Received my Maze3 yesterday, not quite satisfied. - Page 6

ECUPirate · 04-20-2002, 07:38 PM

yeah, but don't the BI, like most heater cores, have aluminum fins in front of the copper wires? These seem to lack the fins.

Jessfm · 04-20-2002, 07:50 PM

100% copper
I never touched a blackice -so i would not know.
As for design, they are to my drawings 100% copper core (brass caps). The channels are covered in solder -hence the silver effect.
No barbs fitted, as they have 1/4" BSPT threaded inserts.

ECUPirate · 04-20-2002, 07:54 PM

Is it copper fins, then wires, or just copper wires?

also, so you drew up the design, and had someone else manufacture them? How does one begin such a product? Suppose I had a fantastic idea for a new design, etc. I haven't the equipment or training to produce a heater core, WB, whatever. How does it all work?

Jessfm · 04-20-2002, 08:09 PM

It took me personaly months to track back to a specialist manufacturer.
It might be easyer to explain how we get them made with a picture.

You need to primarly find a heater core/radiator manufacturer that will 1:talk to you 2:help with final design.

You will need to submit a rough drawing with dimensions, as you can see in the picture, each unit is made up from various parts.
The cheapest option is to ask them to source std parts( core fins/end tanks/channel etc) that are as close to your specs as possible.
From there you do very little - they make up a development unit , and send it to you for approval.
It takes along time (well for me it did) to find a Co. willing to & culd do what I wanted.

ECUPirate · 04-20-2002, 08:16 PM

thx... looks like you're using solid fins rather than wires.. interesting choice. Sure looked like wires...

What about cost? What would one of these manufacturers charge for producing an experimental unit? Then, what would they charge for duplicates? Oh, and how much turnaround time?

I'm not trying to get your trade secrets... it's just a matter of personal curiosity. I'm an accountant, and these are questions I ponder....

Jessfm · 04-20-2002, 08:18 PM

R&D is an expensive proccess, turn around time, 2months here.
We talking about different sides of the pond though, so I realy can't speak for "over there".
Lets just say, they look afterthemslfs, it would make it very uneconomical to just have 1 rad developed.

ECUPirate · 04-20-2002, 08:21 PM

Ballpark figures... how uneconomical? If you could buy a decent rad of the shelf for 30 pounds, now much to get one custom made?

Pardon the incessant questions..

Jessfm · 04-20-2002, 08:34 PM

So I guess your talking like-4-like.

So a unit cost us £30 to buy from a shelf.
To have a unit drawn & designed from scratch for a one off design, your looking at around 10x.
They don't like gearing up to run 1 type of unit off a line.
You pay a setup charge if your making 1 or 100, same cost. After that , their is materials & labour.
more you run off per batch = better price per unit.

ECUPirate · 04-20-2002, 09:30 PM

interesting... thanks. I guess the same thing would hold true with regards to prototype waterblocks, etc. Seems like those would be easy to mill.... Hmm..

Stylerod · 04-21-2002, 03:44 PM

Just as an FYI. I decided to run my Maze3 even with the 6 cracks since I am still waiting for my replacement. I ran it for 24 hours outside the case with no leaks, and have been running it about 12 hours in my case with no leaks. Just not real happy with my temps. I have a XP1800 running at 155mHz FSB, 1.85 volts, and under load it's about 43 degrees cent. Without load about 38. Only about 6 degrees better than with my Silver Mountain heat sink and 7200rpm fan (but a lot quieter!!!).

Jim · 04-21-2002, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stylerod
Just as an FYI. I decided to run my Maze3 even with the 6 cracks since I am still waiting for my replacement. I ran it for 24 hours outside the case with no leaks, and have been running it about 12 hours in my case with no leaks. Just not real happy with my temps. I have a XP1800 running at 155mHz FSB, 1.85 volts, and under load it's about 43 degrees cent. Without load about 38. Only about 6 degrees better than with my Silver Mountain heat sink and 7200rpm fan (but a lot quieter!!!).

I would have thought the temps would be lower. What pump, radiator and tubing size if you don't mind? May still have some air in the system too.
Jim

EMC2 · 04-21-2002, 06:38 PM

Jessm - do you have it constructed with the fins silver brazed to the tubes or ?

Jessfm · 04-21-2002, 06:41 PM

Yes , the fins are soldered to the tubes.

EMC2 · 04-21-2002, 06:50 PM

So they are soldered, not brazed? And with what? (copper/lead, tin/lead, etc.)

Jessfm · 04-21-2002, 07:11 PM

I will have to ask - Brazing to be is not with solder - possibly we are talking about different things.I will try and find out tom for you.
what is this, a zillion questions?

ECUPirate · 04-21-2002, 08:21 PM

hehe.. no.. just a bunch of computer buffs trying to be as knowledgeable about a subject as possible..

zervun · 04-21-2002, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jessfm
I will have to ask - Brazing to be is not with solder - possibly we are talking about different things.I will try and find out tom for you.
what is this, a zillion questions?

Also with the information you have provided, going out on a limb to help us with this and explain your work we garnish much more respect for your company. My next watercooling setup I will probably look at your site first for =).

Jessfm · 04-21-2002, 09:46 PM

Well thats very kind

But doubtful it would make sense for you to try and buy from me.
1: I don't ship outside the U.K( although I can take $$'s)
2: The cost for you guys would be crazy.

End of day - Im still an enthuasiast myself.

Joe · 04-21-2002, 09:46 PM

Ummm how bout we keep this thread on topic. if you want to talk about the other stuff please take it to a new thread. ( I am talking about Jessfm's nice hijacking of the thread from talking about the Maze3 issues to pimping his wares

)

Stylerod · 04-21-2002, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim

I would have thought the temps would be lower. What pump, radiator and tubing size if you don't mind? May still have some air in the system too.
Jim

I'm using a CPUfx 500gph pump, black ice extreme and 3/8ths tubing.

Brad · 04-22-2002, 03:57 AM

damnit Joe, stop interupting threads, geeez :P

EMC2 · 04-22-2002, 11:08 AM

Jessm - no, a zillion and 1

Most brazing compounds I know of are silver based, but still are usually called "solders" :shrug: Reason I asked though is brazing provides a better thermal and mechanical connection than soldering and if they are soldered and not brazed, I was curious about what they used

(glad I'm not a cat, I would have been dead long ago from my curiosity streak, lol)

Speaking of brazing, if you didn't care about having the top of the Maze3 removable, brazing would be a great way to put on a copper top (hehe, on topic again)

DigitalChaos · 04-22-2002, 12:33 PM

i got my maze3 on friday. it uses the buttonhead bolts, the barbs have a small bit of clear silicon to seal them. no cracks anywhere on the block, and it looks GREAT

i can tighten down the bolts pretty good, and i dont feel like anything will crack. i lapped the block for quite a while (1500 grit finish) while the barbs and everything were still on. so there was plenty of pushes and pulls that would happen to the barbs, and still no cracks.
i mounted the block and then put the silicone tubing on (3/8" on 1/2" fittings) and the barbs feel very sturdy, and there are no signs of cracks.

if there is any worry for cracking, i would have to say that the barbs would have the most leverage to allow for it. the bolts seem like you could get full compression (touching the copper) without a problem. So i guess you could get some nylon barbs and put them in if you are really nervous, but im fine with brass.

Sherlock · 04-22-2002, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EMC2
Jessm - no, a zillion and 1 Most brazing compounds I know of are silver based, but still are usually called "solders" :shrug: Reason I asked though is brazing provides a better thermal and mechanical connection than soldering and if they are soldered and not brazed, I was curious about what they used (glad I'm not a cat, I would have been dead long ago from my curiosity streak, lol)

Speaking of brazing, if you didn't care about having the top of the Maze3 removable, brazing would be a great way to put on a copper top (hehe, on topic again)

Regarding the themal conductivity, What about silvercore solder; I believe that is silver based. I've worked with both kinds of torching (brazing and soldering) and brazing is more difficult and requires alot more heat. Are you pretty sure regular soldering of copper to copper wouldn't be durable enough? Solder seems like it would be strong enough in this application.

Maybe if they prepared their mating surfaces well. Just curious

.

Jim · 04-22-2002, 02:08 PM

I never heard of brazing used on copper. Brazing is done on ferrous metals. Brazing is kind of a way to solder steel in that you are adding a bonding material (brazing rod) to the pieces being joined rather than melting each of joined pieces at the joint at the same moment while adding a fluxed filler material. Flux to keep impurities out of course. Where in MIG welding the gas shroud around the weld point prevents impurities from forming. (Metal Inert Gas = MIG) Tungsten Inert Gas, is the puppy that welds aluminum. (TIG)

Solder is plenty strong for the blocks just getting an even heat across the large surfaces is something I have not done or needed to do before.

Jim

04-20-2002, 07:38 PM	#126
ECUPirate Hottest Stank of them All Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington, DC area Posts: 533	yeah, but don't the BI, like most heater cores, have aluminum fins in front of the copper wires? These seem to lack the fins. __________________ Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled... 486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course 16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem Windows XP (think about it) Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan

04-20-2002, 07:54 PM	#128
ECUPirate Hottest Stank of them All Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington, DC area Posts: 533	Is it copper fins, then wires, or just copper wires? also, so you drew up the design, and had someone else manufacture them? How does one begin such a product? Suppose I had a fantastic idea for a new design, etc. I haven't the equipment or training to produce a heater core, WB, whatever. How does it all work? __________________ Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled... 486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course 16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem Windows XP (think about it) Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan

04-20-2002, 08:16 PM	#130
ECUPirate Hottest Stank of them All Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington, DC area Posts: 533	thx... looks like you're using solid fins rather than wires.. interesting choice. Sure looked like wires... What about cost? What would one of these manufacturers charge for producing an experimental unit? Then, what would they charge for duplicates? Oh, and how much turnaround time? I'm not trying to get your trade secrets... it's just a matter of personal curiosity. I'm an accountant, and these are questions I ponder.... __________________ Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled... 486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course 16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem Windows XP (think about it) Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan

04-20-2002, 08:21 PM	#132
ECUPirate Hottest Stank of them All Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington, DC area Posts: 533	Ballpark figures... how uneconomical? If you could buy a decent rad of the shelf for 30 pounds, now much to get one custom made? Pardon the incessant questions.. __________________ Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled... 486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course 16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem Windows XP (think about it) Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan

04-20-2002, 09:30 PM	#134
ECUPirate Hottest Stank of them All Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington, DC area Posts: 533	interesting... thanks. I guess the same thing would hold true with regards to prototype waterblocks, etc. Seems like those would be easy to mill.... Hmm.. __________________ Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled... 486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course 16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem Windows XP (think about it) Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan

04-20-2002, 07:50 PM	#127
Jessfm Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 110	100% copper I never touched a blackice -so i would not know. As for design, they are to my drawings 100% copper core (brass caps). The channels are covered in solder -hence the silver effect. No barbs fitted, as they have 1/4" BSPT threaded inserts.

04-20-2002, 08:09 PM	#129
Jessfm Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 110	It took me personaly months to track back to a specialist manufacturer. It might be easyer to explain how we get them made with a picture. You need to primarly find a heater core/radiator manufacturer that will 1:talk to you 2:help with final design. You will need to submit a rough drawing with dimensions, as you can see in the picture, each unit is made up from various parts. The cheapest option is to ask them to source std parts( core fins/end tanks/channel etc) that are as close to your specs as possible. From there you do very little - they make up a development unit , and send it to you for approval. It takes along time (well for me it did) to find a Co. willing to & culd do what I wanted.

04-20-2002, 08:18 PM	#131
Jessfm Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 110	R&D is an expensive proccess, turn around time, 2months here. We talking about different sides of the pond though, so I realy can't speak for "over there". Lets just say, they look afterthemslfs, it would make it very uneconomical to just have 1 rad developed.

04-20-2002, 08:34 PM	#133
Jessfm Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 110	So I guess your talking like-4-like. So a unit cost us £30 to buy from a shelf. To have a unit drawn & designed from scratch for a one off design, your looking at around 10x. They don't like gearing up to run 1 type of unit off a line. You pay a setup charge if your making 1 or 100, same cost. After that , their is materials & labour. more you run off per batch = better price per unit.

04-21-2002, 03:44 PM	#135
Stylerod Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 8	Just as an FYI. I decided to run my Maze3 even with the 6 cracks since I am still waiting for my replacement. I ran it for 24 hours outside the case with no leaks, and have been running it about 12 hours in my case with no leaks. Just not real happy with my temps. I have a XP1800 running at 155mHz FSB, 1.85 volts, and under load it's about 43 degrees cent. Without load about 38. Only about 6 degrees better than with my Silver Mountain heat sink and 7200rpm fan (but a lot quieter!!!).

04-21-2002, 06:38 PM	#137
EMC2 Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dark Side of the Moon Posts: 365	Jessm - do you have it constructed with the fins silver brazed to the tubes or ?

04-21-2002, 06:41 PM	#138
Jessfm Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 110	Yes , the fins are soldered to the tubes.

04-21-2002, 06:50 PM	#139
EMC2 Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dark Side of the Moon Posts: 365	So they are soldered, not brazed? And with what? (copper/lead, tin/lead, etc.)

04-21-2002, 07:11 PM	#140
Jessfm Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 110	I will have to ask - Brazing to be is not with solder - possibly we are talking about different things.I will try and find out tom for you. what is this, a zillion questions?

04-21-2002, 08:21 PM	#141
ECUPirate Hottest Stank of them All Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington, DC area Posts: 533	hehe.. no.. just a bunch of computer buffs trying to be as knowledgeable about a subject as possible.. __________________ Does a radioactive cat have 18 half lifes? --Kenny my pimpin' rig: ...previously poorly cooled... 486DX-2 66mhz @ 75mhz, 4Mb ram, shared, 256Mb hard drive Onboard VGA, watercooled, of course 16-color monitor, labtec speakers, 28kbs USRobotics modem Windows XP (think about it) Maze 3, DDen GF3 block, Eheim 1250, econoline van HC, 1/2" hose w/ 5/8" fittings Comair 172mm fan

04-21-2002, 09:46 PM	#143
Jessfm Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 110	Well thats very kind But doubtful it would make sense for you to try and buy from me. 1: I don't ship outside the U.K( although I can take $$'s) 2: The cost for you guys would be crazy. End of day - Im still an enthuasiast myself.

04-21-2002, 09:46 PM	#144
Joe The Pro/Life Support System Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 4,041	Ummm how bout we keep this thread on topic. if you want to talk about the other stuff please take it to a new thread. ( I am talking about Jessfm's nice hijacking of the thread from talking about the Maze3 issues to pimping his wares ) __________________ Joe - I only take this hat off for one thing... ProCooling archive curator and dusty skeleton.

04-22-2002, 03:57 AM	#146
Brad Thermophile Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nuu Zeeelin Posts: 3,175	damnit Joe, stop interupting threads, geeez :P __________________ 2x P3 1100's at 1400, Abit VP6, 2x Corsair 256mb PC150 sticks, 20gb 'cuda ATA-III, 2x 40gb 'cuda ATA-IV in raid 0. 20" Trinitron. No fans 2x 2400+ at 2288mhz (16.0 x 143), Iwill MPX2, 2x Kingmax PC-3200 256mb sticks, 4x 20gb 60gxp in Raid 5 on a Promise SX6000. Asus Ti4200 320/630. Cooled by Water

04-22-2002, 11:08 AM	#147
EMC2 Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Dark Side of the Moon Posts: 365	Puts a blind fold on Joe for a sec Jessm - no, a zillion and 1 Most brazing compounds I know of are silver based, but still are usually called "solders" :shrug: Reason I asked though is brazing provides a better thermal and mechanical connection than soldering and if they are soldered and not brazed, I was curious about what they used (glad I'm not a cat, I would have been dead long ago from my curiosity streak, lol) Speaking of brazing, if you didn't care about having the top of the Maze3 removable, brazing would be a great way to put on a copper top (hehe, on topic again)

04-22-2002, 12:33 PM	#148
DigitalChaos Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waukesha, Wi Posts: 698	i got my maze3 on friday. it uses the buttonhead bolts, the barbs have a small bit of clear silicon to seal them. no cracks anywhere on the block, and it looks GREAT i can tighten down the bolts pretty good, and i dont feel like anything will crack. i lapped the block for quite a while (1500 grit finish) while the barbs and everything were still on. so there was plenty of pushes and pulls that would happen to the barbs, and still no cracks. i mounted the block and then put the silicone tubing on (3/8" on 1/2" fittings) and the barbs feel very sturdy, and there are no signs of cracks. if there is any worry for cracking, i would have to say that the barbs would have the most leverage to allow for it. the bolts seem like you could get full compression (touching the copper) without a problem. So i guess you could get some nylon barbs and put them in if you are really nervous, but im fine with brass.

04-22-2002, 02:08 PM	#150
Jim Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 389	I never heard of brazing used on copper. Brazing is done on ferrous metals. Brazing is kind of a way to solder steel in that you are adding a bonding material (brazing rod) to the pieces being joined rather than melting each of joined pieces at the joint at the same moment while adding a fluxed filler material. Flux to keep impurities out of course. Where in MIG welding the gas shroud around the weld point prevents impurities from forming. (Metal Inert Gas = MIG) Tungsten Inert Gas, is the puppy that welds aluminum. (TIG) Solder is plenty strong for the blocks just getting an even heat across the large surfaces is something I have not done or needed to do before. Jim

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