MAG heat ratio

Dave · 04-18-2005, 05:10 PM

I keep getting email asking about heat dissipation ratio with delrin case. Not sure what everyone is concerned about, but I had time last night to run some tests, which was not easy with only 8 watts to work with.

As best I can tell at near zero air flow around the MAG case, it is about 1-2 watts, the rest I believe is tranfered to air by the AL drive case. Please note the motor is incased with thermal conductive potting compound.

I ran this test using a restricting value to simulate a common micro channel block then measured the deta T in reserve over 4 hours.

I had the reserve in a insulting case, and this is the best test I can think of.

If someone has another method I will re-run. Hope I replied to all that emailed.

Dave

jaydee · 04-18-2005, 07:50 PM

The pump is only 8watts and they want to know the heat dissipation?

DryFire · 04-18-2005, 08:05 PM

even if all 8 watters were dumped in the loop would that even be noticable?

maxSaleen · 04-18-2005, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DryFire

even if all 8 watters were dumped in the loop would that even be noticable?

Nope. Consider the heat capacity of water and the over capacity of most radiators and you have almost no increase in temperature. I'd do the maths but I'm too lazy. I'm sure that Ph did some work on this in his articles.

Dave · 04-19-2005, 07:00 AM

"The pump is only 8watts and they want to know the heat dissipation?"

That was what I don't understand.

Even better try and figure out a set up to measure what I suspected would be a max of 4 watts.

C-Systems is paying me for support, so I try and do something for them

bobkoure · 04-19-2005, 07:53 AM

By heat dissipation do they mean the energy that does not become pump heat?
Here's a likely flawed, but easier, way to get pump heat.
Get an insulated reservoir (jug in an ice chest had ought to do it - maybe use a styrofoam chest so you can easily poke holes for hoses).
Pump goes on the outside, but very close to minimize heat loss through hoses. A measured amount of water goes in the system, at room temp. Run system for an hour (or six - whatever seems appropriate - just run long enough for an "easy to measure" heat rise).
Water temp rise times water mass divided by time had ought to be your pump heat (just like a dyno). Energy input minus pump heat had ought to be dissipation (where else is it going to go?).
You'd need some sort of resistance in the line to get the pump doing a "typical" amount of work.

Speaking of resistance, a long time ago I was at the Moto Guzzi factory. They had the dyno there plumbed to fountains in the courtyard so you could always tell when they were engine testing. Of course, they couldn't have been using measured temp rise. I think they'd already calculated the energy required to push the water jets to different heights. I asked, but my Italian wasn't (and sadly still isn't) good. Beautiful place for a ...hmmm... "factory" isn't exactly the right word - "large series of workshops" is maybe more like it - Guzzis were hand-built the same as Vincents once were - only with post WWII equipment

Dave · 04-19-2005, 08:33 AM

Bob, please read again, this is what I just did

bobkoure · 04-19-2005, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

Bob, please read again, this is what I just did

Ooohhh... errrr... what can I say but d'oh! (and sorry).

Arivaldo · 04-20-2005, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

I keep getting email asking about heat dissipation ratio with delrin case. Not sure what everyone is concerned about ...

Dave,
I think they want to compare heat dissipation with Delrin Case X Al Case. So you will need to get both numbers at same situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

...As best I can tell at near zero air flow around the MAG case, it is about 1-2 watts, the rest I believe is tranfered to air by the AL drive case...

For real world comparison i think you must use near real world situation. The point is how material case changes affect heat dissipation?. By this way you must use a regular air flow (a PSU with its regular exhaust fan sounds nice). Obvious reserve must be insulated for accuracy and only pumps will be exposed to air flow.
Hope i did help a little bit.

AngryAlpaca · 04-20-2005, 05:11 PM

Well, most of the time, the pump is in an out-of-the-way place with no airflow.

Dave · 04-20-2005, 05:14 PM

I'll run it again, with the AL pump chamber case, but likely no difference since the AL case has a plastic insert.

At 1-2 watts I think you guys are over thinking the issue

jaydee · 04-20-2005, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arivaldo

Dave,
I think they want to compare heat dissipation with Delrin Case X Al Case. So you will need to get both numbers at same situation.

For real world comparison i think you must use near real world situation. The point is how material case changes affect heat dissipation?. By this way you must use a regular air flow (a PSU with its regular exhaust fan sounds nice). Obvious reserve must be insulated for accuracy and only pumps will be exposed to air flow.
Hope i did help a little bit.

It is 8 watts max. Who cares and why? 8 watts is not going to make a measurable difference in any cooling loop no matter how bad it is.

Arivaldo · 04-21-2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

Well, most of the time, the pump is in an out-of-the-way place with no airflow.

I think that, most of the time, pumps are located in pc case just behind air take-in (where is normally put hd's).

bobkoure · 04-21-2005, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee116

It is 8 watts max. Who cares and why?

Oh yeah? Well, I can get more angels balanced on the head of a pin than you can and so there!

Medieval philosophers spent a lot of time on that one - no reason we can't go on about 8W...

Arivaldo · 04-21-2005, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee116

It is 8 watts max. Who cares and why?

I don't care, but C-Systems costumers are e-mailing Dave about that and he's been paid for support, as he said already.

jaydee · 04-21-2005, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arivaldo

I don't care, but C-Systems costumers are e-mailing Dave about that and he's been paid for support, as he said already.

Then why reply if you have no answer to my question. :shrug:

Sure we can go on about 8 watts but why? We are cooling systems that put out over 100watts with just the CPU only. You can't measure the difference between 100watts and 108watts without NASA grade equipment.

The only thing I could possibly think of is these people think the aluminum head is actually acting as a radiator itself disapating heat not only from the pump but the loop aswell. :shrug: If that is the case they should request a aluminum with fins milled into it.

Just baffles me as to why such a question exists though. Just isn't relevant to anything.

Dave · 04-22-2005, 06:15 AM

I don't mind Jay, but unlikely to change results.

More likely any change will just be error.

At 2 watts, very hard too measure

floflooo · 04-25-2005, 01:21 AM

I have heard of some overheating on the CSP750. I would guess that's why the questions popped up!
Definitely, 8 W are not going to make a difference in a watercooling circuit... if you assume that all the heat dissipated by the pump goes in the watercooling loop!!!

csimon · 05-16-2005, 10:28 PM

This should probably be another thread but what's the flow rate of the MAG @ 8w?

jaydee · 05-16-2005, 10:50 PM

http://www.dtekcustoms.com/index.asp...rodID=148&HS=1

Quote:

Performance

Flow @ 12.5volts : 135-140 GPH (492-529 LPH)

Head @ 12.5volts: 7.5-7.9 ft (90-95”) (3.3 psi)

Watts @ 12.5 Volts: Max 8.3

Case Dimensions: 2.1” x 2.1” x 1.75"

csimon · 05-16-2005, 11:57 PM

ah thanks I missed that!

Risky · 05-17-2005, 02:08 AM

For some reasaon I'd rather hear that the 8W were going into the water rather than cooking the electrics. Otherwise w'd be bolting heatsinks onto the outside of the AL case to cool it down.

04-18-2005, 05:10 PM	#1
Dave Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 260	MAG heat ratio I keep getting email asking about heat dissipation ratio with delrin case. Not sure what everyone is concerned about, but I had time last night to run some tests, which was not easy with only 8 watts to work with. As best I can tell at near zero air flow around the MAG case, it is about 1-2 watts, the rest I believe is tranfered to air by the AL drive case. Please note the motor is incased with thermal conductive potting compound. I ran this test using a restricting value to simulate a common micro channel block then measured the deta T in reserve over 4 hours. I had the reserve in a insulting case, and this is the best test I can think of. If someone has another method I will re-run. Hope I replied to all that emailed. Dave Last edited by Dave; 04-18-2005 at 05:25 PM.

04-18-2005, 07:50 PM	#2
jaydee Put up or Shut Up Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 6,506	The pump is only 8watts and they want to know the heat dissipation?

04-18-2005, 08:05 PM	#3
DryFire Cooling Savant Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 148	even if all 8 watters were dumped in the loop would that even be noticable?

04-19-2005, 07:00 AM	#5
Dave Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 260	"The pump is only 8watts and they want to know the heat dissipation?" That was what I don't understand. Even better try and figure out a set up to measure what I suspected would be a max of 4 watts. C-Systems is paying me for support, so I try and do something for them

04-19-2005, 07:53 AM	#6
bobkoure Cooling Savant Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA - Boston area Posts: 798	By heat dissipation do they mean the energy that does not become pump heat? Here's a likely flawed, but easier, way to get pump heat. Get an insulated reservoir (jug in an ice chest had ought to do it - maybe use a styrofoam chest so you can easily poke holes for hoses). Pump goes on the outside, but very close to minimize heat loss through hoses. A measured amount of water goes in the system, at room temp. Run system for an hour (or six - whatever seems appropriate - just run long enough for an "easy to measure" heat rise). Water temp rise times water mass divided by time had ought to be your pump heat (just like a dyno). Energy input minus pump heat had ought to be dissipation (where else is it going to go?). You'd need some sort of resistance in the line to get the pump doing a "typical" amount of work. Speaking of resistance, a long time ago I was at the Moto Guzzi factory. They had the dyno there plumbed to fountains in the courtyard so you could always tell when they were engine testing. Of course, they couldn't have been using measured temp rise. I think they'd already calculated the energy required to push the water jets to different heights. I asked, but my Italian wasn't (and sadly still isn't) good. Beautiful place for a ...hmmm... "factory" isn't exactly the right word - "large series of workshops" is maybe more like it - Guzzis were hand-built the same as Vincents once were - only with post WWII equipment

04-19-2005, 08:33 AM	#7
Dave Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 260	Bob, please read again, this is what I just did

04-20-2005, 05:11 PM	#10
AngryAlpaca Cooling Savant Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 631	Well, most of the time, the pump is in an out-of-the-way place with no airflow.

04-20-2005, 05:14 PM	#11
Dave Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 260	I'll run it again, with the AL pump chamber case, but likely no difference since the AL case has a plastic insert. At 1-2 watts I think you guys are over thinking the issue

04-22-2005, 06:15 AM	#17
Dave Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 260	I don't mind Jay, but unlikely to change results. More likely any change will just be error. At 2 watts, very hard too measure

04-25-2005, 01:21 AM	#18
floflooo Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: San Diego, USA Posts: 12	I have heard of some overheating on the CSP750. I would guess that's why the questions popped up! Definitely, 8 W are not going to make a difference in a watercooling circuit... if you assume that all the heat dissipated by the pump goes in the watercooling loop!!!

05-16-2005, 10:28 PM	#19
csimon Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Acadiana Posts: 99	This should probably be another thread but what's the flow rate of the MAG @ 8w?

05-16-2005, 11:57 PM	#21
csimon Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Acadiana Posts: 99	ah thanks I missed that!

05-17-2005, 02:08 AM	#22
Risky Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London Posts: 96	For some reasaon I'd rather hear that the 8W were going into the water rather than cooking the electrics. Otherwise w'd be bolting heatsinks onto the outside of the AL case to cool it down.

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