"The ideal water block"

Bruno Facca · 07-25-2002, 12:02 AM

I'm designing a new water block (for commercializing), my goal is to maximize heat transfer inducing as much turbulent water flow as possible without creating too much flow resistance, I would like to know what are your thoughts on a couple of issues, please help me to give you what you want in a water block:

1 - How would you like a block that is one piece only (avoiding any leaks)? Do you feel the need to open your block for cleaning (or whatever) from time to time?

2 - What is your preferred retention system and why? I have some new designs here but there are no pictures available yet. The link below has images of some well known water blocks from various companies, they're all nice blocks, each one has it's own retention system. Please take a look and tell me wich one you like most and why, also any new ideas are welcome. I'm not going to copy anyone else's retention system, this post is just some research about the what the public want in a water block.
http://paginas.terra.com.br/lazer/bj...aterblocks.htm

3 - Would you like the hose fittings to be 3/8 or 1/2?

My water blocks for cooling CPU, chipset and GPU will be available next week, I will post pictures when they're ready. I will also be making water cooled PSUs.

Thank you
Bruno Facca

toddalaska · 07-25-2002, 01:25 AM

I know i would like an effective retention clip that does noe require the 4 screws technique.

I would also like it to concentrate on even pressure, my current retention setup sucks and if i move the hoses to work on stuff theres a good chance the pressure of the hoses will move the wb.
(tilit it more like)

id like the stability of the 4 screw design and the ewase of removal of the basic t3prong prong clip.

Iknowthat might sound likea alot but you asked for ideal stuff.

kibbler · 07-25-2002, 02:21 AM

I really like the 4 bolt setup, since I'm a bit paranoid about trusting the well being of my $$$ worth of computer to a few small plastic tabs

Also, if more blocks use the 4 bolts, I think removing and switching blocks should be even easier than the clips, since the bolts are already attached securely to the mobo...

my 1$/50

myv65 · 07-25-2002, 08:20 AM

If you plan to market to AMD users, you had better have a good design using the plastic socket lugs. By all indications I have seen, the four holes surrounding the socket are going bye-bye. My Asus A7M266-D does not have these holes already.

You'll never get a clip that is easy to install, yet has the stiffness to counter the effect of hoses pulling on the block. It's simply a question of spring rate versus moment arms and the hoses will win. Keeping the overall block height to a minimum helps, but not nearly enough, especially with larger tubing. The answer to this little problem lies in proper routing/support of the tubing. Yeah, it can be a royal pain, but trying to address this with a spring clip is a losing proposition.

Bruno Facca · 07-25-2002, 09:22 AM

@toddalaska: Even pressure is definitely important, I already used retention mechanisms like yours and I know how bad it is.

@kibbler: I personally like the 4 holes myself, my concern is: this mechanism won't do for people who don't have the holes in their mobo (like myv65 said), it's also more dificult to set up.]

@myv65: AMD users are the most important to me, as P4 support my not come for the first revision of the block. Maybe a bolt like in #5 in my image?

Please give me some feedback on hose fittings diatemer too: 3/8 or 1/2?

Thanks
Bruno Facca

toddalaska · 07-25-2002, 10:00 AM

Bruno ID go 1/2 I have a 3/8 block now and it does quite well

but i always wonder what would the 1/2 block have doe. Im ordering a 1/2 block jsut to find out.

redleader · 07-25-2002, 11:59 AM

Quote:

If you plan to market to AMD users, you had better have a good design using the plastic socket lugs. By all indications I have seen, the four holes surrounding the socket are going bye-bye. My Asus A7M266-D does not have these holes already.

Meh Socket A is being phased out anyway, so its not too much of a concern. Aside from dual boards, I don't think we'll see too many more boards without the holes.

Quote:

Please give me some feedback on hose fittings diatemer too: 3/8 or 1/2?

I tried to answer this on ars, but their forum ate my post. Definately go 1/2, but also use 1/2NPT threads. I'm tired of seeing 1/4 and I suspect you could increase flow with 1/2. Not to mention allow me to mod your block with 5/8 barbs

myv65 · 07-25-2002, 12:17 PM

redleader,

It isn't simply the dual boards. I base this upon discussions with Bob Dyl, one of the more respected HSF reviewers around. He speaks directly with the likes of Swiftech, Thermalright, etc., and all have been told that the future socket designs will not incorporate holes around the socket.

Sure, this is AMD pushing this direction and AMD doesn't make the motherboards. Ultimately it is the choice of the mobo manufacturer, but when AMD leans on them they may cave. Better to prepare upfront than to be caught with pants down.

Only time will tell what transpires. . .

Oh yeah, I'll add another vote in the 1/2" camp.

redleader · 07-25-2002, 12:59 PM

Quote:

It isn't simply the dual boards. I base this upon discussions with Bob Dyl, one of the more respected HSF reviewers around. He speaks directly with the likes of Swiftech, Thermalright, etc., and all have been told that the future socket designs will not incorporate holes around the socket.

What future would that be? Current Kt333 boards are still in their prime and will be so into fall (with holes). And beyond that?

Hammer launches in Q4. Socket A will probably be EOLed in a year or so, with everyone in their right mind using Hammer (which does use holes) or the P4 (which also has them) well before then.

Seems to me the future that lacks holes consists of dirt cheap integrated boards for people who aren't willing to pay the extra few bucks for a hammer system. Even those would be quickly phased out in all but the very low end.

Exactly how many watercooled Gateway customers do you think are out there?

myv65 · 07-25-2002, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by redleader
everyone in their right mind using Hammer (which does use holes)

Are you certain? What is your source for this? I can only state what I have heard from what I feel is a reliable source.

BillA · 07-25-2002, 03:32 PM

The Inquirer had images of better than a half dozen different Hammer boards from the last big comp show

they all have holes, but quite different and farther 'out'
one pair on the CPU CL
or 4 at the corners
and all with a stamped metal stiffening plate on the backside of the mobo
(some boards had all 6 holes)

gonna be some huge hsfs

Bruno Facca · 07-25-2002, 11:49 PM

About the hose fittings I decided I will make 2 versions of the block, one for 3/8 and the other for 1/2 beacuse there was lots of requests for both of them, mostly for 1/2 but I tought what the hell, let's make them both!

Socket compatibility is becoming an issue here, a hard one to be solved, I'm getting requests for soo much sockets, on top of that I'm an AMD user since the K6 (now I have a XP 1700+) so it's been a while since I take a good look at a Intel PC, I will add support to P4 besides XP, I'm already studying it but I also would like your help, any information on intel's socket sizes and configurations are welcome.

I personally like the 4 hole mountings but besides socket A there seems to be a lot of other hole distances and places I have to support.

So far one thing is for sure (unless you give me some reason no to do it): The retention mechanism will be attached to the block, this way you can put strain in the hoses without sliding your block all around. Any reasons not to do this?

In case you're interested the price for the first 50 units will be USD$15 and a web site where you can order it is coming up in about 1 week from today.

Thanks everyone for your great feedback!
Bruno Facca

Volenti · 07-26-2002, 04:01 AM

Quote:

any information on intel's socket sizes and configurations are welcome.

The mobo holes that the plastic mount attaches to are, 77mm and 60mm (distance between centre of holes)

maximum dimentions to fit inside plastic mount; 83mm L x 67mm B x 45.5mm H, note, the intel heatsink has 2mm deep ledges machined out of the bottom to clear the plastic mounting lugs.(pic)
Also that height is from the bottom of the heatsink to the ledge that the mounting levers apply pressure on.

maximum dimentions with plastic mount removed; 76mm x 90mm

Bruno Facca · 07-26-2002, 11:41 AM

@Volenti: Thank you very much for the info, also please check your e-mail.

Bruno Facca

Bruno Facca · 07-27-2002, 12:26 AM

I made sketches of the block and of 2 retention mechanism ideas I had today, some detail is lacking in the block because I had no time for doing a better model in 3dsmax. Please give me some feedback.

If the image doesn't load go here http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/bjfacca/

Thanks
Bruno Facca

gone_fishin · 07-27-2002, 03:18 AM

I think if the springs don't go to maximum compression then the pull of the tubing can throw it off.

The new AMD hammer will allow massive space for waterblocks with mobo mount holes so I think socket lugs are out and the current overclocking boards until hammer arrives all allow the four mount holes also.

Bruno Facca · 07-27-2002, 09:52 AM

I'm thinking about 2 things: thick and hard springs for making a lot of pressure and make them attached to the top of the block, so it won't slide. I will make a retention mechanism for the holes too, that's for sure, I'm just working on this one first. I will be selling different tops, one with each retention mechanism.

Thanks
Bruno Facca

#Rotor · 07-27-2002, 11:16 AM

my opinion on springs.....it's a false sense of security, that gives the block the ability to rock on top of your core.... hard springs is as good as no springs at all, the pressure needed on the core, does not warrant that much torque, in fact, tightening the bolts on my block, I absolutely do not use anything other than my bare hands on the 8mm socket.....

Volenti · 07-27-2002, 08:00 PM

Quote:

my opinion on springs.....it's a false sense of security, that gives the block the ability to rock on top of your core.... hard springs is as good as no springs at all, the pressure needed on the core, does not warrant that much torque, in fact, tightening the bolts on my block, I absolutely do not use anything other than my bare hands on the 8mm socket.....

Yea i'd agree with that, you can also post into bios and use the temp monitor to adjust the pressure on each corner of the block untill you get the lowest temp.

Bruno Facca · 07-27-2002, 10:38 PM

After doing some testing and studying some more I totally agree with you.
Here is something I posted in another forum, I don't have the time to rewrite it so I will just paste it as it is:

I will make 2 tops available for the block, one for the mobo holes, wich will be compatible with AMD socket A processors (T-Bird, Duron and XP), intel 423, 478 (P4), 603 (XEON) and probably 604. The other top will be using the socket lugs and so far it's only compatible with socket A processors but I'm still working on it. Both tops are going to be "hard mounting", where you tighten stuff yourself, that was my idea in the beginning and I think it will be better for me to stick with it, if you are afraid of breaking your processor you should know it's not very easy to break a processor's core (I did a lot of testing on this using a XP processor that was not working, the core didn't get "crushed" until I screwed the bolt with *a lot* of force using pliers, I really think no one is capable of applying this kind of pressure on a bolt by hand. Also the contact boint between the block and the bolt will be larger than the bolt itself, maybe it will have a thin hard rubber sheet to prevent the block from sliding, it will also be right on top of the core. Some people told me that springs would help on distributing even pressure but thinking about it, springs may decrease pressure, as they probably can't put as much pressure as a large bolt, making the heat exchange a lot worst.

about the bios thing, that's the kind of smart and simple thing we usually don't think about

really good idea

Thanks
Bruno Facca

webmedic · 07-28-2002, 01:03 AM

I wouldn't mind testing one if you would like. I've got
2 swiftech blocks
1 dd maze 2
1 dd maze 3
1 #rotor's block
1 of my own
If fragenstien will let me I may be able to borrow his spiral and test it in the mix also.

Anyway all commers are welcome if you want it tested let me know.

It will end up on water-cool.com when I get done with it.

Bruno Facca · 08-03-2002, 11:50 PM

In case anyone is wondering i answered webmedic by e-mail.

The cast experiments begin tomorrow, the block will be ready dy middle this week, I will post the URL for my company web site as soon as it's up.

Thanks
Bruno Facca

KaKa · 08-04-2002, 12:03 PM

hey dood, nice blocks!!

have you decided wich clamp to use yet?
good prices and lets hope they perform as well as they look too!!

Id like to ask some info about them, so email our icq me if you like.. ok?

icq 73776566
kakarox@bol.com.br

mrbingley · 08-04-2002, 02:18 PM

For those of you with the larger diameter tubing has any of you given consideration to the use of a bracket similar to that used by the "Zalman Flower" heatsink ?
This bracket could positioned very nicely to support your tubing, either use cable ties or adapt the end of the bracket to suit.
As far as I know you can purchase the bracket seperately, so shouldn't cost too much to try and see what the results are like.

Cheers
Chris.

UaZaa · 08-05-2002, 01:12 AM

E ae.. alguma evolucao no projeto?
Entra em contato comigo para trocarmos uma ideia. Gostaria de obter algumas informacoes
uaza@watercooler.com.br / #22641447

[]'s

07-25-2002, 12:02 AM	#1
Bruno Facca Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 70	"The ideal water block" I'm designing a new water block (for commercializing), my goal is to maximize heat transfer inducing as much turbulent water flow as possible without creating too much flow resistance, I would like to know what are your thoughts on a couple of issues, please help me to give you what you want in a water block: 1 - How would you like a block that is one piece only (avoiding any leaks)? Do you feel the need to open your block for cleaning (or whatever) from time to time? 2 - What is your preferred retention system and why? I have some new designs here but there are no pictures available yet. The link below has images of some well known water blocks from various companies, they're all nice blocks, each one has it's own retention system. Please take a look and tell me wich one you like most and why, also any new ideas are welcome. I'm not going to copy anyone else's retention system, this post is just some research about the what the public want in a water block. http://paginas.terra.com.br/lazer/bj...aterblocks.htm 3 - Would you like the hose fittings to be 3/8 or 1/2? My water blocks for cooling CPU, chipset and GPU will be available next week, I will post pictures when they're ready. I will also be making water cooled PSUs. Thank you Bruno Facca Last edited by Bruno Facca; 07-25-2002 at 09:23 AM.

07-25-2002, 10:00 AM	#6
toddalaska Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ALASKA Posts: 66	Bruno ID go 1/2 I have a 3/8 block now and it does quite well but i always wonder what would the 1/2 block have doe. Im ordering a 1/2 block jsut to find out. __________________ Epox 8k5a3+ 2400+ @ 2340 (213*11.5) 512 corsair 3200 213 fsb turbo settings geforce 4 ti4200 -13619 3dmarks 2 ibm 120gxp raid 0 400 watts WINXP PRO BIG BLACK ANTEC CASE Water cooled tc4 - custom res and shroud by webmedic

07-27-2002, 12:26 AM	#15
Bruno Facca Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 70	I made sketches of the block and of 2 retention mechanism ideas I had today, some detail is lacking in the block because I had no time for doing a better model in 3dsmax. Please give me some feedback. If the image doesn't load go here http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/bjfacca/ Thanks Bruno Facca Last edited by Bruno Facca; 07-27-2002 at 12:29 AM.

07-27-2002, 11:16 AM	#18
#Rotor Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dione, sector 4s1256 Posts: 852	my opinion on springs.....it's a false sense of security, that gives the block the ability to rock on top of your core.... hard springs is as good as no springs at all, the pressure needed on the core, does not warrant that much torque, in fact, tightening the bolts on my block, I absolutely do not use anything other than my bare hands on the 8mm socket..... __________________ There is no Spoon....

07-28-2002, 01:03 AM	#21
webmedic Cooling Savant Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Cheney, Wa Posts: 367	I wouldn't mind testing one if you would like. I've got 2 swiftech blocks 1 dd maze 2 1 dd maze 3 1 #rotor's block 1 of my own If fragenstien will let me I may be able to borrow his spiral and test it in the mix also. Anyway all commers are welcome if you want it tested let me know. It will end up on water-cool.com when I get done with it. __________________ www.water-cool.com

07-25-2002, 01:25 AM	#2
toddalaska Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ALASKA Posts: 66	I know i would like an effective retention clip that does noe require the 4 screws technique. I would also like it to concentrate on even pressure, my current retention setup sucks and if i move the hoses to work on stuff theres a good chance the pressure of the hoses will move the wb. (tilit it more like) id like the stability of the 4 screw design and the ewase of removal of the basic t3prong prong clip. Iknowthat might sound likea alot but you asked for ideal stuff. __________________ Epox 8k5a3+ 2400+ @ 2340 (213*11.5) 512 corsair 3200 213 fsb turbo settings geforce 4 ti4200 -13619 3dmarks 2 ibm 120gxp raid 0 400 watts WINXP PRO BIG BLACK ANTEC CASE Water cooled tc4 - custom res and shroud by webmedic

07-25-2002, 02:21 AM	#3
kibbler Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 107	I really like the 4 bolt setup, since I'm a bit paranoid about trusting the well being of my $$$ worth of computer to a few small plastic tabs Also, if more blocks use the 4 bolts, I think removing and switching blocks should be even easier than the clips, since the bolts are already attached securely to the mobo... my 1$/50

07-25-2002, 08:20 AM	#4
myv65 Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: home Posts: 365	If you plan to market to AMD users, you had better have a good design using the plastic socket lugs. By all indications I have seen, the four holes surrounding the socket are going bye-bye. My Asus A7M266-D does not have these holes already. You'll never get a clip that is easy to install, yet has the stiffness to counter the effect of hoses pulling on the block. It's simply a question of spring rate versus moment arms and the hoses will win. Keeping the overall block height to a minimum helps, but not nearly enough, especially with larger tubing. The answer to this little problem lies in proper routing/support of the tubing. Yeah, it can be a royal pain, but trying to address this with a spring clip is a losing proposition.

07-25-2002, 09:22 AM	#5
Bruno Facca Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 70	@toddalaska: Even pressure is definitely important, I already used retention mechanisms like yours and I know how bad it is. @kibbler: I personally like the 4 holes myself, my concern is: this mechanism won't do for people who don't have the holes in their mobo (like myv65 said), it's also more dificult to set up.] @myv65: AMD users are the most important to me, as P4 support my not come for the first revision of the block. Maybe a bolt like in #5 in my image? Please give me some feedback on hose fittings diatemer too: 3/8 or 1/2? Thanks Bruno Facca

07-25-2002, 12:17 PM	#8
myv65 Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: home Posts: 365	redleader, It isn't simply the dual boards. I base this upon discussions with Bob Dyl, one of the more respected HSF reviewers around. He speaks directly with the likes of Swiftech, Thermalright, etc., and all have been told that the future socket designs will not incorporate holes around the socket. Sure, this is AMD pushing this direction and AMD doesn't make the motherboards. Ultimately it is the choice of the mobo manufacturer, but when AMD leans on them they may cave. Better to prepare upfront than to be caught with pants down. Only time will tell what transpires. . . Oh yeah, I'll add another vote in the 1/2" camp.

07-25-2002, 03:32 PM	#11
BillA CoolingWorks Tech Guy Formerly "Unregistered" Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Posts: 2,371.493,106 Posts: 4,440	The Inquirer had images of better than a half dozen different Hammer boards from the last big comp show they all have holes, but quite different and farther 'out' one pair on the CPU CL or 4 at the corners and all with a stamped metal stiffening plate on the backside of the mobo (some boards had all 6 holes) gonna be some huge hsfs

07-25-2002, 11:49 PM	#12
Bruno Facca Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 70	About the hose fittings I decided I will make 2 versions of the block, one for 3/8 and the other for 1/2 beacuse there was lots of requests for both of them, mostly for 1/2 but I tought what the hell, let's make them both! Socket compatibility is becoming an issue here, a hard one to be solved, I'm getting requests for soo much sockets, on top of that I'm an AMD user since the K6 (now I have a XP 1700+) so it's been a while since I take a good look at a Intel PC, I will add support to P4 besides XP, I'm already studying it but I also would like your help, any information on intel's socket sizes and configurations are welcome. I personally like the 4 hole mountings but besides socket A there seems to be a lot of other hole distances and places I have to support. So far one thing is for sure (unless you give me some reason no to do it): The retention mechanism will be attached to the block, this way you can put strain in the hoses without sliding your block all around. Any reasons not to do this? In case you're interested the price for the first 50 units will be USD$15 and a web site where you can order it is coming up in about 1 week from today. Thanks everyone for your great feedback! Bruno Facca

07-26-2002, 11:41 AM	#14
Bruno Facca Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 70	@Volenti: Thank you very much for the info, also please check your e-mail. Bruno Facca

07-27-2002, 03:18 AM	#16
gone_fishin Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Da UP Posts: 517	I think if the springs don't go to maximum compression then the pull of the tubing can throw it off. The new AMD hammer will allow massive space for waterblocks with mobo mount holes so I think socket lugs are out and the current overclocking boards until hammer arrives all allow the four mount holes also.

07-27-2002, 09:52 AM	#17
Bruno Facca Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 70	I'm thinking about 2 things: thick and hard springs for making a lot of pressure and make them attached to the top of the block, so it won't slide. I will make a retention mechanism for the holes too, that's for sure, I'm just working on this one first. I will be selling different tops, one with each retention mechanism. Thanks Bruno Facca

07-27-2002, 10:38 PM	#20
Bruno Facca Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 70	After doing some testing and studying some more I totally agree with you. Here is something I posted in another forum, I don't have the time to rewrite it so I will just paste it as it is: I will make 2 tops available for the block, one for the mobo holes, wich will be compatible with AMD socket A processors (T-Bird, Duron and XP), intel 423, 478 (P4), 603 (XEON) and probably 604. The other top will be using the socket lugs and so far it's only compatible with socket A processors but I'm still working on it. Both tops are going to be "hard mounting", where you tighten stuff yourself, that was my idea in the beginning and I think it will be better for me to stick with it, if you are afraid of breaking your processor you should know it's not very easy to break a processor's core (I did a lot of testing on this using a XP processor that was not working, the core didn't get "crushed" until I screwed the bolt with a lot of force using pliers, I really think no one is capable of applying this kind of pressure on a bolt by hand. Also the contact boint between the block and the bolt will be larger than the bolt itself, maybe it will have a thin hard rubber sheet to prevent the block from sliding, it will also be right on top of the core. Some people told me that springs would help on distributing even pressure but thinking about it, springs may decrease pressure, as they probably can't put as much pressure as a large bolt, making the heat exchange a lot worst. about the bios thing, that's the kind of smart and simple thing we usually don't think about really good idea Thanks Bruno Facca

08-03-2002, 11:50 PM	#22
Bruno Facca Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 70	In case anyone is wondering i answered webmedic by e-mail. The cast experiments begin tomorrow, the block will be ready dy middle this week, I will post the URL for my company web site as soon as it's up. Thanks Bruno Facca

08-04-2002, 12:03 PM	#23
KaKa Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Brasil - RJ Posts: 2	hey dood, nice blocks!! have you decided wich clamp to use yet? good prices and lets hope they perform as well as they look too!! Id like to ask some info about them, so email our icq me if you like.. ok? icq 73776566 kakarox@bol.com.br Last edited by KaKa; 08-05-2002 at 11:59 AM.

08-04-2002, 02:18 PM	#24
mrbingley Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: West Yorkshire. UK. Posts: 39	For those of you with the larger diameter tubing has any of you given consideration to the use of a bracket similar to that used by the "Zalman Flower" heatsink ? This bracket could positioned very nicely to support your tubing, either use cable ties or adapt the end of the bracket to suit. As far as I know you can purchase the bracket seperately, so shouldn't cost too much to try and see what the results are like. Cheers Chris. __________________ Epox 8K3A+ Athlon XP 2000+ 256 MB generic RAM GF2 MX twinview Home made water cooling setup

08-05-2002, 01:12 AM	#25
UaZaa Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 2	Re: "The ideal water block" E ae.. alguma evolucao no projeto? Entra em contato comigo para trocarmos uma ideia. Gostaria de obter algumas informacoes uaza@watercooler.com.br / #22641447 []'s __________________ -25c Phase Change Chiller XP @2600+ / EPoX 8k3a+ i still cant figure out what happened with my login Last edited by UaZaa; 08-05-2002 at 01:18 AM.

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