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Unread 03-14-2004, 02:32 PM   #1
AntiBling
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Default An Open Letter to "Feathers"

Hi feathers
As those who post here are no doubt aware, you are very much a proponent of a cooling system that includes the use of peltier devices. To spare you the trouble of posting to thread after thread to talk about peltiers, regardless of the thread topic, let me just announce to everyone here

FEATHERS LIKES PELTIERS!!!!

HE THINKS WATERCOOLING WITHOUT THEM "SUCKS"!!!!

There ya go buddy, now you wont have to post to every thread with the same message.
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Unread 03-14-2004, 02:48 PM   #2
feathers
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Thank you..

But I would just like to add that Watercooling without a peltier SUX!!!


Feathers likes peltiers.

(If it's not extreme-cooling then it's just not cool).
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Unread 03-14-2004, 03:15 PM   #3
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Also use the freaking edit button instead of replying multiple times in a row to jack your post count up (as there is no other reason to do that).
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Unread 03-14-2004, 03:22 PM   #4
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Not really interested in post count. It's not a competition is it?
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Unread 03-14-2004, 03:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feathers
Not really interested in post count. It's not a competition is it?
Nope. No reason to reply multiple times in a row either. Replying isn't a competition either.


Joe had the post count removed untill he updated to vB3. Was kinda nice....
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Unread 03-14-2004, 03:31 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feathers
Water is only effective when you use it with peltier cooling. The two go together very well.
An interesting assertion. Too bad it was made as an off topic troll in the heatsink/fan cooling forum. Having an opinion does not make it okay to disregard common forum etiquette.

Lurk more. You might pick up on something before you make a fool out of yourself. It's worked for me.

Feathers, after checking out your website, your motive in posting here is quite transparent, and your credibility more than a bit suspect.

Quoted from website: "Discarding all the wishy-washy theory and mathematics, we know from actual use that..."

That logic will not win much respect on this forum. From what I've seen, the regulars care quite a bit about "wishy-washy mathematics".

But my favorites have gotta be these two:
"What happens when condensation forms around the CPU?: Your computer will crash.. Instant reset! Will this cause hardware damage? No."
"It's ironic that a peltier even in a meltdown situation provides protection for your CPU!"

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Unread 03-14-2004, 03:41 PM   #7
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"common forum etiquette." - No. Not common at all. Never been asked to EDIT rather than REPLY before. Been on many forums and never been told to do that. Therefore I suggest you put a BIG WARNING for people like me so we know not to use the REPLY button.

"That logic will not win much respect on this forum. From what I've seen, the regulars care quite a bit about "wishy-washy mathematics" - If the regulars here are like some of the regulars who write all kinds of scare stories about peltier cooling then I certainly won't miss their respect. If all you do is theorise and tell people they can't do this or that because theory dictates - then I won't miss their respect. I actually don't think they're like you suggest here.

With regard to th comments about my website:

I can't count the number of articles I've read on peltier cooling where they conclude that peltier cooling is extremely risky and not worth the effort. And 'YES' there was even one article from an engineer who concluded that peltier cooling can make your CPU even hotter rather than cooling it down.

Condensation:

We have had instances where the insulation was insufficient. Air-leak. We didn't have the computer explode, burst into flames, melt, dissolve, implode as a result. We simply had the odd reset when the rad fans were throttled back.

Peltier meltdown:

Any particular reason that amuses you?

Again.. Speaking from practical experience rather than endless debating and theory.. A peltier can serve to protect the CPU in a meltdown situation.

It certainly protected our P4 2.4ghz 800 HT.

If you would like a demonstration then I suggest you send me an email and I will arrange it for you.
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Unread 03-14-2004, 03:52 PM   #8
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"Feathers, after checking out your website, your motive in posting here is quite transparent, and your credibility more than a bit suspect. " - This is supposed to convey to other forum members that I am perhaps conman.

I suggest you arrange a meeting with me and I will show you how I apply my lack of wishy-washy theory. I have a cool CPU overclocked to 3.7ghz. It's average temp is well below ambient.

Been down to -7 celsius without any condensation and on those few occassions where we had an imperfect seal.. The computer was undamaged.

If you haven't tried a peltier system yourself then I suggest you don't make judgements on the text on my website.

Perhaps you've had a bad experience with peltier cooling? (in which case I'm sorry for you).
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Unread 03-14-2004, 04:10 PM   #9
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Why should H2O-cooling suck without the use of Tec's

I've done both, I've even done all 3 together and I can't think of any reason why liquid cooling needs to have Tec's in order to "not suck".

true that Tec's are nice, but to be honest, the complexities involved with getting a high current adjustable power source for running with them...combined with their(Tec's) very low efficiency factor, it pretty much takes the edge off for me anyhow, as I'm more into the efficiency side of things. Besides, overclocking is more about efficiency, isn't it?
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Unread 03-14-2004, 04:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #Rotor
Why should H2O-cooling suck without the use of Tec's

I've done both, I've even done all 3 together and I can't think of any reason why liquid cooling needs to have Tec's in order to "not suck".

true that Tec's are nice, but to be honest, the complexities involved with getting a high current adjustable power source for running with them...combined with their(Tec's) very low efficiency factor, it pretty much takes the edge off for me anyhow, as I'm more into the efficiency side of things. Besides, overclocking is more about efficiency, isn't it?
He is just trying to sell his products on his website. Save your breath.
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Unread 03-14-2004, 04:26 PM   #11
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hehehe .... trying to do that on a forum populated mostly with those that invented this hobby..... WOW! you(feathers) has guts, I have to give you that. not that there is anything wrong with that, mind you...(having guts, that is...)

this place is like what Sourceforge is to M$.... for lack of a better comparison.
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Unread 03-14-2004, 04:39 PM   #12
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Rotor: I hope you're going to follow Jaydee's orders and ignore any subsequent posts from me? :-)

Every forum closes ranks to defend itself from a new threat.

What's that you're selling at CUSTOM COMPUTERS jaydee? Another forum perhaps?

Rotor:

The comment about watercooling wasn't entirely serious although I do feel strongly about the use of peltiers alongside watercooling. It may be that some people just want a watercooling system because of it's aesthetic appeal (they can be beautiful) and they are a lot of fun to own! Others perhaps just want improved cooling but with reduced noise. Ultimately it's down to personal choice.

The point you raise about power-supply demand/problems isn't really much of a problem anymore.

I actually do get very frustrated by some of the garbage I read about peltiers even from so-called engineers!

Do I have a mission to sell peltier systems?

Yes! I'm sick of seeing my friends (personal friends) with ugly grey boxes and lumps of metal and fans to cool their systems! I have one particular friend who still believes that overclocking is dangerous and will destroy your CPU!

I've been overclocking for many years and never lost a CPU!

I have considerable experience of peltiers and their support systems but this experience only came after I made a choice to ignore all of the negative stories I'd read and try it for myself.

There is nothing on my website which is based on rumours or speculation. It all comes from personal experience.

My own mission is to set the record straight about peltier cooling. Actually I should say watercooling as well - since there are so many users out there who still believe that watercooling is 'too complicated' or 'too risky' !

"there are only 10 kinds of programmers in this world! There's those that understand binary and then there's those that just don't get it at all... " - I like this and I do get it!
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Unread 03-14-2004, 07:27 PM   #13
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Feathers,
I dont know the first thing about using peltiers, except I know what they are, and I dont want to use them. It sounds like you do. Dont quit posting here dude, share your knowledge and you may make a few bucks along the way. Thats cool . Just quit hijacking threads with your comments about how everyones system sucks, they should use peltiers, etc. OK? No hard feelings here.
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Unread 03-14-2004, 07:44 PM   #14
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"He is just trying to sell his products on his website. Save your breath. " - Of course it is illegal to sell one's own products on one's own website. :-)

It's not like I'm in competition with this website. As far as I am aware this is an enthusiast site.. A place for reviews and to discuss extreme-cooling with likeminded people.

Since my company also makes new products then we also make new products available for REVIEW (to this website or any other review site).

I'm sorry if some of you can't deal with the horror of that but that's the way it is.

I don't play dumb point/click scoring games and this 'Edit not reply' rule is pretty-much unique to this forum.

It seems that some people are full of inaccurate gossip and negative thoughts when it comes to extreme-cooling. My website was created to set the record straight and cut through the bullshit.

Theory and textbooks have their place.. So long as the theory becomes practice at some point. I don't think I've ever read a positive article on peltier cooling, or one which didn't tell the reader that 'condensation will DESTROY YOUR PC!'.

My website was created to set the record straight and cut through the bullshit (I wouldn't be surprised if this site was created for the same reason).

If you see that as a bad thing then that's your problem.

If you want to accuse me of trying to con people then it becomes my problem as well.

The information that appears on my site is the result of PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE, testing and measurements.

I am always happy to demonstrate the hardware to non-believers or those who have been brainwashed.
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Unread 03-14-2004, 09:31 PM   #15
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Antibling:

I will avoid hijacking threads..

Does this also mean I can't edit other people's threads?
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Unread 03-14-2004, 09:52 PM   #16
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Hello all, I was looking to get some tips on eliminating condensation. Also just finished my first chiller box. Would like some comments on it. thanks
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Unread 03-14-2004, 10:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corso
Hello all, I was looking to get some tips on eliminating condensation. Also just finished my first chiller box. Would like some comments on it. thanks
There is a whole forum dedicated to TEC on this site. http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=11


Post your questions and TEC comments there and help build up a larger user base there.
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Unread 03-14-2004, 11:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee116
There is a whole forum dedicated to TEC on this site. http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=11


Post your questions and TEC comments there and help build up a larger user base there.
Thank you for that redirect, Jaydee116.

I'd like to post a semi-official ProCooling "mission statement" for those lurkers who might get an incorrect idea of what this community stands for.

The ProCooling community is interested in efficiency, bleeding edge performance, practical application and (most of all) extremely truthful and well documented accurate research into those areas. It doesn't have to be efficient or practical if it's bleeding edge, and so on. But, if you don't have pictures, numbers and reproducible results... be VERY CAREFUL. Certain denizens of these forums will be on your tail; I guarantee that.

So, the criticisms you may face, feathers are from those principles. If you say things without documentation you will face harsh criticism. This especially applies to blanket statements that contradict well researched "truths". If, on the other hand, you can disprove a commonly held belief, you will be lauded.

To be specific... many of us have used TECs or are still using TECs. They are well understood. Can you use a TEC and end up with a warmer CPU because of it? Sure! Undersize, undercool, or undervolt your TEC and it's easy. Can water kill your mobo? Uh, if you think it can't, you don't know what a direct short can do across your DC-DC conversion MOSFETs next to the CPU (maybe newer mobos magically detect short circuits now, but I know one of mine didn't and the magic smoke left it). I could go on, but I'm now responding to snippets of what you said, not the whole text. So, I could be missing critical context. If I have misquoted or misunderstood you, please take this in the vein of constructive criticism rather than any personal attack.

Also, many of the regulars on the board are older curmudgeons, to be blunt. They are quick to jump on someone making mistakes if they think that person is arrogant or hasn't taken the time to do research. On the other hand, we are gathered together to share knowledge, continue research and have fun with computers. Grow a thick skin, have a respectful attitude, a sensitive ear, a slowness to respond and enjoy! Note that this attitude works in RealLife(tm) too.

I hope this helps you understand the community. If this doesn't reflect what you think of our community, speak up and clarify.
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Unread 03-15-2004, 06:38 AM   #19
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Feathers = Corso = Sheep
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Unread 03-15-2004, 08:58 AM   #20
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I'm going to side with feathers, just for a brief moment (bare with me):

To me, it seems like the target is to have an "Extreme" cooling solution, and given how straight water-cooling has become so popular, it may not fall within the meaning of "Extreme". One word makes all the difference.

Personally, I believe that using a "Cascade" block falls under the definition of "Extreme". I'd mention the "Cascade SS" (one of 5?, which I have) and "Cascade XXX" (in development) water blocks, which are the best blocks, period, but there's so few of them.


That aside, feathers here seems to be presenting pelts/TECs from their positive side, and not acknowledging the negatives. That worries me.

A pelt failure (i.e. a junction going bad, a power supply failure, etc) will more than likely kill a CPU, simply because the TEC changes from being a carrier of heat, to a role of being a very good insulator. That of course only applies if the TEC sits between the CPU and water block with a coldplate, aka spacer, in between, which should give the user a few seconds or minutes to react, or an onboard monitoring and protection system to kick in.

The other issue is that while pelt cooling is indeed extreme, it's really not energy efficient, and a phase change system is much more desirable, in that aspect.


So what's this website anyways? How come it isn't within feather's profile?
Quote:
My website was created to set the record straight and cut through the bullshit.
Feathers, you might not be aware, but ProCooling isn't your usual enthusiast site. We strive for the highest level of accuracy, and often get into very technical discussions. To present an idea is fine, but you have to make every effort to present the downside, as much as the upside.

In case you missed it, I'd recomend that you visit the "Testing" forum.

Last edited by bigben2k; 03-15-2004 at 09:04 AM.
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Unread 03-15-2004, 09:35 AM   #21
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Thanks for your post, Brian256.

It does indeed help me to understand this community.

With regard to some of the things stated on my website:

I am well aware of the dangers of water+electronic components. I lost a neon-tube driver recently when a drop of coolant got into the small air-vent of unit.

My text wasn't suggesting that water doesn't kill electronic components. Just that an imperfect insulative seal around a CPU doesn't=instant death for the computer. In our experience it most commonly results in a crash. Again.. This is not based on theory or gossip but from practical experience. How can we produce figures which back up something like that? I guess we could have a poll to find out how many customers lost a motherboard when condensation occured?

"Can you use a TEC and end up with a warmer CPU because of it? Sure! Undersize, undercool, or undervolt your TEC and it's easy" - Can you buy a Swiftcech MCX4000 or Thermalright SP97 to replace your standard issue aluminium heatsink and end up with higher temps than before? Sure... If the heatsink isn't fitted right or you use vaseline instead of thermal transfer compound.

Same applies to watercooling.. How many posts have you read from people who have just switched to water and found their temps aren't any lower? - I read such posts all the time but I don't conclude that watercooling is therefore a waste of time. And yet that is exactly what many so-called experts have concluded about peltier cooling.

I have read countless pieces about peltier cooling with countless pages of facts, graphs and figures to show why it's not worth the effort. Strange then that I have been selling thermo systems to customers for several years and no one has emailed to tell me their mobo was destroyed by condensation or that their peltier destroyed the CPU!

When I started out in the business of peltier cooling - I was simply selling the plates themselves. Over the course of several years we have had great interest from people who want to switch to air-cooled peltier systems. We do all we can to explain to potential customers that air-cooling isn't effective and that water-cooled peltiers are the way to go.

I have found that many people are still afraid of watercooling because they believe it's complicated and/or risky to use. Again, I know from personal experience (and not simply from 2nd-hand theory) that watercooling can be very safe. Of course there are always risks, but those risks can be minimised by using good quality components and by careful installation. And so it is with peltier cooling.

I have a personal mission not just to make people more aware of the non-complexity of a peltier system, but to promote the use of watercooling systems as well.

My website helps to set the record straight about peltier cooling and I can well understand that many of the scare-mongers or misled would certainly object to it!

I hope that in time we will see similar websites with a more positive understanding of peltier cooling.

If any of your old curmudgeons would like to show facts and statistics for mobo death caused by poor thermal insulation then I would be happy to read. If no such facts exist and if all they have is theory then I suggest they actually back up their theory with practical demonstrations. That's certainly how I've learned NOT to be afraid of peltier cooling.

I would also like to see some of their statistics for CPU death caused by a dying peltier.

"Grow a thick skin, have a respectful attitude, a sensitive ear, a slowness to respond and enjoy! Note that this attitude works in RealLife(tm) too. " - Good advice I reckon. Something I should certainly try to remember as much as possible.

:-)
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Unread 03-15-2004, 09:56 AM   #22
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BigBen2k:

Can you give more info on: "I'd mention the "Cascade SS" (one of 5?, which I have) and "Cascade XXX" (in development) water blocks" ?

"That aside, feathers here seems to be presenting pelts/TECs from their positive side, and not acknowledging the negatives. That worries me." - Although you perhaps haven't visited my site yet.. It was created in response to all othe negative scaremongers out there who do nothing but frighten people away from peltier cooling.

I am aware that there are dangers with any extreme-cooling system.. Peltier cooling certainly has an element of risk (I will add words to that effect on my site) but the risks have been greatly exaggerated by many people.

Re: a failing peltier..

Most mobo/cpus have temperature sensors (I know it's been an issue for AMD but not for Intel). It is the user's responsibility to ensure that their mobo/cpu shuts down in the event of thermal overload (I say it's the user's responsibility because such mobos and cpus are easily obtainable with auto shutdown facilities).

An Intel CPU has in-built thermal shutdown at approx 150c (as mentioned on Intel's website).

Let's take my own system as an example:

The mobo has been set to shutdown if the temp goes above 60 celsius.

I use Winbond hardware doctor (running under windows) and it's currently set to shutdown the computer if the CPU reaches 35 celsius (I've had to raise the shutdown temp to 35 because I've just pushed up the core voltage for a new overclock to 3.7ghz). The average CPU temp is 10 celsius but it can rise to 17c when many apps are running.

If the peltier develops a problem (or pelt's PSU) then there will be a temp rise. The system will shutdown and since my pelt's external power supply is controlled by a little ATX Starter device then the computer has full control of the pelt's PSU!

"The other issue is that while pelt cooling is indeed extreme, it's really not energy efficient, and a phase change system is much more desirable, in that aspect." - Agreed... But a suitable peltier and PSU can be bought for £100.

"To present an idea is fine, but you have to make every effort to present the downside, as much as the upside." - Thanks for the advice, Ben.

I will stop by the testing section..
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Unread 03-15-2004, 10:09 AM   #23
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PS. We have had a peltier meltdown (when the waterpump was switched-off). This was before we had the pump and peltier under computer control. The peltier got so hot it melted the lucite top of the DD Maze 3-1 waterblock. It took 1.5 cans of C02 to cool the block down enough to remove it from the computer. Even so, it still bubbles and sizzled when it was dropped in a bowl of water!

The P4 2.4ghz HT 800 was undamaged and is still working to this day.

Perhaps someone would also like to remind us of the dangers of static on sensitive electronic components?

The said P4 chip has also be crushed under a swiftech MCX4000 heatsink (had it's pins bent and they had to be bent back with tweezers). The chip has been dropped onto a graphics card (while being removed from it's socket). It landed pin-side down. The chip has been picked-up and handled by a friend (we thought it was dead at the time due to it's failure to start.. We later discovered the problem was caused by a Bios setting).

The P4 chip has gone through hell and yet it still works perfectly and overclocks from 2.4 to 3.4 ghz!

Now I know that Static can kill sensitive components (I have a background in digital electronics) but theory dictates that a P4 chip probably wouln't survive any of these catastrophies.

My point is that until you've actually been there and done it then you can theorise all you like! Doesn't mean that your theory is always right or that the end result is always the same!
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Unread 03-15-2004, 10:10 AM   #24
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If anyone would like to see pics of the melted DD Maze 3-1?

The peltier is still sandwiched between the coldplate and waterblock..

:-)
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Unread 03-15-2004, 10:12 AM   #25
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Quote:
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If anyone would like to see pics of the melted DD Maze 3-1?

The peltier is still sandwiched between the coldplate and waterblock..

:-)
Of course! Carnage rules!
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