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Unread 10-15-2004, 11:05 AM   #176
Lothar5150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobuchi
The area between the those three city centre points on the map. Uh huh.

What does the "Green Zone" signify then? Extra fine?

Listen: 2 months after the pulverising Baghdad got from Desert Storm (I remember the catch-phrase was "bombed back into the stone age"), the Ba'athists had electric power back at full service. 2 months after the US occupies Baghdad there are still coalition-set booby traps in substations and former workers are flatly forbidden from returning to work. Restoration of power had been contracted out. Today Baghdad still hasn't pre-invasion levels of electric service.

You can find pics of a sturdy new plywood schoolhouse built by twinkling-eyed Americans in Iraq, and you can find pics of the central elementary textbook warehouse a column of flame, or of a collage turned into an army base.

The occupation is screwing with people's lives.
No, try area in the cities,

Green Zone was address in previous post

From my experience most of the country looked like it was set back 1000 or so. However, that was due to sanctions not bombing.

I spent over a month in the town where thoughts pictures taken. Moreover, everyday the kids and the parents came out to greet us and offer us tea. So I'd pipe down because you really have no clue as to what the situation on the ground looks like.
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Unread 10-15-2004, 11:40 AM   #177
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Of course they would. Hospitality is a big thing in Arab culture, and frankly most of the population just wants to get along and get their lives back on track.

Nevertheless the occupations, and the sanctions before then, and our support of a certified grade A dictator before then is messing with people's lives.
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Unread 10-15-2004, 12:11 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nexxo
As a point of interest, did you know Saddam used weapons sold to him by the US to do that? US Shipments to Iraq went on even after Saddam ordered the gassing of the Kurdish town of Halabja, in which at least 5000 men, women and children died. The atrocity, which shocked the world, took place in March 1988 but a month later the components and materials of weapons of mass destruction were continuing to arrive in Baghdad from the US.

...
Thanks for the history lesson, some of us remember that because we where alive when it happened.

I try to go easy on the Britt’s because I fought alongside the Desert Rats. Nevertheless, you are asking for this one.

If you want to go back to original sin, the lets talk about the European Colonial Period. You (UK), French, Belgians, Germans and Dutch are all to blame for the political shit holes called the Middle East and Africa. You divided the borders based on your own economic need. You used the people for there resources natural and human and you didn't bother to offer the locals you used citizenship or protection under your laws.

You created artificial boarder with ethnic groups who hated one another and then put strong men in charge so you could still exploit them after your colonial period ended. Almost all the problems now in that part of the world can be traced back to your colonial period.

With that said, at least the UK left behind good schools, a common language, rail systems, cannels and roads. Which is more than I can say for the rest colonial powers.
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Unread 10-15-2004, 12:20 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulp35
....... I am going to vote for the first time this year ....
That is great!
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Unread 10-15-2004, 01:32 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothar5150
Thanks for the history lesson, some of us remember that because we where alive when it happened.

I try to go easy on the Britt’s because I fought alongside the Desert Rats. Nevertheless, you are asking for this one.

If you want to go back to original sin, the lets talk about the European Colonial Period. You (UK), French, Belgians, Germans and Dutch are all to blame for the political shit holes called the Middle East and Africa. You divided the borders based on your own economic need. You used the people for there resources natural and human and you didn't bother to offer the locals you used citizenship or protection under your laws.

You created artificial boarder with ethnic groups who hated one another and then put strong men in charge so you could still exploit them after your colonial period ended. Almost all the problems now in that part of the world can be traced back to your colonial period.

With that said, at least the UK left behind good schools, a common language, rail systems, cannels and roads. Which is more than I can say for the rest colonial powers.
Don't feel the need to hold back. First (for clarification), I'm Dutch. Second, I agree with everything you say (you may notice in my history lesson I refer to the UK and the Netherlands when it comes to passing out the blame. When it comes to colonial history, the Dutch can pride themselves on being particularly cruel and abusive --most "efficient" slave traders, last ones to give this up, pulling off some serious war crimes in Indonesia after we were liberated from German occupation --I guess the Nazis taught us well).

My point was that our nations are all to blame. We are not swooping in like heros to save the Iraqis from oppression and bring them the shining light of democracy; the best we can say is that we are trying to clean up our shitty mess that we created in the first place, and that we share a good bit of responsibility for those mediapathic pictures of mass graves. So let's stop pretending that we are such good guys, and that the Iraqis are so grateful to us, and have no reason whatsoever to hate our guts.
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Unread 10-15-2004, 02:14 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nexxo
Don't feel the need to hold back. First (for clarification), I'm Dutch. Second, I agree with everything you say (you may notice in my history lesson I refer to the UK and the Netherlands when it comes to passing out the blame. When it comes to colonial history, the Dutch can pride themselves on being particularly cruel and abusive --most "efficient" slave traders, last ones to give this up, pulling off some serious war crimes in Indonesia after we were liberated from German occupation --I guess the Nazis taught us well).

My point was that our nations are all to blame. We are not swooping in like heros to save the Iraqis from oppression and bring them the shining light of democracy; the best we can say is that we are trying to clean up our shitty mess that we created in the first place, and that we share a good bit of responsibility for those mediapathic pictures of mass graves. So let's stop pretending that we are such good guys, and that the Iraqis are so grateful to us, and have no reason whatsoever to hate our guts.
Certainly, America did turn a blind eye to many things during the cold war. Something that none of us is very proud of as Bill pointed out in his earlier post. However, that does not make us bad guys for taking a stand on freedom now. As far as the average Iraqi is concerned...they are happy we removed Saddam and much of the problems you see right now are due to outside insurgence.

The pictures I posted are all from the cameras of the people in my unit. Since it is the digital camera era, we all swapped photos. All the pictures were taken over several months. What most amazes me is that several seconds of footage on the news trump’s guys coming back and telling you things are not as bad as the news makes them out to be. Moreover, if they show you pictures you still don’t believe it.

You would think people would be a little more sophisticated and realize the news organizations have an agenda. It is not a right or left, liberal or conservative agenda, it is to sensationalize events so you tune in or read the article so they can make money.

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Unread 10-15-2004, 03:26 PM   #182
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LOL News organizations = ratings/money. Anyone remember the toppling of the Saddam statue? Remember how the Iraqi's were having some fun with that? Remember the beginning of that clip and the end of that news clip? Did you know there was a nice gun battle for a few hours inbetween that was cut out of that whole clip or selectively cut out to sensationalize that event?
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Unread 10-15-2004, 03:28 PM   #183
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I appreciate that, but the people who go there to fight and try and rebuild the country are subjective too. They believe in what they're doing --they have to, otherwise why put yourself in the middle of it-- and have a set of beliefs and predispositions that made them sign up in the first place. Don't think I don't respect your courage or your convictions, but you are not more objective than the press.
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Unread 10-15-2004, 03:37 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nexxo
As a point of interest, did you know Saddam used weapons sold to him by the US to do that? US Shipments to Iraq went on even after Saddam ordered the gassing of the Kurdish town of Halabja, in which at least 5000 men, women and children died. The atrocity, which shocked the world, took place in March 1988 but a month later the components and materials of weapons of mass destruction were continuing to arrive in Baghdad from the US.

Make no mistake. For a decade we nurtured the monster that we later felt forced to slay, and his victims will still remember who fed him.

Let's see what else we sold him:

The U.S. was officially neutral regarding the Iran-Iraq war, and claimed that it armed neither side. Iran depended on U.S.-origin weapons, however, and sought them from Israel, Europe, Asia, and South America. Iraq started the war with a large Soviet-supplied arsenal, but needed additional weaponry as the conflict wore on.

By mid-1982, Iraq was on the defensive against Iranian human-wave attacks. Having decided that an Iranian victory would not serve its interests, the US began supporting Iraq: measures already underway to upgrade U.S.-Iraq relations were accelerated, and in February 1982 the State Department removed Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism. (It had been included several years earlier because of ties with several Palestinian nationalist groups, not Islamicists sharing the worldview of Al-Qaeda.)

But it was Donald Rumsfeld's trip to Baghdad which opened of the floodgates during 1985-90 for lucrative U.S. weapons exports--some $1.5 billion worth-- including chemical/biological and nuclear weapons equipment and technology, along with critical components for missile delivery systems for all of the above. Some 771 weapons export licenses for Iraq were approved during this six year period by the U.S. Department of Commerce.

Iraq received massive external financial support from the Gulf states, and assistance through loan programs from the U.S. The White House and State Department pressured the Export-Import Bank to provide Iraq with financing, to enhance its credit standing and enable it to obtain loans from other international financial institutions. The U.S. restored formal relations with Iraq in November 1984, but the U.S. had begun, several years earlier, to provide it with intelligence and military support (in secret and contrary to this country's official neutrality) in accordance with policy directives from President Ronald Reagan.

Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.

Classified US Defense Department documents show that Britain sold Iraq the drug pralidoxine, an antidote to nerve gas, in March 1992, after the end of the Gulf war. Pralidoxine can be reverse engineered to create nerve gas.

The Senate committee's reports on 'US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq', undertaken in 1992 in the wake of the Gulf war, give the date and destination of all US exports. The reports show, for example, that on May 2, 1986, two batches of bacillus anthracis -- the micro-organism that causes anthrax -- were shipped to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, along with two batches of the bacterium clostridium botulinum, the agent that causes deadly botulism poisoning.

One batch each of salmonella and E coli were shipped to the Iraqi State Company for Drug Industries on August 31, 1987. Other shipments went from the US to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission on July 11, 1988; the Department of Biology at the University of Basrah in November 1989; the Department of Microbiology at Baghdad University in June 1985; the Ministry of Health in April 1985 and Officers' City, a military complex in Baghdad, in March and April 1986.

Iraq has deployed Israeli-developed, sold-to-China, then sold-to-Iraq PL-8 missiles in the no-fly zones. A Chilean arms manufacturer sold Saddam deadly cluster bombs--reportedly with technical assistance from U.S. companies, The US allowed Sarkis to sell Hughes and Bell helicopters. The U.S. government approved the sale after Iraq promised that they would only be used for civilian purposes, but the helicopters were used as transportation during Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Same with US-sold military trucks. Eighteen American corporations provided Saudi Arabia with military hardware which included TOW missiles. The Saudis then delivered MK-84 2,000 pound bombs to Iraq in violation of the Arms Export Control Act. And former US officials report that both Israel and the Dutch company Delft made unauthorized sales of US thermal-imaging tank sights to, among others, China. The sights were installed on China's 69 MOD-2 tanks, some of which were sold to Iraq. It's a small world after all...

Nobody pitched a fit during El Salvador. All to fight the Communist at the time. Yes it came that close to American borders. Russian Communist during that time had this thing for taking over countries that couldn't stand on their own. Middle East was a prime target for them after UK got done taking what they could get out of them.
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Unread 10-15-2004, 03:42 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nexxo
I appreciate that, but the people who go there to fight and try and rebuild the country are subjective too. They believe in what they're doing --they have to, otherwise why put yourself in the middle of it-- and have a set of beliefs and predispositions that made them sign up in the first place. Don't think I don't respect your courage or your convictions, but you are not more objective than the press.

I'd have to say your wrong. You havn't been there and these guys have first hand experience that wasn't selectively fed to them by the media.
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Unread 10-15-2004, 03:51 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nexxo
I appreciate that, but the people who go there to fight and try and rebuild the country are subjective too. They believe in what they're doing --they have to, otherwise why put yourself in the middle of it-- and have a set of beliefs and predispositions that made them sign up in the first place. Don't think I don't respect your courage or your convictions, but you are not more objective than the press.
You're right I'm truly guilty of believing that every man woman and child on this earth deserves the blessings of liberty…I am an American they brain wash us like that
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Unread 10-15-2004, 04:23 PM   #187
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Hey Hey Hey, Do blame me for bad facts, I just copied and pasted from the Email. I liked the shock value.

Any ideas on my church voting area conundrum?
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Unread 10-15-2004, 04:25 PM   #188
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By the look of some of the replies in this thread , It Makes me think they are just narrow minded and are not capable comprehending the biger picture in the world :/

The Age of Liberty

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0410150826.asp





The pictures from IRAQ that you won't see in the NEWS


http://www.pbase.com/kburch/the_pict...ee_in_the_news


PS: I wont let you know who i,m voting for ,Thats a private matter , But i can tell you this, It wont be Kerry or nader
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Unread 10-15-2004, 04:45 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulp35
Hey Hey Hey, Do blame me for bad facts, I just copied and pasted from the Email. I liked the shock value.

Any ideas on my church voting area conundrum?
Don’t worry that is in a church. In many small towns, the local church was traditionally the only "public" building. Just go vote and be sure to read the directions carefully
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Unread 10-15-2004, 04:56 PM   #190
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what about the public school that is 5min. away apposed to the church that is 10min. ?
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Unread 10-15-2004, 05:09 PM   #191
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whole lotta propaganda in those schools, gotta be careful
but in a church - pure unadulterated gospel
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Unread 10-15-2004, 05:17 PM   #192
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I got a free quantum mechanics lesson in a Louisiana Baptist church once. Preacher went on and on about the uncertainty of scientists as proven by Heisenberg. I told the preacher afterwards that if he could master physical chemistry without ever even opening a book that I was sure I could do the same thing with Christianity and that I wouldn't be needing his services in the future.
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Unread 10-15-2004, 05:33 PM   #193
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have to love deductive reasoning
too cool pH
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Unread 10-15-2004, 06:07 PM   #194
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You guys are too much...

Nice post nOv1c3, I obviously agree with the Paul Kengor article.
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Unread 10-15-2004, 07:54 PM   #195
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Speaking about the news media and the election coverage:

Wow John Stewart was on Crossfire today and ripped pretty much everyone in the mainstream news media a new one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTV.com (lol)
Jon Stewart Bitchslaps CNN's 'Crossfire' Show
10.15.2004 6:43 PM EDT

In what could well be the strangest and most refreshing media moment of the election season, "The Daily Show" host Jon Stewart turned up on a live broadcast of CNN's "Crossfire" Friday and accused the mainstream media — and his hosts in particular — of being soft and failing to do their duty as journalists to keep politicians and the political process honest.

Reaching well outside his usual youthful "Daily Show" demo, Stewart took to "Crossfire" to promote his new book, "America (The Book): A Citizen's Guide to Democracy Inaction" (see "Jon Stewart Writes A History Textbook That — At Last! — Features Nudity"), but instead of pushing the tome, Stewart used his time to verbally slap the network and the media for being "dishonest" and "doing a disservice" to the American public. After co-host Tucker Carlson suggested that Stewart went easy on Senator John Kerry when the candidate was a guest on "The Daily Show," Stewart unloaded on "Crossfire," calling hosts Carlson and Paul Begala "partisan hacks" and chiding them for not raising the level of discourse on their show beyond sloganeering.

"What you do is not honest. What you do is partisan hackery," Stewart said. "You have a responsibility to the public discourse, and you fail miserably.

"I watch your show every day, and it kills me. It's so painful to watch," Stewart added as it became apparent that the comedian was not joking. He went on to hammer the network, and the media in general, for its coverage of the presidential debates. Stewart said it was a disservice to viewers to immediately seek reaction from campaign insiders and presidential cheerleaders following the debates, noting that the debates' famed "Spin Alley" should be called "Deception Lane."

"The thing is, we need your help," Stewart said. "Right now, you're helping the politicians and the corporations and we're left out there to mow our lawns."

While the audience seemed to be behind Stewart, Begala and Carlson were both taken aback. The hosts tried to feed Stewart set-up lines hoping to draw him into a more light-hearted shtick, but Stewart stayed on point and hammered away at the show, the hosts, and the state of political journalism. Carlson grew increasingly frustrated, at first noting that the segment wasn't "funny," and later verbally sparring with the comedian.

"You're not very much fun," Carlson said. "Do you like lecture people like this, or do you come over to their house and sit and lecture them; they're not doing the right thing, that they're missing their opportunities, evading their responsibilities?"

"If I think they are," Stewart retorted.

The conversation reached its most heated moment when Carlson said to Stewart, "I do think you're more fun on your show," to which Stewart replied, "You're as big a dick on your show as you are on any show."

"That went great," Stewart could be heard sarcastically saying as the show went off the air (a transcript of the show is available on CNN.com).
I have a 96mb avi file I can upload if people want to watch talking heads from the left and the right get toasted. It was like a forum flame war in real life
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Unread 10-15-2004, 07:55 PM   #196
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I'd like to see where everyone places on the political compass test... See one of my previous posts or search "Political Compass" in google. I placed right near Ghandi
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Unread 10-15-2004, 07:59 PM   #197
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that john stewart thing is awesome mail me it a "the.lipster [at] gmail.com"
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Unread 10-15-2004, 08:07 PM   #198
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http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/poli...=-1.88&Y=-0.72
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Unread 10-15-2004, 10:56 PM   #199
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5.00/-5.60 (Libertarian right just as you'd expect). Some of those questions are a little arbitrary though in the USA. For example I agree with a local or state government having the right to tax citizens to fund a museum (if the local people approve it then why not?) but I don't see that as a legitimate function of the US federal govt.

I am uploading a compressed version of that crossfire episode now. It should be done in about 5-6 minutes. It's the most surprising things I have ever seen on tv this year (Janet Jackson's nipple excluded). You can find it at:

http://phaestus.procooling.com/stewart-crossfire/

Don't spread the link outside of the Proforums too widely; I don't want to eat up all the site's bandwidth hosting this 36mb file to the world at large.
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Unread 10-15-2004, 11:50 PM   #200
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What compression does that clip use ph?... It comes out all strange coloured, like someone ran a solarize filter on it...
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