'm not even trying to get that good, i'm still an amature at watercooling

on the milling part, i've been thinking about circular saw blade, but i'm will do my first one using a drill press and an xy table to see what the new drill press can do that's why i'm planning to first mill it in al, it's like cutting butter

Balinju · 03-26-2003, 03:33 PM

one of the first things that i am not sure about is how large the area of turbulace should be. any suggestions
the dimentions of the current one just cover a small area further more than an amd core

hara · 03-26-2003, 03:48 PM

Adding to an already proven concept is very good.

IMO, the design involves the tooling required to cut a WW block. This means that to be able to do this block, one has to be able to do a white water. 7 channels (13mm), are too little. I would Increase it to about 18mm.

Also, starting with aluminium is a good decision as you will waste a lot of metal perfecting the machining methods. Just a constructive suggestion.

bigben2k · 03-26-2003, 04:02 PM

Oh sh*t, he's right!

In Alu, your baseplate is going to be a little thicker, so where WW overlaps the core by 2mm all around, in Alu, you'll want an even bigger gap.

AMD core is 7.47mm by about 11 (Tbred B).

Balinju · 03-26-2003, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hara
Adding to an already proven concept is very good.

IMO, the design involves the tooling required to cut a WW block. This means that to be able to do this block, one has to be able to do a white water. 7 channels (13mm), are too little. I would Increase it to about 18mm.

Also, starting with aluminium is a good decision as you will waste a lot of metal perfecting the machining methods. Just a constructive suggestion.

i know that there are only 7 channels, i thought of that too, but remember that the amd core (the new tbred b) is not squarish any more and the vertical side is shorter than the hoizonatal side

so i catered for that too.

the height of a tbred b is about 7.5 mm. 13 mm of fins are more than enough imo (in copper)

remember also that there are the holes within the fins so theoretically there are not 13mm of fins and holes but 14mm

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k

Oh sh*t, he's right!

In Alu, your baseplate is going to be a little thicker, so where WW overlaps the core by 2mm all around, in Alu, you'll want an even bigger gap.

AMD core is 7.47mm by about 11 (Tbred B).

i did not think that in alu i need a bigger gap, you are right about this one, forgot, but my design is there to be milled in copper at the very end

so it is for nothing testing with more channels when i know that in copper i am only going to cut 7. what i might do is to increase a little bit the baseplate when milling an al.

or maybe, if i find it easy to mill in al, i could add one channel on each side

utabintarbo · 03-27-2003, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hara
...

Also, starting with aluminium is a good decision as you will waste a lot of metal perfecting the machining methods. Just a constructive suggestion.

I would think that due to the very different qualities of machining Al and Cu, that the machining methods found to work with Al will not necessarily work with Cu. It would be close to starting from scratch. I'm sure fixitt or jd would have more to say regarding this, due to their experience.

Bob

Balinju · 03-27-2003, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by utabintarbo
I would think that due to the very different qualities of machining Al and Cu, that the machining methods found to work with Al will not necessarily work with Cu. It would be close to starting from scratch. I'm sure fixitt or jd would have more to say regarding this, due to their experience.

Bob

i did not know this

but at least milling in al first i would get some experience since i never milled a water block in my life before, and i am going to mill it using a drill press and an xy table.

today i started my testing on milling. i started with a piece of steel (much harder than al to mill) and i hadn't a milling bit but normal drill bits. i found one which was split into 2 pieces, i got the piece which fixes up with the driller and used a mitresaw to flatten the bottom of the drill bit. i know that a milling bit is much better that i couldn't go and buy one today.

with this method and my drill press i managed to remove about 0.5mm from a piece of steel with no lubricant or coolant (just some water). i think i would at least manage to mill that block in al with a good mill and a good xy table. hope that i am not dreaming

bigben2k · 03-27-2003, 10:08 AM

Off the top of my head...

Al is pretty soft, and some endmills are available specifically for it.

Copper is much harder, but can still "stick" to the cutting tool. Endmills are usually 2 or 3 flutes, preferably TIN coated (not more, not less), and made of either HSS (high speed steel) which is often a poor choice, cobalt HSS or carbon steel.

If you want specifics: Google!

hara · 03-27-2003, 10:21 AM

But there are also carbide...or am I wrong?

What are flutes?

Balinju · 03-27-2003, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
Off the top of my head...

Al is pretty soft, and some endmills are available specifically for it.

Copper is much harder, but can still "stick" to the cutting tool. Endmills are usually 2 or 3 flutes, preferably TIN coated (not more, not less), and made of either HSS (high speed steel) which is often a poor choice, cobalt HSS or carbon steel.

If you want specifics: Google!

i was going to use carbide endmills because they are better than hss and like that i will break less endmills

if i find somewhere i will opt also for 3 flute endmills, i know that i am looking too far but since i don't have a cnc, i need at least good mills.

hara i can explain to you tomorrow at school what flutes are because i don't know how am i going to write it

bigben2k · 03-27-2003, 10:40 AM

Yes, there's carbide (not carbon steel!).

A quick guide

jaydee · 03-27-2003, 01:46 PM

Flutes are the sharp edges of the endmill. If there are 2 cutting edges then it is a 2 flute, 3 cutting edges then it is a 3 flute, ect ect..

And yes Carbide is the way to go for smaller endmills.

Balinju · 03-27-2003, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaydee116

And yes Carbide is the way to go for smaller endmills.

that's what i was thinking. carbide is very brittle but it is very stong. what do you suggest for al, 3flute or 2?? i think 3 flute is better but they cost more than 2 for sure

what do you suggest?

jaydee · 03-27-2003, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Balinju
that's what i was thinking. carbide is very brittle but it is very stong. what do you suggest for al, 3flute or 2?? i think 3 flute is better but they cost more than 2 for sure

what do you suggest?

I like 2 flute because I have troubles with gumming up with the 3 flute. if you have a good liquid lubed sytem though the 3 flute would be the way to go. I am stuck with using WD40 which works but it doesn't remove the shaving aswell as a liquid cooling/lubing system.

03-26-2003, 02:34 PM	#2
Balinju Cooling Savant Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 495	to be sincier i did not opt for micro channels at first, i was thinking on how to build the exit of the water after passing through the turbulant area. i thought of the dremmel cuts which rotor use to connect one whole with an other, and guess what what the design came to look like, sorry cathar if you are offened. __________________ So the bullet proof vest aint a $hit when d laser is pointed to your head Kid

03-26-2003, 02:38 PM	#4
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Volenti did the same thing, that's what I think source __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-26-2003, 02:52 PM	#7
hara Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malta, Mediterranean Posts: 662	Making a #rotor block with 2mm drill bits is quite a challenge. I wouldn't say impossible, given the right equipment. __________________ - Every great HD crash day is the day before back-up day. - My Past System - "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." - Milton, Paradise Lost. - FMZ

03-26-2003, 02:54 PM	#9
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Hmmm, that should have an interesting effect. I think that the gain you'll get from the additional turbulence is going to be negated by the loss of the mass of the fins. Consider a conical shape to drill, instead of a normal drill bit: it would leave a significant mass at the base of the fins. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-26-2003, 03:15 PM	#11
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Hmmm kay... The fins are very carefully proportionned, so that the fin width and the channel width fall within a set ratio. Also, your proposal includes cutting into the fins, to make them thinner. By affecting this ratio, and by reducing the thickness of the fins, you are loosing some performance. BUT you might be able to gain some of it back, from the turbulence that this design is going to put into the water flow. BTW, you can cut those channels like Morphling1 did: use a circular saw blade. It should be possible to reach even 0.2 mm, but that gets tricky. __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-26-2003, 03:33 PM	#13
Balinju Cooling Savant Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 495	one of the first things that i am not sure about is how large the area of turbulace should be. any suggestions the dimentions of the current one just cover a small area further more than an amd core __________________ So the bullet proof vest aint a $hit when d laser is pointed to your head Kid Last edited by Balinju; 03-26-2003 at 03:42 PM.

03-26-2003, 03:48 PM	#14
hara Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malta, Mediterranean Posts: 662	Adding to an already proven concept is very good. IMO, the design involves the tooling required to cut a WW block. This means that to be able to do this block, one has to be able to do a white water. 7 channels (13mm), are too little. I would Increase it to about 18mm. Also, starting with aluminium is a good decision as you will waste a lot of metal perfecting the machining methods. Just a constructive suggestion. __________________ - Every great HD crash day is the day before back-up day. - My Past System - "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." - Milton, Paradise Lost. - FMZ

03-26-2003, 04:02 PM	#15
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Oh sh*t, he's right! In Alu, your baseplate is going to be a little thicker, so where WW overlaps the core by 2mm all around, in Alu, you'll want an even bigger gap. AMD core is 7.47mm by about 11 (Tbred B). __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-27-2003, 10:08 AM	#19
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Off the top of my head... Al is pretty soft, and some endmills are available specifically for it. Copper is much harder, but can still "stick" to the cutting tool. Endmills are usually 2 or 3 flutes, preferably TIN coated (not more, not less), and made of either HSS (high speed steel) which is often a poor choice, cobalt HSS or carbon steel. If you want specifics: Google! __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-27-2003, 10:21 AM	#20
hara Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malta, Mediterranean Posts: 662	But there are also carbide...or am I wrong? What are flutes? __________________ - Every great HD crash day is the day before back-up day. - My Past System - "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." - Milton, Paradise Lost. - FMZ

03-27-2003, 10:40 AM	#22
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Yes, there's carbide (not carbon steel!). A quick guide __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

03-27-2003, 01:46 PM	#23
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	Flutes are the sharp edges of the endmill. If there are 2 cutting edges then it is a 2 flute, 3 cutting edges then it is a 3 flute, ect ect.. And yes Carbide is the way to go for smaller endmills.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)